Subject: [TR] When to rebuild

From: "Ed Oot" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 15:43:23 -0500

Curious about the opinions of the list on this.  Question is in regard to
TR3, but I suppose is applicable to any LBC.  When, if ever. Is a rear main
oil leak significant enough to warrant a rebuild.  I don't know for positive
but I do not believe this motor has been rebuilt in the last 15 years (or
so).  However, the car runs strong, does not burn oil, has great oil
pressure and compression, and would seem to have no other reason to rebuild
other than the leak.  I have not tried to measure the amount of oil that
leaks out after good run, but we are not talking drips.  I would call it
more of small puddle.  At one time I thought that it may have been the oil
pan, but I have had that off 3 times and have re-installed per all the
direction from the list, so I don't believe that is a factor.  I do believe
there is a leak from the front sealing block , but doesn't appear to be the
major culprit. Seems a shame to rebuild a perfectly good running motor.
But????

Thanks

Ed

** [email-masked] **

Archive: http://www.team.net/archive

---

From: Darrell Walker <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2013 13:04:31 -0800

Hi Ed,

My opinion, when it annoys you enough to pull the engine.  Or if it was
leaking bad enough to cause other problems, or causing your oil level to drop
between checksl to potentially damage the engine.

Other than that, it really shouldn't be a problem, so you need to make the
decision about living with it.

-Darrell

On Mar 7, 2013, at 12:43 PM, Ed Oot <[email-masked]> wrote:

> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/[email-masked]

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 23:10:13 +0000 (UTC)

>When, if ever. Is a rear main
>oil leak significant enough to warrant a rebuild.  

I've rebuilt mine twice because I had to.  Each time, I've not managed to control the oil from leaking, despite going to the new real oil seals.  

Then again, I insist on using Mobil 1 15-50 synthetic, and I expect Mobil builds into the DNA of that oil the intrinsic nature to seek my garage floor.  

Not sure what you're running, but syn may exacerbate the problem....

Terry Smith, '59 TR3A  TS 58667
New Hampshire

---

From: Randall <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2013 0:10:52 +0000

> Not sure what you're running, but syn may exacerbate the problem....

As a side comment, oil consumption on my "hauler" (old Buick station wagon, Chevy 350 motor) went up sharply when I tried Mobil 1 in it.  (Someone gave me a case of it, so I had to try it.)  But when I went back to Valvoline full synthetic, the oil consumption went back down.  Valvoline SynPower also reduced consumption in my previous hauler with a Chevy 2.8 V6.

It's not "synthetic" that is the problem IMO, it is "Mobil 1".

Alas, SynPower has never reduced consumption in my Triumphs.  But it hasn't increased it either.

Randall

---

From: Randall <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2013 0:26:05 +0000

> oil leak significant enough to warrant a rebuild.  

My approach is to match the costs of dealing with the leak, against the cost of fixing it.  That includes not just the oil and the cleanup, but the hassle of adding more periodically and the embarrassment of a car that "Marks it's spot" like a poorly trained dog.

At some point, maybe the leak would bug me enough to tear the motor down, but it hasn't happened yet.  Most of my current oil spot seems to be under the road draft tube though, the original rear main seal seems to be holding better than the one my previous TR3A did.

- Randall

---

From: Jeremiah Curry <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 21:25:22 -0700 HzZOklJazs97LXttwAAemQPMTALKKH397pK7ACJf6p3rkCwDI4 pNQ4FSd8X+RQwcRVIrC6Av6PXsOq5jC+jPeeHbfS/Qw2GAYymU ri01XL+DvHsQRBnDo/lhFY0mfa+RAPNHJenTjmokrI9sTvNJms uFebtlXF+5YbdKZrvn16zMAiGx8EzHMhdRQLIM4mAz3Ant35oe LUxKFVqX5OhrPTRQL0gQFksyOQJlFPqVDd0+dm9gBRXsP2m8dQ p9Syuzk0qCYYsrO73qClJnYIn0P+NGfxCTIs8zIJFa5tI+My9t EZvM7nrtAMUTLDDotTjZafokN1jcWsL6O6+U+rRkd

I have never had a consumption problem with mobile 1 on turbocharged Audis or
my mr2 turbo...but thy probably have much tighter tolerances than American
engines.  No offence intended by that comment, just my understanding

-----Original Message-----
From: "Randall" <[email-masked]>
Sent: b3/b7/b2013 5:11 PM
Cc: "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [TR] When to rebuild

> Not sure what you're running, but syn may exacerbate the problem....

As a side comment, oil consumption on my "hauler" (old Buick station wagon,
Chevy 350 motor) went up sharply when I tried Mobil 1 in it.  (Someone gave me
a case of it, so I had to try it.)  But when I went back to Valvoline full
synthetic, the oil consumption went back down.  Valvoline SynPower also
reduced consumption in my previous hauler with a Chevy 2.8 V6.

Alas, SynPower has never reduced consumption in my Triumphs.  But it hasn't
increased it either.

Randall

Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/[email-masked]

---

From: "Randall" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 21:56:57 -0800

> I have never had a consumption problem with mobile 1 on 
> turbocharged Audis or my mr2 turbo...but thy probably have 
> much tighter tolerances than American engines.  No offence 
> intended by that comment, just my understanding

None taken.  I'm also guessing that your cars haven't covered 1/4 million
miles each <g>  But I suspect it has more to do with the effects of the
additives on old seals than engine tolerances.

