Subject: [TR] Problem Gas?

From: "Rick" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2013 13:21:40 -0700

Untreated ethanol-gasoline mixtures segregate over a few months. The
gasoline phase is deprived of the ethanol, lowering its octane. The ethanol
phase is hydroscopic, and in the presence of humid air, will absorb water,
which coalesces into blobs and sinks to the bottom of the tank, just where
the fuel tap is located. Our problem in the vintage car/bike world is that
we use them infrequently and often store them over the winter, when time and
humid air is working against us. Ethanol is not going away, so our solution
to the problem is to adopt the discipline used by other seasonal motorized
enthusiasts (boaters and skimobilers come to mind).

1. If you think there is ANY chance that the gas you are pumping into the
tank will remain there for more than 60 days, use a stabilizing additive. 

2. When preparing the vehicle for winter storage, leave one-quarter tank of
stabilized fuel in the tank. This may be controversial, but I believe it
discourages rusting. I usually drain the bowls on the bikes because it is so
easy, and leave the TR3A bowls alone.

3. At spring start-up, drain a pint or so of fuel from the tanks (trivial if
you have an electric fuel pump) into a transparent container and check for
water blobs and debris. Repeat this step until the fuel is clear. Decant and
then filter the extracted fuel with a paper filter and pour it into your
family car. Fill the tank with fresh fuel (with an additive if step 1
applies) and enjoy the season.

My vehicles are stored untouched for 7 months each winter, in a dry garage
but with nearly constant rain outside. Since using StaBil three years ago in
the fall, my fuel at spring start-up tests clear, with no water
contamination.

Rick in Seattle

1960 TR3A

1970 BSA 441 Victor Special

1975 Norton Commando 850 Mk3 

** [email-masked] **

Archive: http://www.team.net/archive

---

From: "Gary Klein" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2013 17:17:03 -0400

Scott,

I don't think they are.  If my cars sit for more than a few weeks, they run
horribly without treatment.  Same for the mower and snow blower.  I've
resorted to using Techron or SeaFoam to keep the systems clean.  PIA gas!

Gary

'75 TR6

'80 TR8

Severn, MD

Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2013 01:08:48 +0000 (UTC)

From: [email-masked]

To: Triumph Mail List <[email-masked]>

Subject: [TR] Fwd:  problem gas?

Our local British Car shop is swearing that all of the problems they are
experiencing is due to Ethanol.  He told me that he sees the seperation of
the gas and ethenol, and that it is different colors  This can happen in a
few days (shelf life of E10 is a few weeks while gas is much longer).  He
says that it is gummnig up needles, damaging gas pumps and in essense
making his and other garages that service our cars misserable.  I am
surprised no one else has made this statement when John raised this
question.  Is our local shop making way too much of this?

Scott Suhring

Mechanicsburg, PA

'70 TR6

'59 TR3

---

From: "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2013 18:14:41 -0500 s=q20121106; t=1370992483; bh=fkKlrYiKcWjlkWhVPST6WmThk/W4j/MvuX94bCjzJIA=; h=Received:Received:To:From:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=p6MVWmh82KWhbcNBKHUkB4o+/wQaMmhwwcQLEP5r6NDLGs9BXQQmR6um0guaWOKNI 5h1uvYvtGZnMWcLneELDs1r1zo9h6Gs4+ffn+8ZJd3pskYZn36Qr13q759H2EcFzjT ab4pfUUNCbJrA6Uj/qqIxpJf3BPKzZvzLLaWk5Oq5uzdFv4qOCZsQ9BelKu2ZGiJRd ppVZqZ1dtyFjGroLFI4QfsWJs5h1cioUX9Zgr5UzjdjoXJ8sY13iSvp/7ruqUhaNPa TcsTitZJqRRjlGQOlu3+kaif4tMdbq6ktUXYdCi5QR8mbGCzrOhvQhvaVhnkDEJLee 3Z20fG+55A4Lg==

Rick!  It rains in Seattle?????   No!!
;-)

