Subject: [TR] K & N air filters

From: Dennis Culligan <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 17 May 2012 18:04:50 -0400

Re:  K & N air filters:

The cleaner stuff is very similar to Formula 409.

My local FLAPS sold me both the cleaner and the oil for $10.95.

No new K & N air filter I have ever seen is pre-oiled. The oil is red so you
can tell if you've 

completely covered the entire surface area.

YMMV.

Dennis Culligan, Highland NY / 1976 TR6 CF57948U    

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From: "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 17 May 2012 22:14:49 -0500

Huh...every k&n I ever bought had the oil already applied to the filter.  I don't think they sell them dry.

Sent from my Verizon Wireless Phone

----- Reply message -----
From: "Dennis Culligan" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Subject: [TR] K & N air filters
Date: Thu, May 17, 2012 17:04

Re:  K & N air filters:

YMMV.

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From: "Al Salvatore" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 18 May 2012 07:18:06 -0400

I haven't seen them pre oiled either.

Al

---

From: "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 18 May 2012 07:49:01 -0500

If they're  red and wrapped in plastic, they're oiled.
So far, I've got them on the mg, the triumph, the tiger, the suburban, the mini, the morris, the Riley, and the highlander.
All came ready to go. I suppose its POSSIBLE they sell some somewhere that aren't.  I buy them on line.
Perhaps k&n sells a cheap, non oiled filter over the counter and the premier ready to go variety only to me!  ;-) 

----- Reply message -----
From: "Al Salvatore" <[email-masked]>
To: "Dennis Culligan" <[email-masked]>, <[email-masked]>, <[email-masked]>
Subject: [TR] K & N air filters
Date: Fri, May 18, 2012 06:18

Al

----- Original Message ----- From: <[email-masked]>
To: "Dennis Culligan" <[email-masked]>; <[email-masked]>
Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 11:14 PM
Subject: Re: [TR] K & N air filters

> Huh...every k&n I ever bought had the oil already applied to the filter. > I don't think they sell them dry.
>
> No new K & N air filter I have ever seen is pre-oiled. The oil is red so > you
> can tell if you've
>

---

From: Frank Fisher <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 18 May 2012 08:42:59 -0700 (PDT)

but they do dry out in time and need a little love
especially here in the
California desert
Frank

From: "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>
To: Dennis Culligan <[email-masked]>; [email-masked] 
Sent:
Thursday, May 17, 2012 8:14 PM
Subject: Re: [TR] K & N air filters
Huh...every k&n I ever bought had the oil already applied to the filter.  I
don't think they sell them dry.

-----
Reply message -----
From: "Dennis Culligan" <[email-masked]>
To:
<[email-masked]>
Subject: [TR] K & N air filters
Date: Thu, May 17,
2012 17:04

Re:  K & N air filters:

The cleaner stuff is very similar to
Formula 409.

YMMV.

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[email-masked] **

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From: "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 19 May 2012 06:10:03 -0500

This "k&n won't filter anything" is a myth, unsupported by any objective scientific study.
Oil bath filters are great if they are serviced and you can put up with the mess.
Since most of us aren't driving earthmovers, I'm pretty certain using a spinning disc is overkill.

----- Reply message -----
From: "TeriAnn J. Wakeman" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Subject: [TR] K & N air filters
Date: Fri, May 18, 2012 19:09

On 5/18/12 7:16 AM, Geo Hahn wrote:
> The one I just got appears to be oiled...
>
> http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc499/Ahwahnee18/VW/KN.jpg
>
> Not for a TR... I prefer to not use them on those engines but for my rear
> engine vehicle that sees a lot of dusty mountain roads I thought it might
> make good sense.
>
Say what????????????

For an off road vehicle your #1 choice should be an oil bath filter.

Your #2 choice should be a spinning prefilter in front of a paper filter (think Donaldson earth mover 2 stage filter systems)
Your #3 choice a box of paper filters
Your last choice before no filter would be an oiled foam filter such as a K&N. A k&N will filter out low flying birds, rocks, gum wrappers, small children, but not fine dust.  Them folks who get paid to race off road with K&N filters completely rebuild the engine after each race. Breaths really well but foam filters do not filter out fine dust. You can use one as a first stage to a 2 stage filter system but they are not as good as the spinner 2 stage systems.

