Subject: Re: [TR] panel lights on TR3

From: "Carl TR" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2013 03:58:24 -0400

I am now thoroughly flummoxed ...  found two relatively new lamp holders and
re-did all of the wiring - making sure solder and fittings were tight.  Same
thing happens.  When 5 are in the panel or instruments - all is ok.  Plug in
the sixth and it flickers.  Doesn't matter which location.   To make sure I
had a good ground I added a ground line from the center panel to both the
speedo & tach.  (the dash is powder coated).   So - out they all came again.
On the bench, I hooked up jumpers to all - the same thing happens.  Also
tried it bypassing the fuse holder.  Re-checked all of the holders and none
have any broken insulation; the bulbs sit squarely on the connections;
Really getting frustrating....   I put them back in and will leave one tach
lamp out for now.  I need to keep up the forward progress.  

The other issue now is that the starter just whirs.   I took it out sometime
ago and got the bendix working but now it seems to be stuck again.  Any
suggestions so that I don't have to pull that *&^%(*)^ out again. 

Carl
1961 Triumph TR3A - TS81802LO
http://mysite.verizon.net/cfmtr3a/ 
Tampa, FL

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked]
[mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Carl-TR
Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 4:20 PM
To: [email-masked]; [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [TR] panel lights on TR3

It seems that if 5 are connected - all is ok.  Plug in the sixth -
regardless of location - they start flickering. 
Followed Michael's suggestion...  found one that had a cracked separator
between +/-.   Without that one in the mix - all is ok.  
Of course, the spare has been re-used many times and the tines on the
backside are completely useless.  I'll go digging for another but at least I
know the problem.

Thanks Michael & Bill for the quick response.

Carl

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked]
[mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Carl TR
Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 3:04 PM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: [TR] panel lights on TR3

I am pulling my hair.  (not out - I need all I have)

Installed the 6 panel lamps on the '3 yesterday.  

Two circuits -  one with 4 holders/bulbs for speedo/tach, the other with two
holders/bulbs for center panel

Bench tested all six at one time - all ok.

Problem - one holder/lamp in the center panel pair - when installed causes
everything to flicker.  I unplug the offending holder/lamp and no flicker.
I connect a ground and it is back.

Switched out for an older holder/lamp - same thing.

Switched the lamps around - same thing. Same location.

Not sure it matters but It is the center panel lamp below the turn signal
indicator.

Any ideas.

Carl

1961 Triumph TR3A - TS81802LO

 <http://mysite.verizon.net/cfmtr3a/> http://mysite.verizon.net/cfmtr3a/ 

Tampa, FL

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---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 08:12:39 -0400 (EDT)

Boy, all the descriptions sound like there is a current limiting device in 
there (other than the fuse) but that is just crazy talk.  But it sounds like 
something is overheating with sufficient current but if the current is 
reduced below the threshold all is well.  Do they ALL flash in unison or just 
one or a few?

Your starter problem may be one of the two following things.  The TR3 
Starters The bendix extends by riding out on some reverse acme threads.  It 
counts on inertia to spin more slowly than the motor to do so.  If there is 
insufficient lubrication (grease) the friction will be greater than the force 
resulting from the inertia and the bendix will not deploy properly.  I had this 
issue on a 65 MGB and applying grease made it work like new again.

The other problem is that your (and my) starter has a rubber coupler in the 
bendix.  If the bond between the rubber and metal parts fails the motor 
will spin and the rubber/metal interface will slip and the engine will not 
turn.  I have a starter on the shelf in the garage with this special feature.  
You may need a bendix.  Does it spin as if totally unloaded for does it turn 
as loaded but still will not turn over the engine?

Dave

In a message dated 4/2/2013 3:08:20 AM Central Daylight Time, 
[email-masked] writes: 
> speedo &tach.  (the dash is powder coated).   So - out they all came 
> again.

---

From: Randall <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 18:25:15 +0000

---- Carl TR <[email-masked]> wrote: 
> the sixth and it flickers.

Can you describe the "flicker" a bit more?  It almost sounds like you have a mis-wire somewhere that is powering the dash lights through the turn signal flasher or something.

>  o make sure I
> speedo & tach. 

FWIW, I believe there is supposed to be a ground wire there.  Single black wire from the clamp on the instrument panel, to ring terminals on the mounting posts for both tach and speedo.

> Re-checked all of the holders and none

The "arm" that supports the bulb bends slightly when the holder is inserted into the hole.  I've had problems several times with it deflecting enough so that the bulb no longer securely contacts the base contact when the holder is inserted in the hole.  But that would affect only one lamp, so not likely to be your problem.

> suggestions so that I don't have to pull that *&^%(*)^ out again. 

Sometimes the starter doesn't get enough current to move the Bendix.  A low battery (run down perhaps from all the light testing?), poor connection (don't forget the ground strap at the LH motor mount) or bad solenoid.

I finally got disgusted with all the starter problems I was having, and upgraded to a gear-drive starter in 2001.  (Got mine from TRF but lots of sources offer essentially the same unit.)  Still works great.