Sent from my Verizon Wireless Phone

----- Reply message -----
From: "Rick" <[email-masked]>
To: "'Triumphs'" <[email-masked]>
Subject: [TR] Problem Gas?
Date: Tue, Jun 11, 2013 3:21 pm

 

Rick in Seattle

1960 TR3A

---

From: "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2013 18:59:18 -0500 s=q20121106; t=1370995160; bh=YR2W8JsPSP9DWkErhaifIBu97R948XWeAD1+al91YBA=; h=Received:Received:To:From:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=neyrwbcz5zZSkRtru6bon4Eyp8uW1fmtGC1V3jUyIauBoNBrCQpXVpHD8awhgydsv Dt3+i816c38ZthP7zhybea/Ic1aUVz6icdho5X4KNa8b3jA/hnka27Ozbig29LstWn sbMETP+jYKQ7/8/bsTdPGoANcDPlhc0rbZmaSEYnvhuHYl9USQfzEKytngbFP4139I vdIyqOjhTKwf5rSejJ6PTV59C/s4FpQgPBf/xyWHLbeUGYGiXTme1MKED7xsRWSRwW VXSSxnxbkyQ3lSyt0DP5Y9uene22eLTHzpQ/6PgAD0ie0E3DGwHmnodbZClIMYaewX xO1qLOu4t+YdQ==

No.

----- Reply message -----
From: "Gary Klein" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Subject: [TR] Fwd:  problem gas?
Date: Tue, Jun 11, 2013 4:17 pm

Scott,

Gary

'75 TR6

'80 TR8

Severn, MD

Scott Suhring

Mechanicsburg, PA

'70 TR6

'59 TR3

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2013 07:15:36 -0400 (EDT)

Interesting.  My cars sit for months at a time and fire right up.  No 
issues.  My chipper/shredder sits for sit to nine months and fires reluctantly 
but runs fine once started.

Are you sure it's the gas?

Dave

---

From: "Gary Klein" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2013 09:39:47 -0400

Pretty certain.  The carbs idle jets in the mower/snowblower/generator
become clogged and the engines will not idle correctly, if at all. 
Starting is a PIA.  The mower would not idle and Id have to increase the
throttle slightly to get it to idle but even then, it would hunt.  Had to
take off the carbs in each case and clean them and that's when I discovered
the problem.

My TR6 sits the most and it will start but it runs like crap and like the
mower, needs some choke to idle.  I started using SeaFoam in it last year
and it helped but not completely.  After I complete a few honeydew
projects, I plan on removing and cleaning the carbs as I expect their idle
circuits as clogged as well.

The TR8 gets the most use and for the most part its OK.   I have
experienced a strange loss of power situation.  The engine will not develop
enough power to maintain even 55 mph.  I think, but have not verified,
that perhaps one carb float valve may be sticking.  This occurred last year
at the beginning of the driving season and once again before heading off to
the Gathering in April.  What I did was to run a high concentration of
Techron in the tank and it stopped the problem.  Is it the gas in this
case?  Maybe or maybe not but Im thinking about removing the carbs and
inspect them on the 8 after I get the 6 sorted out.

So from my experience, I am fairly certain in at least the power equipment,
it's the gas and I expect it's also a problem with the cars.

Gary

---------------

Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2013 07:53:59 -0400
From: "Jerry Van Vlack" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>, <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [TR] Fwd:  problem gas?
	reply-type=original

I have the same experience, car sits all winter with the gas that remained
from the fall and fires up and runs fine at first spring start.
Are you sure it's the gas?

JVV

---

From: Q <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2013 07:35:03 -0700 (PDT)

I have several TR's that I have been running on ethanol mix fuel for quite a few years here in California.  There is no doubt that this fuel damages rubber components.  The Sate government said that it would not effect anything built after the late 70's when it was first introduced but I have had several newer fuel lines develop pin holes.  If you happen to have some older fuel lines laying around the garage you will notice that the part numbers keep changing as they modify the materials.

