Subject: [TR] TR3 Aluminum Radiators

From: William Brewer <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 21 May 2012 20:27:15 -0700 (PDT)

I was just checking out an aluminum radiator offered on Ebay and was 
wondering if anyone knows if they are any good. It is pretty inexpensive at 
$299. I had my modified radiator (high efficiency core with no crank hole) 
recored about 10 years ago and am thinking about upgrading next time it needs to 
be rodded out.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HI-PERF-56MM-ALUMINUM-ALLOY-RADIATOR-TRIUMPH-TR2-TR3-TR3A-TR3B-MT-/261027253434?_trksid=m7&_trkparms=algo%3DLVI%26itu%3DUCI%26otn%3D3%26po%3DLVI%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D8586468922649076480

     TIA,

     Bill in Tehachapi

** [email-masked] **

Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/[email-masked]

---

From: Frank Fisher <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 22 May 2012 08:02:22 -0700 (PDT)

Bill
i think the better thing to do is install a 14" electric fan.
took care
of all my problems.
buddy has one of those ebay aluminum radiators. runs a 12"
electric fan, but really needs the 14"
Frank 
in Temecula CA

From: William
Brewer <[email-masked]>
To: Triumphs <[email-masked]> 
Sent:
Monday, May 21, 2012 8:27 PM
Subject: [TR] TR3 Aluminum Radiators

    I was
just checking out an aluminum radiator offered on Ebay and was 
wondering if
anyone knows if they are any good. It is pretty inexpensive at 
$299. I had my
modified radiator (high efficiency core with no crank hole) 
recored about 10
years ago and am thinking about upgrading next time it needs to 
be rodded
out.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HI-PERF-56MM-ALUMINUM-ALLOY-RADIATOR-TRIUMPH-TR2-TR3-
TR3A-TR3B-MT-/261027253434?_trksid=m7&_trkparms=algo%3DLVI%26itu%3DUCI%26otn%
3D3%26po%3DLVI%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D8586468922649076480

    TIA,

    Bill in
Tehachapi

Donate:
http://www.team.net/donate.html
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums:
http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/[email-masked]

---

From: "Randall" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 22 May 2012 09:46:59 -0700

> I had my modified radiator (high efficiency core with no crank
> hole)

I'm not convinced that aluminum represents an upgrade.  It does not conduct
heat as well as copper, plus isn't as strong so it has to be thicker.  It
also corrodes easier and is harder to repair.  

Its main advantage seems to be that it is cheaper.  If you already have a
usable modern copper core, I'd stick with that.  My old one wasn't usable,
but I went with a new copper one anyway even though it cost a bit more.

-- Randall

---

From: William Pugh <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 22 May 2012 09:59:54 -0700

Interesting, my aluminum radiator is exactly the same size as the original
Aluminum IS stronger than copper, and DOES cool better, and. Is CERTAINLY not
cheaper, does NOT corrode more if properly maintained, so just where all of
R's "facts" come from?

Sent from my iPad

On May 22, 2012, at 9:46 AM, "Randall" <[email-masked]> wrote:

> but I went with a new copper one anyway even though it cost a

---

From: "TeriAnn J. Wakeman" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 22 May 2012 10:16:03 -0700

On 5/22/12 9:46 AM, Randall wrote:
> I'm not convinced that aluminum represents an upgrade. It does not 
> conduct heat as well as copper, plus isn't as strong so it has to be 
> thicker. It also corrodes easier and is harder to repair. Its main 
> advantage seems to be that it is cheaper. If you already have a usable 
> modern copper core, I'd stick with that.

OK.

Thermal Conductivity is the quantity of heat transmitted, due to unit 
temperature gradient, in unit time under steady conditions in a 
direction normal to a surface of unit area.   This changes with 
temperature.(Btu/(hr degrees F)

Metal - Degrees F - BTU/(hr degrees F)   Higher means better conductivity

Copper - 68 - 223
Aluminum - 68 - 118
Yellow brass - 68 - 67
Copper brass (70% Cu, 30% Zi) - 68 - 64
Cast iron - 68 - 27 to 46

Aluminum radiators do last longer with with a sacrificial zinc rod, anti 
freeze formulated for aluminum & distilled water.

Do you have a pure copper radiator with pure copper rods?

