Subject: Re: [Tigers] Front suspension

From: GARY WINBLAD <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 10:41:22 -0400 (EDT)

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Lance,
There are a couple more expensive solutions that might be still available.
Dale did design and make an entire front crossmember/suspension.  It fixed the geometry but was about $5K
last I heard, and he might have stopped making them.
People (mostly in EU) have put in electric power steering.  It mounts up under the dash so it all looks stock,
would be great in a parking lot or tight course.  Others have put in conventional hydraulic power steering.
Shelby had his guys put in a Miata power rack in his wife's Tiger for instance.
Gary

>     On 10/01/2021 9:36 AM Lance Beauchamp <[email-masked]> wrote:
> 
> 
>     So it is what it is, end of story, thank very much for a really good explanation,  still love the car. Beau 
> 
>     On Thu, Sep 30, 2021, 10:13 PM GARY WINBLAD <[email-masked] mailto:[email-masked] > wrote:
> 
>         > >         HI Lance,
> >         Steering geometry is a real problem.  Shelby throwing the rack way out in front of the engine was a quick solution.
> >         Rootes didn't want to change a Shelby design... so we suffer today.  Doane knew it was a problem but he thought
> >         Rootes would build a new crossmember.
> >         The problem is when you go around a corner, the inside wheel needs to run a smaller radius turn than the outside.
> >         Toe in on turns or Ackerman geometry is what it is called.   The Tiger has reverse Ackerman, the inner wheel turns
> >         a larger radius!  When I used to push my Tiger out to my slightly downhill driveway it was easier to turn the wheel
> >         full lock than to reach down and pull the parking brake... what a great design Shelby!
> >         On a tight autocross course or a parking lot this is really less than ideal...  MIKE analysis??
> >         On a big course it might not make such a difference though Jim Adams said he had to "toss the Tiger like a sprint
> >         car"  (keeping it jumping and sliding rather than be smooth.. I hear that as...).
> > 
> >         Longer MGB steering arms and initial toe-out is the small solution Dale has...
> >         You may notice, its hard to turn the wheel at slow speeds, especially with big sticky tires.
> >         But once you go into a fairly tight turn, it becomes easier as both tires lose contact.. and the Tiger goes straight
> >         off the corner...
> > 
> >         Mike, do I have it anywhere correct?
> >         Gary W.
> > 
> > 
> >             > > >             On 09/30/2021 9:55 PM Lance Beauchamp <[email-masked] mailto:[email-masked] > wrote:
> > > 
> > > 
> > >             You say you spend alot of time on suspension Gary, can you tell me how to make the Tiger easier to turn at lower speeds, like 15 mph or under. I always  blame the steering  geometry,  is it all that?  Beau 
> > > 
> > >         > > 
> >     > 