My latest "find" was the overflow line in a 1976 TR7.  It was completely wasted.  Fuel would pour out of it under no pressure other than gravity from the inch of fuel above the line.  The 1981 TR7 had the same problem when I bought it last year.

Generally I replace all the rubber components on any car that I buy and have been doing so for years.  Once that is done I have not had any issues other than reduced power/mileage due to the lower BTU content per gallon.

All of my cars have been converted to use unleaded fuelor were built to run on unleaded fuel.

Edward Hamer
Petaluma CA

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2013 11:38:38 -0400 (EDT)

I've been told by folks in the industry that butanol also does not attack 
the rubber components in the fuel system the way ethanol does.

But will it be economically viable?  Ethanol is on the cusp.  Further 
processing suggest that butanol will not be.

Dave

In a message dated 6/12/2013 9:28:11 AM Central Daylight Time, 
[email-masked] writes: 
> From Wikipedia:
> One liter of ethanol contain 21.1 MJ, a liter of methanol 15.8 MJ and a
> liter of gasoline approximately 32.6 MJ. In other words, for the same
> energy content as one liter or one gallon of gasoline, one needs 1.6
> liters/gallons of ethanol and 2.1 liters/gallons of methanol.
> 
> The one to watch is butanol -- the 4-carbon alcohol.  This one has energy
> density similar to gasoline and easier storage/transport.  The biofuels
> guys are working now on conventional or enzymatic cracking techniques to
> take ethanol to butanol.

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2013 16:27:57 -0400 (EDT)

As if the petroleum industry isn't subsidized...

My reference was in Energy sustainability.  The energy put into making the 
ethanol is either a little more or a little less than the energy you get out 
of it depending on what study you look at.

Dave

In a message dated 6/12/2013 11:20:02 AM Central Daylight Time, 
[email-masked] writes: 
> I don't want to turn this into a political discussion (and won't 
> participate if it does) but I don't see how anything as heavily subsidized by the 
> government as ethanol fuel production in this country is, could be viewed as 
> anywhere near the cusp of economic viability.

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2013 20:41:41 +0000 (UTC)

----- Original Message -----
> From: [email-masked]
> To: [email-masked]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2013 3:27:57 PM
> Subject: Re: [TR] problem gas?

Study, Schmudy.  If you can't run the plant on ethanol, it's a scam.

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2013 16:43:44 -0400 (EDT)

Butanol looks promising but I think his statement is a bit over optimistic. 
 The wiki article specifies a 14.6:a A/F ratio for gasoline and 11.1:1 for 
Butanol.  The car will run but it will be a bit lean.

For alcohol fuels to be viable economically they will have to develop 
techniques to use cellulosic materials rather than just corn syrup.  As a friend 
of mine says, extracting hydrocarbons from cellulose is like trying to 
extract cement back out of concrete.  It can be done but it takes a lot more 
capital investment.  

Dave (staying technical)

In a message dated 6/12/2013 11:44:59 AM Central Daylight Time, 
[email-masked] writes: 
> Dave, yes I'm told too (by a friend who's a CEO of a corn ethanol 
> company)
> that biobutanol will be handled exactly like gasoline.  We were having a
> drink the other day as my TR3B was parked on the street in front of us, 
> and
> he pointed to my car noting that butanol would be indistinguishable from
> gasoline in it.
> 
> One of the other developments underway is cellulosic butanol at some 
> point,
> too..  DuPont and BP have a venture that is ready to break ground on an
> ethanol/biobutanol plant from corn stover.
> 
> More from Wikipedia on butanol fuel (
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butanol_fuel).  In theory, about a 10%
> consumption hit for butanol.
> 
> Gasoline:
> Fuel energy density  32 MJ/L
> RON  9199
> 
> MON  8189
> 
> Butanol fuel
> Fuel energy density  29 MJ/L
> RON  96
> MON  78
> 
> Don

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2013 16:48:00 -0400 (EDT)

Ethanol or no, the evaporative control system has a lot to do with how long 
the gas stays usable.  I've started a TR6 that had sat for three years on 
the gas that was in the tank.  Let gas sit in a vented tank (eg: TR3) that 
long and you will have a real mess.