Teriann
TR3 with itg oiled foam filter
Land Rover with Donaldson 2 stage earth mover type filter system

---

From: "TeriAnn J. Wakeman" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 19 May 2012 05:10:25 -0700

> objective scientific study.
I have a friend who shipped his Land Rover to South Africa for the Land 
Rover 50th anniversary  festivities.  He has about 40 or 5 months of 
Land Rover club travels throughout South Africa with various Land Rovers 
planned out.  In preparation he had his engine completely rebuilt by a 
well know reputable Land Rover engine specialist.  To which he added a 
fresh K&N filter.  There are parts of the South African bush where the 
dust kicked up during travel included diamond dust.  About half way 
through his travels he had to stop for an engine replacement because his 
truck did not have enough compression to run.  Diamond dust got through 
the K&N filter and destroyed the engine's rings & badly scored the 
cylinder walls.  ALL the locals used the stock LR oil bath air filters 
without problem.  My friend completed the trip with a stock Land Rover 
oil bath air filter  After being side lined a week because of a "myth".

The expedition travel style 4X4 crowd that uses a vehicle for long off 
road miles in dusty situations do not use K&N filters.  Only newbies and 
people who venture off road on relatively rare occasions.
> Oil bath filters are great if they are serviced and you can put up 
Service intervals depends upon use in heavy dust but is usually about he 
same as with a paper filter.  It consists of pouring out the old oil, 
wiping the inside of the reservoir clean and refilling to the line with 
either fresh oil or used engine oil that has been run through a paper 
filter.  Having lived with one for about 20 years, it is not any messier 
than changing the oil & oil filter yourself.  With a cartridge oil 
filter usually less messier.
> a spinning disc is overkill.
Yes it is overkill on a street vehicle unless you are running a 
commercial vehicle and have to figure engine maintenance into your 
profit & loss columns.  Most commercial long range trucks run a 2 stage 
filter system on the road to squeeze every mile out between engine rebuilds.

But the original post was about a K&N filter used off road in dusty 
situations.  Under those situations a paper filter can become clogged in 
a day or two unless there is an effective prefilter in front.  a two 
stage filter system is not overkill for off road travel in dusty trail 
situations.

With 34 years experience with long range travel off road in a Land Rover 
I thought I would throw in my two cents.

Teriann
> Your #2 choice should be a spinning prefilter in front of a paper 
> filter (think Donaldson earth mover 2 stage filter systems)
> Your last choice before no filter would be an oiled foam filter such 
> as a K&N. A k&N will filter out low flying birds, rocks, gum wrappers, 
> small children, but not fine dust.  Them folks who get paid to race 
> off road with K&N filters completely rebuild the engine after each 
> race. Breaths really well but foam filters do not filter out fine 
> dust. You can use one as a first stage to a 2 stage filter system but 
> they are not as good as the spinner 2 stage systems.
>
> Teriann
...

---

From: "Randall" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 19 May 2012 09:24:00 -0700

> any objective scientific study.

On the contrary, every objective study I've seen shows that the K&N filters
are at the back of the pack as far as both removing and holding dirt.  This
one is a bit less "scientific" but quite valid, IMO.  Notice in the very
first photo, how much dirt went through the K&N and got caught by an
ordinary paper filter.
http://goo.gl/fkMJJ

Want something a bit more quantitative?  Try this one:
http://goo.gl/eQAuW

Note, I fully agree, these tests don't show "won't filter anything".  The
K&N will stop 90% of fine (according to ISO) dust, which is a lot better
than the stock TR3 screens will likely do.  But when an ordinary Delco paper
element filter will stop over 99.9% of fine dust, that means the K&N is
letting through 100 times as much dirt.

Also, it certainly depends on your environment.  Some areas likely don't
have much fine dust.  But Los Angeles not only has a LOT of dust, it is
extremely abrasive.  If I don't wash my car for a week (which admittedly I
almost never do), and then wipe my hand across the paint, the dust will
leave permanent scratches!  I don't know, but I believe that much of the
dust is actually very fine particles of broken sand, created by dust storms
in the desert and carried here on the breeze.

-- Randall

---

From: "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 19 May 2012 13:26:38 -0500

If so, I advise you to file a false advertising claim with the Feds.  That would be the FTC Bureau of Consumer Protection. 
False Advertising.  Won't cost you a dime to file.
Those of you in California and other states have state agencies in addition to the Feds, and all these agencies take this sort of consumer fraud VERY seriously.  K&N is a multi million dollar business doing business world wide.  
If they're lying it is your moral duty to file on them.
So, if you really KNOW something and aren't just repeating stuff off the internet, slap iron.
Written in a friendly, nutritive, and supportive way, of course.