Teriann

---

From: Frank Fisher <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 22 May 2012 10:37:39 -0700 (PDT)

my crystal ball sees a Mr. Wizard science class in our future. :-)
 
i have
always contended that the heat transfer on black painted copper radiators
belongs to the combination of the copper alloy (whatever that is) and the
black paint applied over top.
 
Frank

From: TeriAnn J. Wakeman
<[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked] 
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2012
10:16 AM
Subject: Re: [TR] TR3 Aluminum Radiators

On 5/22/12 9:46 AM, Randall
> I'm not convinced that aluminum represents an upgrade. It does not
conduct heat as well as copper, plus isn't as strong so it has to be thicker.
It also corrodes easier and is harder to repair. Its main advantage seems to
be that it is cheaper. If you already have a usable modern copper core, I'd
stick with that.

OK.

Thermal Conductivity is the quantity of heat
transmitted, due to unit temperature gradient, in unit time under steady
conditions in a direction normal to a surface of unit area.  This changes with
temperature.(Btu/(hr degrees F)

Metal - Degrees F - BTU/(hr degrees F) 
Higher means better conductivity

Copper - 68 - 223
Aluminum - 68 - 118
Yellow
brass - 68 - 67
Cast iron - 68 - 27 to
46

Do you have a pure copper
radiator with pure copper rods?

Teriann

---

From: "Randall" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 22 May 2012 10:49:22 -0700

> Do you have a pure copper radiator with pure copper rods?

Probably not, although I didn't submit it for quantitative analysis.

But I'll bet you don't have a pure aluminum radiator, either.  Aluminum is
pretty much always alloyed with things like silicon and iron.

> freeze formulated for aluminum & distilled water.

So does copper.  You forgot to mention having to keep the antifreeze and
sacrificial anode changed on schedule, not parking it in a barn and
forgetting about it.

-- Randall

---

From: Frank Fisher <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 22 May 2012 11:01:17 -0700 (PDT)

and i stand by my earlier suggestion that the key to keeping cool is moving
lots of air through the radiator. copper or aluminum.
big electric fans, cant
beat em!
Frank

From: Randall <[email-masked]>
To:
[email-masked] 
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2012 10:49 AM
Subject: Re:
[TR] TR3 Aluminum Radiators

> Do you have a pure copper radiator with pure
copper rods?

Probably not, although I didn't submit it for quantitative
analysis.

But I'll bet you don't have a pure aluminum radiator, either. 
Aluminum is
pretty much always alloyed with things like silicon and iron.

So does copper.  You forgot
to mention having to keep the antifreeze and
sacrificial anode changed on
schedule, not parking it in a barn and
forgetting about it.

-- Randall 

**
[email-masked] **

Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Archive:
http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage:
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/[email-masked]

---

From: "Randall" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 22 May 2012 11:06:02 -0700

> cheaper, does NOT corrode more if properly maintained, so just where

Hokay, fine.  Here's just one reference, showing the current price for
copper is over 3 TIMES the price of aluminum.
http://www.metalprices.com/
New prices are similar, I just didn't happen to find a reference with both
of them on the same page.

Aluminum cans do bring somewhat more at the local recycling place, because
of the deposit on the cans, but copper is still a lot higher.

Next time you have your thermostat housing off, take a look inside.  Note
how much of it has been corroded away over the years; likely it has pits
that are far deeper than the thickness of the radiator tanks.  When I bought
a previous 56 TR3 from a Texas cornfield, the Tstat housing was literally
corroded through, and yet the original radiator still held water.

TeriAnn has already supplied the figures on thermal conductivity; I'll let
you look up the numbers on tensile strength and so on.

-- Randall

---

From: "TeriAnn J. Wakeman" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 22 May 2012 11:12:17 -0700

> lots of air through the radiator. copper or aluminum.
My vote is for a clean system, a hose from where the heater valve goes 
to the port where the other end of the water heater tubing goes and 
minimal clearance at the back of the water pump vanes.

Teriann

---

From: Frank Fisher <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 22 May 2012 11:14:54 -0700 (PDT)

yes
that too

From: TeriAnn J. Wakeman <[email-masked]>
To:
[email-masked] 
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2012 11:12 AM
Subject: Re:
[TR] TR3 Aluminum Radiators

On 5/22/12 11:01 AM, Frank Fisher wrote:
> and i
stand by my earlier suggestion that the key to keeping cool is moving
> lots
of air through the radiator. copper or aluminum.
beat em!
My vote is for a clean system, a hose from where the heater valve
goes to the port where the other end of the water heater tubing goes and
minimal clearance at the back of the water pump vanes.