Dave

In a message dated 6/12/2013 12:10:40 PM Central Daylight Time, 
[email-masked] writes: 
> Is it possible that the different formulations from state to state has 
> some
> influence on the variety of experiences people seem to be having? 
> California
> is always blaming the "special" formulations for the inability to import 
> gas
> from other states, keeping supplies down and prices up. Maybe we're 
> getting
> something for the premium price? Just wondering. BTW, I don't seem to be
> having any problems and my TR and truck could sit for a month without 
> being
> used and a lot longer without adding fresh gas.

---

From: Don Hiscock <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2013 16:59:50 -0400

Yup, we're going to have to richen our mixtures.  Maybe find some new
needle setup, too, when butanol comes.

Cellulosic ethanol (or butanol now, I guess) has been a biofuels dream for
many years.  Lots of work on the subject by university and industrial
researchers.  The fact that DuPont and BP feel they're getting close means
at least a little bit -- those guys aren't complete idiots at technology
and making products.  (Having worked for DD for over twenty years, the
company's abilities aren't completely unknown to me).

At the same time, it's not trivial, as you say, Dave.  Nature created
starch to be an energy store for the emerging seed, and it's rapidly broken
down into things that provide energy as a result.  Nature created cellulose
to be a durable, load-bearing element in plants.  The simple change from
alpha-linked anhydroglucose units to beta-linked makes all the difference
in the world, and turns the polysaccharide into a structural polymer.  It's
a good thing, too.  If the cellulose in trees were subject to ready
enzymatic degradation, my back yard would be a mess.

One to watch.  There's enough effort being applied to this that some sort
of *technical* success is likely.

On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 4:43 PM, <[email-masked]> wrote:

> > RON  91 99
> > MON  81 89
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/[email-masked]

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2013 17:00:15 -0400 (EDT)

Well, Phil, do they run these plants off of gasoline?  Ethanol is a 
gasoline substitute not a coal or natural gas substitute.

Actually, ethanol is mostly an oxygenating agent for smog reduction and 
doesn't show up in ground water like MTBE.

Dave

---

From: "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2013 17:07:57 -0500 s=q20121106; t=1371074879; bh=9QMK91uWqD95MqVZ0J+bxV3kNNcHdqNdu5aUBVWrhjg=; h=Received:Received:To:From:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=Osnl9WqfP6nRme9+EcyNdYDzJdDH0vWDCtQklq1DEZCedpPZ4Qs9QCbGt3U/E7tOn +g4XXRyIe/ci5Co85C3L2vRAsY7bBTFIfLf0yjXNDv9sjkST85U9wz6i3tro64zMGE SWQvRBS9dox8U1sJ4+5mUHyNKFz1ameOAB3sILfK1iAA2iPR1eotBwJV73UQ5R4Zcs 3/nbOOrjp2ED1Kw3WOJBZ1xCAvR2mtdYIiP3slh2hqxAJP2HpKnlPhpykQJsQYV6Cg AsjRF1nbQayWjth6yMt+Hvep/TQkekfndBrjFQTO48iRfC/SZ9Dqs7l1nttgx80+3c 5xrC1q59i0pyw==

Burn the food, drive your car while prices for food soar. 
Makes sense.
Why not use wind or solar?
They're eternally "on the cusp" of viability....
Why not use...gasp!.....the most energy dense stuff we have in quantity to run cars?
BTW, the RON of modern fuels is not bad.  The 91-93 octane alkygas has an effective RON of about 97-98, so all is not lost.
The UK and Europe use different methods to figure octane, so if you're there you'll have to figure it out.

----- Reply message -----
From: [email-masked]
To: <[email-masked]>
Subject: [TR] problem gas?
Date: Wed, Jun 12, 2013 3:27 pm

Dave

---

From: WBEECH <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2013 20:21:34 -0500

I have been running unleaded ethanol mid-grade in the ' 58 TR3 for for the
5,000 miles that it has been back on the road.  Never a problem, car always
starts and runs smooth, not unusual for a tank of fuel to be 2-3 months old.

