Subject: [TR] weird distributor "out of phase" problem

From: Tim Gaines <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2015 18:45:45 -0400 (EDT)

I need help with a weird situation that arose as I tried to bring my 1980 Spitfire back to life after 3 years in the garage.  The last time it ran, the engine would cycle between excessive rpms and then a near stall under no load.  Under load, it almost always stalled.  I had a lot going on at the time and devoted whatever free time I had to my TR6 (Herman van den Akker's transmission conversion).  So, this past week I put time in with the Spit.  I took off the Stromberg carb and the manifolds, cleaned everything up, replaced gaskets (including the manifold gasket), checked all the vacuum lines, and even repaired the vacuum retard unit.  I drained out the old oil and replaced it with new and put on a new filter.  I pulled the old spark plugs and squirted some light oil into the cylinders.  Over the next few days I was able to rotate the engine by hand a few degrees and then completely with the starter.  I checked compression, and though it wasn't great, it seemed good enough to get it started (120, 105, 110, 110).  The carb is one with the auto choke.  It actually seemed very clean inside, but I did find that the auto choke body was a little loose.  I figured that must be my problem, and I made sure it was tight after replacing the gasket there.  I put everything back on (with some gas in the float chamber), drained the little bit of old gas out of the tank and replaced with new and a new fuel filter, got new spark plugs and checked the ignition for sparks (fine).

On my first attempt at a start, I really thought I had it.  I got a good sputter.  But after that, I never came close.  Today, in total exasperation, I checked the distributor (with cylinder 1 at tdc for sure) and found it to be 180 degrees out of phase.  That surprised me because I don't ever remember taking it out before.  But, my memory isn't what it used to be, and I figured I must have looked at it 3 years ago.  Now, absolutely sure that I was close to getting it started, I tried to put the distributor back in the right way.  After 90 minutes of not being able to seat it, I was near crazy.  At that point I rotated it 180 degrees to the WRONG orientation, and it went right in, no trouble at all!  So, I removed the outer channel that the distributor shaft slides into, and that allowed me to clearly see the slot I was trying to hit.  I could see that the distributor dog was NEVER going to fit the slot the right way; it was nearly 1/8" off.  That means that it NEVER was in the slot in that orientation!
 
So, I've reached two conclusions, one that I'm sure of but very surprised at.  There is only one way to put in my distributor, a Lucas electronic ignition model.  Was it made to go in only one way?!  The other conclusion is that somehow the timing chain must have slipped, maybe on my first attempt to start the engine, to where it ended up just about 180 degrees out of phase.  That would account for my problem, right?

So, am I thinking straight here?  If so, I need to go after the timing chain next.

Thanks for listening,

Tim Gaines
Clinton, SC
1974 TR6
1980 Spitfire  

** [email-masked] **

Archive: http://www.team.net/archive

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From: Tim Gaines <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2015 23:47:46 -0400 (EDT)

Thanks to all who have ruled out my timing chain theory.  I'm relieved I don't have to get into that!  Though I WAS sure at the time that I had cylinder #1 at tdc on the compression stroke, I am backtracking now.  I had been checking the clearances on all of the valves and after that I really thought I had cycled back to the compression stroke on #1 but . . .  I guess I'll find out tomorrow when I go out and take a look.

My big surprise was that the distributor would only fit in one orientation.  That would be a very good design I guess, but I had always heard that it was very easy to get it wrong.  Was it really designed that way, or is there something special (damage) about mine?

Thanks again,
Tim
    
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dixie4" <[email-masked]>
To: "Tim Gaines" <[email-masked]>, [email-masked]
Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2015 11:28:02 PM
Subject: Re: [TR] weird distributor "out of phase" problem

I would remove the rocker cover and check that you are indeed on the exhaust 
sroke or compression stroke.
It sounds to me that the reason you are 180 deg out is that you are on the 
exhaust stroke.