----- Reply message -----
From: "Randall" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>, <[email-masked]>
Subject: [TR] K & N air filters
Date: Sat, May 19, 2012 11:24

-- Randall

---

From: "Randall" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 19 May 2012 11:49:14 -0700

> If so, I advise you to file a false advertising claim with 
> the Feds. 

Examine their ad copy carefully.  Nowhere do they claim that their filter
will remove even as much dirt as other filters.  It is a "better filter"
because it flows more air.  It removes "99% of dirt", but they don't say
what kind of dirt; small boulders perhaps.

And the FTC is nearly toothless anyway.  All they ever do anymore is wait a
few years, then get a token settlement.  The latest one against Sketchers is
a perfect example, the company made over $130 million just in 2010; the FTC
settled for less than 1/4 of one year's profits.  If you're lucky, you'll
get $20 back.  (I'll forego the obvious political comment.)

False advertising pays.

-- Randall

---

From: "Randall" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 19 May 2012 11:52:36 -0700

> So, if you really KNOW something

So, where is YOUR independent scientific study, showing that it is possible
to flow more air and stop more dirt at the same time, using the magic oil
and one of the oldest filter technologies known to man?

I don't need a study to tell me that perpetual motion is impossible.
-- Randall

---

From: "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 19 May 2012 16:02:54 -0500

Ah, but think of the hit a much larger company would take..
I think you should turn them in and let attorneys parse their ware touting.

----- Reply message -----
From: "Randall" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>, <[email-masked]>
Subject: [TR] K & N air filters
Date: Sat, May 19, 2012 13:49

False advertising pays.

-- Randall

---

From: "Randall" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 19 May 2012 14:43:48 -0700

> Ah, but think of the hit a much larger company would take..

What much larger company? 

> I think you should turn them in and let attorneys parse their 

No, no, it was your idea first.  You go right ahead and waste your time, I'd
rather enjoy my Triumph.

-- Randall

---

From: "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 19 May 2012 16:55:58 -0500

I am not claiming they are lying about their filtration claims. You should report them if you truly think they are engaging in false advertising.
We all know you can hook a filter up sufficiently fine to stop micro particles.  You could put a hepafilter on the car.  
You would have fewer particles for the half hour before it filled up.
So what?  Not a good filter.
The only study I'm conversant with is one conducted by Professor Frank Chambers.  He studied design of filters, boundary layer flow, etc.  Interesting reading on a long overnight.
Some (operative word) paper filters may take out smaller particles at the cost of lower air flow volume and shorter service life than wetted cotton media filters.  Maybe.
You are obviously emotionally invested in your opinion on paper filters; fair enough.  
But you must acknowledge there is a tradeoff in filtration, as in all things.  
The 5 micron coarse size particle used in SAE tests has little effect on engine wear.  
Engines went for years with NO air filtration system.  Thousands of miles.
The filters on the TR3-4's were mere oil wetted coarse steel wool.  They were washed out and re oiled.  I think we can safely say they passed larger particles than do ANY current filter.
Did the engines need re building every 10,000 miles?  Of course not.
To put this  all in perspective, a oil filter traps particles between 10 and 15 microns.
So, we worry about trapping bits one third the size of the things rattling around in the oil system?
You must trade particle entrapment with air flow volume sustainability, and service life.
I've seen 11.4 HP on the dyno merely with a switch to a wetted cotton matrix filter.  That was a 5 liter v-8.
My guess is that one might gain 2 HP on these cars with a k&n simply because the early filters have such little resistance.  Every little bit helps!
But to claim the k&n company is defrauding people by producing useless and inferior filters, as some have done on this list, is irresponsible at the very least.

---

From: "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 19 May 2012 16:57:46 -0500

I think they build a fine filter.  
It's only logical you take up the nay sayers banner.

----- Reply message -----
From: "Randall" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>, <[email-masked]>
Subject: [TR] K & N air filters
Date: Sat, May 19, 2012 16:43

-- Randall

---

From: "Randall" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 19 May 2012 15:25:00 -0700

> You should report them if you truly think they are 
> engaging in false advertising.

No, I did NOT say that.  What I said was that I believe, on the information
I have, that they let more dirt through than the average paper element
filter.  I am still waiting for you to present ANY evidence to the contrary.

> You are obviously emotionally invested in your opinion on 
> paper filters;

No more than you are in your opinion of K&N.

> My guess is that one might gain 2 HP on these cars with a k&n 
> simply because the early filters have such little resistance. 

Which is remarkably similar to what I said.  But then how much do you lose
due to advanced piston ring wear?

>  Every little bit helps!