I tend to agree with Jonmac's comments that the new fuel is cleaning off some
heretofore untouched crud that is contaminating the system.  With the original
fuel pump and SU carbs my system may not be a sensitive as some of you with
more modern cars or components.

Just another thought....

Bill B

Sent from my iPhone

> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/[email-masked]

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2013 20:52:09 -0500 (CDT)

Have to throw my two cents in even though I did not want to:

1.)  We heard this story about unleaded gas, not an issue.
2.)  We heard this story about zinc in the oil, maybe an issue, resolved with additive or Brad Penn.  My emails to the list with oil analysis proves it.  I am using Brad Penn.
3.)  TRF is selling Lucas gas treatment.

So, I posed a question to the list about the difference between Stabil and Lucas gas treatment.  Never got a response.  I treat each fill up with Lucas from TRF, and I use Stabil in the winter in the TR and all engines in the garage.  Run all dry except for the TR.  Don't shake the TR, don't drain any gas, don't do squat.  I use high test fuel from Shell and it is 10% Ethanol.

I replaced all rubber fuel lines with Ethanol proof from Moss.  I have seen no issue with carbs, fuel pump, fuel filter, fuel separation, or any of the issues described.
 
The TR can sit for months, pull the choke, never put any charge on the Optima battery, I have a disconnect connector on it that I use in the winter.  Turn the key, fires up, drives like it is summer.

>From my side of the pond, this issue is not an issue for me.

Just one TR owners opinion.

Craig 
1972 Triumph TR6

---

From: "Greg Lemon" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2013 21:40:13 -0500

I agree with Craig, I have a number of vehicles, the Triumph sits quite some 
time in winter, I will go out and start it to circulate fluids on a day when 
it gets up to 40F or so, so it probably doesn't sit for more than two 
months, but never a gas problem, I don't generally put ethanol in the 
Triumph, but have done it on occasion when I have needed gas and end up at 
some station that doesn't have premium without ethanol.

I do sometimes put ethanol (10%) in the lawn mower, it sits about five 
months, I never drain the tank, or put any additive in it for the five month 
hibernation for winter.  It starts up and runs fine every spring, or at 
least has so far for the 3 or so lawn mower and 25 years or so of my home 
ownership in my adult life.

I will add that my midwestern farm state heavily subsidizes ethanol, but it 
is labeled, and generally you have regular, at about 87 octane rating, 
mid-grade, with 10% ethanol, usually 89 octane, clearly labeled, and 10-15 
cents a gallon cheaper than regular, and premium usually 91 octane, and 
about 20-30 cents more than regular.

I do like having a choice and having it labeled though.

Greg Lemon

--------------------------------------------------
From: <[email-masked]>
Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2013 8:52 PM
To: <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [TR] Fwd:  problem gas?

> 2.)  We heard this story about zinc in the oil, maybe an issue, resolved 
> with additive or Brad Penn.  My emails to the list with oil analysis 
> proves it.  I am using Brad Penn.
> So, I posed a question to the list about the difference between Stabil and 
> Lucas gas treatment.  Never got a response.  I treat each fill up with 
> Lucas from TRF, and I use Stabil in the winter in the TR and all engines 
> in the garage.  Run all dry except for the TR.  Don't shake the TR, don't 
> drain any gas, don't do squat.  I use high test fuel from Shell and it is 
> 10% Ethanol.
>
>
> I replaced all rubber fuel lines with Ethanol proof from Moss.  I have 
> seen no issue with carbs, fuel pump, fuel filter, fuel separation, or any 
> of the issues described.
>
> The TR can sit for months, pull the choke, never put any charge on the 
> Optima battery, I have a disconnect connector on it that I use in the 
> winter.  Turn the key, fires up, drives like it is summer.
>
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/[email-masked]