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  <div>
   Lance,
  </div>
  <div class="default-style">
   &nbsp;There are a couple more expensive solutions that might be still available.
  </div>
  <div class="default-style">
   Dale did design and make an entire front crossmember/suspension.&nbsp; It fixed the geometry but was about $5K
  </div>
  <div class="default-style">
   last I heard, and he might have stopped making them.
  </div>
  <div class="default-style">
   People (mostly in EU) have put in electric power steering.&nbsp; It mounts up under the dash so it all looks stock,
  </div>
  <div class="default-style">
   would be great in a parking lot or tight course.&nbsp; Others have put in conventional hydraulic power steering.
  </div>
  <div class="default-style">
   Shelby had his guys put in a Miata power rack in his wife's Tiger for instance.
  </div>
  <div class="default-style">
   Gary
  </div>
  <div class="default-style">
   <br>
  </div>
  <blockquote type="cite">
   <div>
    On 10/01/2021 9:36 AM Lance Beauchamp &lt;[email-masked]&gt; wrote:
   </div>
   <div>
    <br>
   </div>
   <div>
    <br>
   </div>
   <div dir="auto">
    So it is what it is, end of story, thank very much for a really good explanation,&nbsp; still love the car. Beau&nbsp;
   </div>
   <br>
   <div class="gmail_quote">
    <div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr">
     On Thu, Sep 30, 2021, 10:13 PM GARY WINBLAD &lt;<a href="mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:
     <br>
    </div>
    <blockquote>
     <u></u>
     <div>
      <div>
       HI Lance,
      </div>
      <div>
       Steering geometry is a real problem.&nbsp; Shelby throwing the rack way out in front of the engine was a quick solution.
      </div>
      <div>
       Rootes didn't want to change a Shelby design... so we suffer today.&nbsp; Doane knew it was a problem but he thought
      </div>
      <div>
       Rootes would build a new crossmember.
      </div>
      <div>
       The problem is when you go around a corner, the inside wheel needs to run a smaller radius turn than the outside.
      </div>
      <div>
       Toe in on turns or Ackerman geometry is what it is called.&nbsp; &nbsp;The Tiger has reverse Ackerman, the inner wheel turns
      </div>
      <div>
       a larger radius!&nbsp; When I used to push my Tiger out to my slightly downhill driveway it was easier to turn the wheel
      </div>
      <div>
       full lock than to reach down and pull the parking brake... what a great design Shelby!
      </div>
      <div>
       On a tight autocross course or a parking lot this is really less than ideal...&nbsp; MIKE analysis??
      </div>
      <div>
       On a big course it might not make such a difference though Jim Adams said he had to "toss the Tiger like a sprint
      </div>
      <div>
       car"&nbsp; (keeping it jumping and sliding rather than be smooth.. I hear that as...).
      </div>
      <div>
       <br>
      </div>
      <div>
       Longer MGB steering arms and initial toe-out is the small solution Dale has...
      </div>
      <div>
       You may notice, its hard to turn the wheel at slow speeds, especially with big sticky tires.
      </div>
      <div>
       But once you go into a fairly tight turn, it becomes easier as both tires lose contact.. and the Tiger goes straight
      </div>
      <div>
       off the corner...
      </div>
      <div>
       <br>
      </div>
      <div>
       Mike, do I have it anywhere correct?
      </div>
      <div>
       Gary W.
      </div>
      <div>
       <br>
      </div>
      <blockquote type="cite">
       <div>
        On 09/30/2021 9:55 PM Lance Beauchamp &lt;<a target="_blank" href="mailto:[email-masked]" rel="noopener">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:
       </div>
       <div>
        <br>
       </div>
       <div>
        <br>
       </div>
       <div dir="auto">
        You say you spend alot of time on suspension Gary, can you tell me how to make the Tiger easier to turn at lower speeds, like 15 mph or under. I always&nbsp; blame the steering&nbsp; geometry,&nbsp; is it all that?&nbsp; Beau&nbsp;
       </div>
      </blockquote>
     </div>
    </blockquote>
   </div>
  </blockquote>
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Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers http://autox.team.net/archive

Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/[email-masked]

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From: Michael Wood via Tigers <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 15:54:35 +0000 (UTC)

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Gary, I think you nailed it, reverse Ackermann leads to some funky slip ang=
les and strangely heavy steering, particularly felt at low speeds...the fro=
nt tires are literally fighting each other. The fact we all typically add w=
ider wheels makes the steering even heavier (both contact patch to move aro=
und and scrub radius). Finally, maxing out caster with wedges (which I do) =
makes it even worse!=C2=A0The longer MG steering arms help, I've found on c=
ars I've driven so equipped, but I haven't bothered to do on my car. Toe ou=
t changes the slip angle and also helps get the car to turn in, but I only =
go to toe out (1/4") when autocrossing, as toe out also is a great way to k=
ill tires. Besides the poor camber curve, Ackerman is another reason why I =
run as much negative camber as possible...if the outside wheel isn't techni=
cally aligned to the turn radius correctly, at least I can maximize the una=
ligned contact patch in roll lol. Funny thing, even the real experts I've r=
ead can't seem to agree on "Ackermann", because there are so many other var=
iables.I don't know, outside of a custom solution like Dale's or Hokanson's=
 front ends, of a real fix. I've just learned to live with heavy steering, =
but if it really is a problem, going to stock width wheels and smaller sect=
ion width tires really makes a difference. The electric power steering solu=
tion has gotten to be a pretty easy=C2=A0deal, but that obviously does noth=
ing to address the underlying geometry issues.Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: GARY WINBLAD <[email-masked]>
To: Lance Beauchamp <[email-masked]>; Tiger List <[email-masked]=
t>
Sent: Fri, Oct 1, 2021 7:42 am
Subject: Re: [Tigers] Front suspension