-- Randall

---

From: "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2013 07:49:55 -0700 fEz7kYnL9HoA6mEev5sRQyOowmTsxLN3+mG9jBgki7hIaHJw12 WAfOkh0czx3D4lUKy1DcwpyQktaAny9IwBF3Uxnt16LTuHqzJo VPBfmuKfYpUxAuKLAWOD0Asn7WdW/Xnm6xj6KWzKiuTWm1oovM GPkSZz2yz4ZxeELVg9kv/YxMkyhQ1iWDpZUCpHCvVB5hbNOaUq rlv85gxbeLfXz+p40D+9wqDCYjdF0RjSI9HDWh78bcunXvL06p ntpIblQranoCIpGw1uTJxc/eQKGzsu4TWeIpLmpk5D/IZkECy/ JzxRcnIqahpvdIdaWoaq83e9H8l8mglKNbmlzvgXs

true.  But my 1991 Audi 200 20v did have 200,000 on it when I sold it.  The 
MR2 has 230,000 on it, but he previous owner ran too much boost so I replace 
the long block 15,000 miles ago with one that only had 30,000 miles on it.

I believe the Audi always had Mobile 1 synthetic, at least from the previous 
owner and me, I have heard sometimes the change from dino oil to synthetic 
can cause issues.

-----Original Message----- 
From: Randall
Sent: Thursday, March 7, 2013 10:56 PM
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [TR] When to rebuild

-- Randall

---

From: Dave Massey <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2013 08:13:59 -0500 (EST)

Have you checked the surface of the crankshaft where the seal rides?  Odds are
it has been worn by the old seal.  You can't expect the new seal to seal up
against a rough surface.  And, it seems, the folks who turn crankshafts often
neglect to dress that surface.

I replaced the seals in my TR6 diff but the pinion seal continued to leak
anyway.  After a couple of years (and a failed U-joint) I dropped the diff and
took the opportunity to install a Speedi-sleeve on the pinion flange.  This
provided a fresh, smooth surface for the seal.  Lo and behold the leak
stopped!

The moral of the story is there are two parts to the sealing issue, the seal
and the surface the seal contacts.  Both are important.

Dave Massey

-----Original Message-----
From: terryrs <[email-masked]>
To: Ed Oot <[email-masked]>
Cc: Triumphs <[email-masked]>
Sent: Thu, Mar 7, 2013 5:10 pm
Subject: Re: [TR] When to rebuild

>oil leak significant enough to warrant a rebuild.

I've rebuilt mine twice because I had to.  Each time, I've not managed to
control the oil from leaking, despite going to the new real oil seals.

Then again, I insist on using Mobil 1 15-50 synthetic, and I expect Mobil
builds
into the DNA of that oil the intrinsic nature to seek my garage floor.

Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/[email-masked]

---

From: "Randall" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2013 16:07:16 -0800

> and the surface the seal contacts.  Both are important.

Except of course for the original TR2-4A rear main seal; which was a
non-contact design.  Lots of folks dislike it, but at the time the engine
was developed, it was actually an improvement over the "conventional" rear
main seal (which was basically cotton rope back then).

-- Randall

---

From: Dave Massey <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2013 08:15:54 -0400 (EDT)

Ah, yes.  We tend to forget the history of engine development.  In the early
days there was the total loss oiling systems.  Then the concept of reusing the
oil was introduced.  This led to oil filtering (bypass filtering).  Then full
flow filtering.  Oil sealing improved in incremental steps in the same manner.
As did our expectations.  The change to leaving drops instead of puddles was
considered a great improvement.  Now we complain about a light oil film on the
exterior of the engine.

But my comments were relevant to lip seals as found in TR6 and other SC
derived engines.

Dave Massey

-----Original Message-----
From: Randall <[email-masked]>

-- Randall

---

From: "Randall" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2013 14:22:13 -0800

> Ah, yes.  We tend to forget the history of engine 
> development.  In the early days there was the total loss 
> oiling systems.  Then the concept of reusing the oil was 
> introduced.  This led to oil filtering (bypass filtering). 

You left out the amusing part : Some car makers claimed that filtering the
oil was unnecessary!

My first car (a 62 Chevy) had the optional, bypass oil filter canister
mounted on a bracket, with external lines to an oil gallery and the side of
the crankcase.  Oddly enough, Triumph had already been using full-flow
filters for 6 or 7 years (and my Chevy also had the rope rear main seal),
showing again that they were actually innovative cars for their time.

Shame they couldn't keep it up.

-- Randall

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 07:14:28 -0400 (EDT)

How long did Volkswagen go without a filter?  The old beetles had only a 
screen (similar to that in the Laycock overdrives).

Dave

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 13:38:32 +0000 (UTC)

----- Original Message -----
> From: [email-masked]

> screen (similar to that in the Laycock overdrives).

Around 1970, I knew a raceworker from Minneapolis.  Phil Dean.  Phil had a beetle.  I was over there while he changed the oil.  Cleaned the screen with gasoline.

Isn't that dangerous?

"I don't smoke.  I don't know anybody know smokes.  I make it a point not to know anybody who smokes."

Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UBW "uncle jack", Sapphire Blue
2004 Suburban 8.1, Sport Red, the only automatic of the bunch
2005 Lotus Elise, Bordeaux Red Pearl
2007 Saturn Ion 3 2.4, Berry Red
[email-masked]
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier
http://www.flickr.com/groups/triumphtransamerica
http://www.mnautox.com
http://www.mntriumphs.org

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 13:10:31 -0400 (EDT)

I dunno, isn't the carb full of the stuff?

Dave

In a message dated 3/11/2013 8:38:33 AM Central Daylight Time, 
[email-masked] writes: 
> Around 1970, I knew a raceworker from Minneapolis.  Phil Dean.  Phil had a 
> beetle.  I was over there while he changed the oil.  Cleaned the screen 
> with gasoline.
> 
> Isn't that dangerous?