> 1961 Triumph TR3A - TS81802LO

With that commission number, your starter should not have the bonded rubber drive that Dave M. mentioned.  If you have an early starter installed, that might be the problem.  The early starter used a smaller pinion gear that will just barely engage with the later (smaller) ring gear.  After just a little bit of wear, it slips.

One of the things I did to make the starter easier to change was install a Heli-coil in the transmission flange for the upper starter bolt.  Not having to mess with that nut makes the job a whole lot easier!  I just ran the tap in through the engine flange (where it cut threads that won't hurt anything) and then turned the insert in until it was entirely in the gearbox flange.  I'm not sure it would work every time (I run a TR6 gearbox with a thicker flange) but it sure worked a treat for me.

Randall

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 08:10:12 -0400 (EDT)

In a message dated 4/2/2013 10:46:27 PM Central Daylight Time,
[email-masked] writes:
> <snip>
>  Randall=With that commission number, your starter should not have the
> bonded rubber drive that Dave M. mentioned.  If you have an early starter
> installed, that might be the problem.  The early starter used a smaller
pinion
> gear that will just barely engage with the later (smaller) ring gear.
> After just a little bit of wear, it slips.
>
> Dave= The other problem is that your (and my) starter has a rubber coupler
> in the bendix.
>
>
>
>  I do not recall a rubber coupler.  Without taking it out, is there a way
> to tell if I have an early or later starter?   Lucas Part number on the box
> was 25550 (it was new in box b date stamped July 1968).

My bad.  I blinked twice this mooning and realized I misread your
commission number.  I saw the TS and then I saw the 18 and made the connection
that
your number was close to mine (TS18xxx) so you probably had the same style
starter.  Please disregard. Although readers with early models may take this
to heart.

>
>
>
>
>  Randall=One of the things I did to make the starter easier to change was
> install a Heli-coil in the transmission flange for the upper starter bolt.
> Not having to mess with that nut makes the job a whole lot easier!  I just
> ran the tap in through the engine flange (where it cut threads that won't
> hurt anything) and then turned the insert in until it was entirely in the
> gearbox flange.  I'm not sure it would work every time (I run a TR6 gearbox
> with a thicker flange) but it sure worked a treat for me.
>
> Something to think about but maybe not now.
>
>
>
> Dave= Your starter problem may be one of the two following things.  The
> TR3 Starters The bendix extends by riding out on some reverse acme threads.
> It counts on inertia to spin more slowly than the motor to do so.  If there
> is insufficient lubrication (grease) the friction will be greater than the
> force resulting from the inertia and the bendix will not deploy properly.
> I had this issue on a 65 MGB and applying grease made it work like new
> again.
>
>
>
>  Is it possible to apply grease without taking it out b or should I just
> plan on taking on this task this Saturday.   It might be obvious if I was
> looking at the starter b but where?
>
>
>
> Dave= Does it spin as if totally unloaded for does it turn as loaded but
> still will not turn over the engine?
>
>
>
> It just spins b appears to be no contact with the ring gear.

Then I would hope it is a reluctant bendix.  I don't see how you can apply
grease to it without removing it.  That's what I did on my MG many years
ago.

It might be a bad spot on the ring gear.  Try pushing the car in gear to
turn the engine a bit and see if that changes anything.

Dave

---

From: Randall <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 18:19:52 +0000

> First - the problem occurs when the holders/bulbs are completely out of the
> car connected to a 12v power source

My next step would be to start probing while the "flicker" is happening on the bench.  Does the current go up or down when the lights go out?  If it goes down, there has to be an intermittent connection somewhere, like perhaps the power lead is broken internally.  If it goes up, there must be a short in one of the holders.

> I do not recall a rubber coupler.  Without taking it out, is there a way to
> tell if I have an early or later starter?   Lucas Part number on the box was
> 25550 (it was new in box - date stamped July 1968).  

25550 is the later style starter.  Has an exposed shaft some 6" long with a big coil spring at the end.  That coil spring provides the cushion effect, in place of the bonded rubber drive used in the earlier starters.  The earlier starters also have a cast iron shroud over the pinion gear.  In this link, the upper LH starter image is the later type, the upper RH is the earlier type.
http://goo.gl/OAVnc
(the photos aren't scaled quite the same, the motor section is about the same diameter for both of them)

> Is it possible to apply grease without taking it out - or should I just plan
> on taking on this task this Saturday. 

Sounds like you'll be busy on Saturday.

>  It might be obvious if I was looking
> at the starter - but where?

Turn the pinion gear with your fingers.  One direction it should force the shaft to turn, but the other direction should move the Bendix first.  When the Bendix moves, the gear moves closer to the motor (assuming you have the later type starter).  If it is at all sticky or the shaft turns easier than the Bendix, then you've got a problem.

You can also test it on the bench using a battery and jumper cables to power it, but be certain the starter is securely anchored.  It's probably best to use the starter cable from the car to make connection to the post, as otherwise the high current may damage the post.  The Bendix should extend the instant you apply power to the starter (while it is trying to jump off the bench and land on your foot).

It's also possible the drive has come apart completely, but hopefully that is unlikely.  Happened to me during a 2000 mile drive many years ago, and by the time I got home the big spring had exited through the side of the bellhousing, causing a crack that ruined the entire gearbox housing.

--- Randall