Depends on your goals.  My goal is a reliable car I can drive every day for
a long time.  If sacrificing 2hp buys me another 30,000 miles without
replacing the rings, I'm good with that.  If it was a race car, I would feel
differently (and might well run K&N filters if I ran any filter at all).
But I would also be changing the rings every hundred miles or so.

> Did the engines need re building every 10,000 miles?  Of course not.

Uhm, just how many miles have you driven a TR3 with those screen filters, in
a dusty environment?  I particularly like the comment in the owner's manual
about "excessive" oil consumption being one gallon (Imperial presumably) per
thousand miles.

> So, we worry about trapping bits one third the size of the things rattling
around in the oil system?

Dunno about you, but I don't put in dirty oil, while the air is already
dirty.  And oil filters do remove particles smaller than 15 microns, just at
a lower percentage.  Since they get many, many passes at the oil, they don't
need to be as efficient to remove  the dirt.  In fact, the early TR3s used a
bypass oil filter and fed the mains with oil directly from the pump.

-- Randall

---

From: "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 19 May 2012 18:09:14 -0500

Below.

----- Reply message -----
From: "Randall" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>, <[email-masked]>
Subject: [TR] K & N air filters
Date: Sat, May 19, 2012 17:25

No, I did NOT say that.  What I said was that I believe, on the information
I have, that they let more dirt through than the average paper element
filter. +you certainly inferred at the least.  What is an "average" paper filter? I am still waiting for you to present ANY evidence to the contrary.

No more than you are in your opinion of K&N.
+depending on application, I use either.  Some of my cars have no filter at all.

Which is remarkably similar to what I said.  But then how much do you lose
due to advanced piston ring wear?+advanced piston ring wear?

Uhm, just how many miles have you driven a TR3 with those screen filters, in
a dusty environment?+my mg m type has no filter at all.  Niether does the mg pa. The engines lasted quite a while on the poor and unpaved roads of the thirties.  The little m type went over the alps and back in '33 with out requiring an engine rebuild.I'm not sure the original silver ghost had a filter!I particularly like the comment in the owner's manual
about "excessive" oil consumption being one gallon (Imperial presumably) per
thousand miles.+the jensen healey claimed a pint per four or six hundred. But that was because lotus pawned the undeveloped engine off on them.

-- Randall

---

From: "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 19 May 2012 18:19:33 -0500

And the HP 1 oil filter is rated at 20 microns.  Go figure.

----- Reply message -----
From: "Randall" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>, <[email-masked]>
Subject: [TR] K & N air filters
Date: Sat, May 19, 2012 17:25

-- Randall

---

From: "Randall" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 19 May 2012 16:45:51 -0700

> +you certainly inferred at the least. 

Ok, it's obvious you haven't been paying attention.  I said their
advertising was not false, you're the one that said it was.  They simply
don't claim that their filter removes more dirt (or even as much dirt) as
other filters.  They do claim they flow more air, and as I stated, I believe
that is true.  The test results I linked to showed the same thing.

Your arguments that clean air is not important don't seem persuasive to me
either.  I have seen a brand new Chevy 350 that was burning oil badly after
only 1000 miles or so through the western USA (Pike's Peak to Iowa City, IA)
with no air filter.  My current 350 with a good paper element filter is not
smoking at all after some 250,000 miles in similar conditions (and in spite
of all the sand damage).  It does make a difference.  

(Mine leaks more than I would like, just like my Triumphs, but I still get
over 2000 miles to the quart and no visible smoke.  It also passes smog test
every time, which would be impossible if it was burning any significant
amount of oil.)

BTW, what exactly is your connection to K&N?  My only connection is to a
major world-wide agricultural equipment manufacturer (Deere), who uses
mostly paper element filters in conjunction with various kinds of
prefilters.  Cost is relatively unimportant but long life is a major selling
point, so I have to believe that, if their engines would last longer with
K&N (or even produce more power with the same lifetime), they would be using
them.  But I have nothing to do with air filter selection (or anything else
relating to powertrain for that matter).

I'm done flogging this thread.  If you want to believe that K&N filters
remove more dirt, go right ahead.  I won't agree until I see some evidence
that they do.

-- Randall

---

From: "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 19 May 2012 20:44:40 -0500

I own k&n.  I usually peruse the internet in order to mess with unbelievers..
My lawyers will be in contact with all of you.

Lol rof.

----- Reply message -----
From: "Randall" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>, <[email-masked]>
Subject: [TR] K & N air filters
Date: Sat, May 19, 2012 18:45

-- Randall