   Lance,   =C2=A0There are a couple more expensive solutions that might be=
 still available.   Dale did design and make an entire front crossmember/su=
spension.=C2=A0 It fixed the geometry but was about $5K   last I heard, and=
 he might have stopped making them.   People (mostly in EU) have put in ele=
ctric power steering.=C2=A0 It mounts up under the dash so it all looks sto=
ck,   would be great in a parking lot or tight course.=C2=A0 Others have pu=
t in conventional hydraulic power steering.   Shelby had his guys put in a =
Miata power rack in his wife's Tiger for instance.   Gary  =20
 =20
  On 10/01/2021 9:36 AM Lance Beauchamp <[email-masked]> wrote:  =20
  =20
   So it is what it is, end of story, thank very much for a really good exp=
lanation,=C2=A0 still love the car. Beau=C2=A0 =20
   On Thu, Sep 30, 2021, 10:13 PM GARY WINBLAD <[email-masked]> wr=
ote:=20
 =20
    HI Lance,   Steering geometry is a real problem.=C2=A0 Shelby throwing =
the rack way out in front of the engine was a quick solution.   Rootes didn=
't want to change a Shelby design... so we suffer today.=C2=A0 Doane knew i=
t was a problem but he thought   Rootes would build a new crossmember.   Th=
e problem is when you go around a corner, the inside wheel needs to run a s=
maller radius turn than the outside.   Toe in on turns or Ackerman geometry=
 is what it is called.=C2=A0 =C2=A0The Tiger has reverse Ackerman, the inne=
r wheel turns   a larger radius!=C2=A0 When I used to push my Tiger out to =
my slightly downhill driveway it was easier to turn the wheel   full lock t=
han to reach down and pull the parking brake... what a great design Shelby!=
   On a tight autocross course or a parking lot this is really less than id=
eal...=C2=A0 MIKE analysis??   On a big course it might not make such a dif=
ference though Jim Adams said he had to "toss the Tiger like a sprint   car=
"=C2=A0 (keeping it jumping and sliding rather than be smooth.. I hear that=
 as...).  =20
   Longer MGB steering arms and initial toe-out is the small solution Dale =
has...   You may notice, its hard to turn the wheel at slow speeds, especia=
lly with big sticky tires.   But once you go into a fairly tight turn, it b=
ecomes easier as both tires lose contact.. and the Tiger goes straight   of=
f the corner...  =20
   Mike, do I have it anywhere correct?   Gary W.  =20
 =20
  On 09/30/2021 9:55 PM Lance Beauchamp <[email-masked]> wrote:  =20
  =20
   You say you spend alot of time on suspension Gary, can you tell me how t=
o make the Tiger easier to turn at lower speeds, like 15 mph or under. I al=
ways=C2=A0 blame the steering=C2=A0 geometry,=C2=A0 is it all that?=C2=A0 B=
eau=C2=A0 =20
 =20
 =20
 _______________________________________________

[email-masked]

Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/[email-masked]=
m

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<div style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;color:b=
lack;"><div style=3D"font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10=
pt; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f; font-size: 10pt; color: black;">Gary, I think you nailed it, reverse Ack=
ermann leads to some funky slip angles and strangely heavy steering, partic=
ularly felt at low speeds...the front tires are literally fighting each oth=
er. The fact we all typically add wider wheels makes the steering even heav=
ier (both contact patch to move around and scrub radius). Finally, maxing o=
ut caster with wedges (which I do) makes it even worse!&nbsp;</div><div sty=
le=3D"font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; color: blac=
k;" data-mce-style=3D"font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 1=
0pt; color: black;">The longer MG steering arms help, I've found on cars I'=
ve driven so equipped, but I haven't bothered to do on my car. Toe out chan=
ges the slip angle and also helps get the car to turn in, but I only go to =
toe out (1/4") when autocrossing, as toe out also is a great way to kill ti=
res. Besides the poor camber curve, Ackerman is another reason why I run as=
 much negative camber as possible...if the outside wheel isn't technically =
aligned to the turn radius correctly, at least I can maximize the unaligned=
 contact patch in roll lol. Funny thing, even the real experts I've read ca=
n't seem to agree on "Ackermann", because there are so many other variables=
.</div><div style=3D"font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10=
pt; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f; font-size: 10pt; color: black;">I don't know, outside of a custom soluti=
on like Dale's or Hokanson's front ends, of a real fix. I've just learned t=
o live with heavy steering, but if it really is a problem, going to stock w=
idth wheels and smaller section width tires really makes a difference. The =
electric power steering solution has gotten to be a pretty easy&nbsp;deal, =
but that obviously does nothing to address the underlying geometry issues.<=
/div><div style=3D"font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt=
; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;=
 font-size: 10pt; color: black;">Mike<br><br><br>-----Original Message-----=
<br>From: GARY WINBLAD &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>To: Lance Beaucha=
mp &lt;[email-masked]&gt;; Tiger List &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br=
>Sent: Fri, Oct 1, 2021 7:42 am<br>Subject: Re: [Tigers] Front suspension<b=
r><br></div><div id=3D"yiv9946714849">