Teriann

**

---

From: Geo Hahn <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 22 May 2012 11:30:45 -0700

On Tue, May 22, 2012 at 9:59 AM, William Pugh <[email-masked]> wrote:
>
> Aluminum... DOES cool better...
>

Better than what?  If better than the 50 year-old radiator that it replaced
then I would expect so.

Just as some are amazed at  the braking improvement when they install
Toyota calipers, replacing an old original part with a new 'upgrade' may
give a misleading comparison.

G

---

From: Darrell Walker <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 22 May 2012 18:45:16 +0000 (GMT)

This is from Wizard Cooling's web site, so they could be biased, but they are
saying the advantage of aluminum is in the construction.
https://wizardcooling.com/topic/11-faq.aspx

Why are aluminum radiators better
than copper/brass?
It is true that Copper does dissipate heat better than
aluminum, but the benefits are in the design differences. Because aluminum is
much stronger than copper aluminum core manufactures are able to make the
tubes up to 1.50" wide, opposed to .50" wide for a copper tube. The benefit of
this extra tube width comes from the additional contact that is created
between the fins and the tubes, as there are less spaces or voids between the
tubes (due to a fewer amount of tubes). If you take a look at a cut away
section of copper brass radiator that is 2.25" thick, then multiply the number
of tubes in a row by the width of the tubes you will find that there is a
total of 1.50" of "contact" between the fins and the tubes on every row. Now,
do the same evaluation on a 2.25" aluminum core and you will find that there
is 2.0" of "contact". That is 33% more "contact" than the copper brass. This
is critical as the fins accomplish a large percentage of the heat dissipation.
The less contact between the fin and tubes, the less effective the fins.
Another benefit of the wider, aluminum, tubes is that a larger volume of
coolant is now placed inside the core, were the heat dissipation is occurring.
Between the additional contact between the fins and tubes, the additional
fluid in the core, and the additional contact between the fluid and the tubes
you can expect to see at least a 25% increase in the heat transfer
capabilities of an aluminum radiator over a copper/ brass of the same
thickness.

---

From: "Jerry Van Vlack" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 22 May 2012 18:24:47 -0400

Also look at this site
http://www.carolinarodshop.com/Store/Griffin/radiator_electrolysis.htm

I'm in the business and we see aluminum radiators ruined very quickly 
because of electrolysis as noted in this article. It's not as much of a 
concern with copper core radiators. All aluminum radiators are the worst. A 
friends went bad in a few months and wizard didn't warranty it.

If you go all aluminum be cautious and aware that this can occur. It's an 
expensive lesson.

JVV

-----Original Message----- 
From: Darrell Walker
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2012 2:45 PM
To: Triumphs
Subject: Re: [TR] TR3 Aluminum Radiators

This is from Wizard Cooling's web site, so they could be biased, but they 
are
saying the advantage of aluminum is in the construction.
https://wizardcooling.com/topic/11-faq.aspx

Why are aluminum radiators better
than copper/brass?
It is true that Copper does dissipate heat better than
aluminum, but the benefits are in the design differences. Because aluminum 
is
much stronger than copper aluminum core manufactures are able to make the
tubes up to 1.50" wide, opposed to .50" wide for a copper tube. The benefit 
of
this extra tube width comes from the additional contact that is created
between the fins and the tubes, as there are less spaces or voids between 
the
tubes (due to a fewer amount of tubes). If you take a look at a cut away
section of copper brass radiator that is 2.25" thick, then multiply the 
number
of tubes in a row by the width of the tubes you will find that there is a
total of 1.50" of "contact" between the fins and the tubes on every row. 
Now,
do the same evaluation on a 2.25" aluminum core and you will find that there
is 2.0" of "contact". That is 33% more "contact" than the copper brass. This
is critical as the fins accomplish a large percentage of the heat 
dissipation.
The less contact between the fin and tubes, the less effective the fins.
Another benefit of the wider, aluminum, tubes is that a larger volume of
coolant is now placed inside the core, were the heat dissipation is 
occurring.
Between the additional contact between the fins and tubes, the additional
fluid in the core, and the additional contact between the fluid and the 
tubes
you can expect to see at least a 25% increase in the heat transfer
capabilities of an aluminum radiator over a copper/ brass of the same
thickness.

Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage: 
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/[email-masked]