Adrian
Wales UK

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tim Gaines" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2015 10:45 PM
Subject: [TR] weird distributor "out of phase" problem

>I need help with a weird situation that arose as I tried to bring my 1980 
>Spitfire back to life after 3 years in the garage.  The last time it ran, 
>the engine would cycle between excessive rpms and then a near stall under 
>no load.  Under load, it almost always stalled.  I had a lot going on at 
>the time and devoted whatever free time I had to my TR6 (Herman van den 
>Akker's transmission conversion).  So, this past week I put time in with 
>the Spit.  I took off the Stromberg carb and the manifolds, cleaned 
>everything up, replaced gaskets (including the manifold gasket), checked 
>all the vacuum lines, and even repaired the vacuum retard unit.  I drained 
>out the old oil and replaced it with new and put on a new filter.  I pulled 
>the old spark plugs and squirted some light oil into the cylinders.  Over 
>the next few days I was able to rotate the engine by hand a few degrees and 
>then completely with the starter.  I checked compression, and though it 
>wasn't great, it seemed good enough to get i
> t started (120, 105, 110, 110).  The carb is one with the auto choke.  It 
> actually seemed very clean inside, but I did find that the auto choke body 
> was a little loose.  I figured that must be my problem, and I made sure it 
> was tight after replacing the gasket there.  I put everything back on 
> (with some gas in the float chamber), drained the little bit of old gas 
> out of the tank and replaced with new and a new fuel filter, got new spark 
> plugs and checked the ignition for sparks (fine).
>
> On my first attempt at a start, I really thought I had it.  I got a good 
> sputter.  But after that, I never came close.  Today, in total 
> exasperation, I checked the distributor (with cylinder 1 at tdc for sure) 
> and found it to be 180 degrees out of phase.  That surprised me because I 
> don't ever remember taking it out before.  But, my memory isn't what it 
> used to be, and I figured I must have looked at it 3 years ago.  Now, 
> absolutely sure that I was close to getting it started, I tried to put the 
> distributor back in the right way.  After 90 minutes of not being able to 
> seat it, I was near crazy.  At that point I rotated it 180 degrees to the 
> WRONG orientation, and it went right in, no trouble at all!  So, I removed 
> the outer channel that the distributor shaft slides into, and that allowed 
> me to clearly see the slot I was trying to hit.  I could see that the 
> distributor dog was NEVER going to fit the slot the right way; it was 
> nearly 1/8" off.  That means that it NEVER was in the slot
> in that orientation!
>
> So, I've reached two conclusions, one that I'm sure of but very surprised 
> at.  There is only one way to put in my distributor, a Lucas electronic 
> ignition model.  Was it made to go in only one way?!  The other conclusion 
> is that somehow the timing chain must have slipped, maybe on my first 
> attempt to start the engine, to where it ended up just about 180 degrees 
> out of phase.  That would account for my problem, right?
>
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>
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---

From: Roger Elliott <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 13:08:22 -0500 (GMT-05:00)

On my 80 Spitfire, there is nothing that prevents the cap being turned 180 degrees.  There is an indentation on the cap to orient it, but nothing it has to fit over on the body - until I added an advance.

Another possibility, if you had the wires off, you could have put them on 180 degrees off.  

But as others have said make sure you have the number one cylinder at TDC.

Roger 

-----Original Message-----
>From: Tim Gaines <[email-masked]>
>Sent: Mar 15, 2015 5:45 PM
>To: [email-masked]
>I need help with a weird situation that arose as I tried to bring my 1980 Spitfire back to life after 3 years in the garage.  The last time it ran, the engine would cycle between excessive rpms and then a near stall under no load.  Under load, it almost always stalled.  I had a lot going on at the time and devoted whatever free time I had to my TR6 (Herman van den Akker's transmission conversion).  So, this past week I put time in with the Spit.  I took off the Stromberg carb and the manifolds, cleaned everything up, replaced gaskets (including the manifold gasket), checked all the vacuum lines, and even repaired the vacuum retard unit.  I drained out the old oil and replaced it with new and put on a new filter.  I pulled the old spark plugs and squirted some light oil into the cylinders.  Over the next few days I was able to rotate the engine by hand a few degrees and then completely with the starter.  I checked compression, and though it wasn't great, it seemed good enough to get i
> t started (120, 105, 110, 110).  The carb is one with the auto choke.  It actually seemed very clean inside, but I did find that the auto choke body was a little loose.  I figured that must be my problem, and I made sure it was tight after replacing the gasket there.  I put everything back on (with some gas in the float chamber), drained the little bit of old gas out of the tank and replaced with new and a new fuel filter, got new spark plugs and checked the ignition for sparks (fine).
>