 =20
  =20
=20
 <div>
  <div>
   Lance,
  </div>
  <div class=3D"yiv9946714849default-style">
   &nbsp;There are a couple more expensive solutions that might be still av=
ailable.
  </div>
  <div class=3D"yiv9946714849default-style">
   Dale did design and make an entire front crossmember/suspension.&nbsp; I=
t fixed the geometry but was about $5K
  </div>
  <div class=3D"yiv9946714849default-style">
   last I heard, and he might have stopped making them.
  </div>
  <div class=3D"yiv9946714849default-style">
   People (mostly in EU) have put in electric power steering.&nbsp; It moun=
ts up under the dash so it all looks stock,
  </div>
  <div class=3D"yiv9946714849default-style">
   would be great in a parking lot or tight course.&nbsp; Others have put i=
n conventional hydraulic power steering.
  </div>
  <div class=3D"yiv9946714849default-style">
   Shelby had his guys put in a Miata power rack in his wife's Tiger for in=
stance.
  </div>
  <div class=3D"yiv9946714849default-style">
   Gary
  </div>
  <div class=3D"yiv9946714849default-style">
   <br>
  </div>
  <blockquote type=3D"cite">
   <div>
    On 10/01/2021 9:36 AM Lance Beauchamp &lt;[email-masked]&gt; wrote=
:
   </div>
   <div>
    <br>
   </div>
   <div>
    <br>
   </div>
   <div>
    So it is what it is, end of story, thank very much for a really good ex=
planation,&nbsp; still love the car. Beau&nbsp;
   </div>
   <br>
   <div class=3D"yiv9946714849gmail_quote">
    <div class=3D"yiv9946714849gmail_attr" dir=3D"ltr">
     On Thu, Sep 30, 2021, 10:13 PM GARY WINBLAD &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow noo=
pener noreferrer" ymailto=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_bla=
nk" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt;=
 wrote:
     <br>
    </div>
    <blockquote>
     <u></u>
     <div>
      <div>
       HI Lance,
      </div>
      <div>
       Steering geometry is a real problem.&nbsp; Shelby throwing the rack =
way out in front of the engine was a quick solution.
      </div>
      <div>
       Rootes didn't want to change a Shelby design... so we suffer today.&=
nbsp; Doane knew it was a problem but he thought
      </div>
      <div>
       Rootes would build a new crossmember.
      </div>
      <div>
       The problem is when you go around a corner, the inside wheel needs t=
o run a smaller radius turn than the outside.
      </div>
      <div>
       Toe in on turns or Ackerman geometry is what it is called.&nbsp; &nb=
sp;The Tiger has reverse Ackerman, the inner wheel turns
      </div>
      <div>
       a larger radius!&nbsp; When I used to push my Tiger out to my slight=
ly downhill driveway it was easier to turn the wheel
      </div>
      <div>
       full lock than to reach down and pull the parking brake... what a gr=
eat design Shelby!
      </div>
      <div>
       On a tight autocross course or a parking lot this is really less tha=
n ideal...&nbsp; MIKE analysis??
      </div>
      <div>
       On a big course it might not make such a difference though Jim Adams=
 said he had to "toss the Tiger like a sprint
      </div>
      <div>
       car"&nbsp; (keeping it jumping and sliding rather than be smooth.. I=
 hear that as...).
      </div>
      <div>
       <br>
      </div>
      <div>
       Longer MGB steering arms and initial toe-out is the small solution D=
ale has...
      </div>
      <div>
       You may notice, its hard to turn the wheel at slow speeds, especiall=
y with big sticky tires.
      </div>
      <div>
       But once you go into a fairly tight turn, it becomes easier as both =
tires lose contact.. and the Tiger goes straight
      </div>
      <div>
       off the corner...
      </div>
      <div>
       <br>
      </div>
      <div>
       Mike, do I have it anywhere correct?
      </div>
      <div>
       Gary W.
      </div>
      <div>
       <br>
      </div>
      <blockquote type=3D"cite">
       <div>
        On 09/30/2021 9:55 PM Lance Beauchamp &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow noopen=
er noreferrer" ymailto=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank" hre=
f=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:
       </div>
       <div>
        <br>
       </div>
       <div>
        <br>
       </div>
       <div>
        You say you spend alot of time on suspension Gary, can you tell me =
how to make the Tiger easier to turn at lower speeds, like 15 mph or under.=
 I always&nbsp; blame the steering&nbsp; geometry,&nbsp; is it all that?&nb=
sp; Beau&nbsp;
       </div>
      </blockquote>
     </div>
    </blockquote>
   </div>
  </blockquote>
 </div>
</div>_______________________________________________<br><br><a ymailto=3D"=
mailto:[email-masked]" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">tigers@=
autox.team.net</a><br><br>Donate: <a href=3D"http://www.team.net/donate.htm=
l" target=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a><br>Archive: <a hre=
f=3D"http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers" target=3D"_blank">http://www.tea=
m.net/pipermail/tigers </a><a href=3D"http://autox.team.net/archive" target=
=3D"_blank">http://autox.team.net/archive</a><br><br>Unsubscribe: <a href=
=3D"http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/[email-masked]" target=
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[email-masked]

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---

From: GARY WINBLAD <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 12:23:20 -0400 (EDT)

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Mike,
Thanks for your expert analysis!
Yes, I never did find what Ackerman is best either..  I heard Doane speak and he said the reverse Ackerman is actually an advantage when you are
countersteering (what I think he meant).  I wrote a program to figure out how it works on the Tiger.  Turns out Ackerman is not really that bad until
you get to pretty extreme steering angles, so on a big track it isn't really that bad.  And with initial toe-out dialed in it might not be that bad on a really
tight course.  And because of the fulcrum pin issue, I NEVER go full lock anymore, even parking.
Yeah camber... why did the lowered a-arm trick seem to work back in the day but isn't used anymore?  The GT-350s I have looked at still have it.
I know it was bad for braking but so is initial negative camber?
Heavy steering, why I left my big stock steering wheel.
Gary

>     On 10/01/2021 11:54 AM Michael Wood <[email-masked]> wrote:
> 
> 
>     Gary, I think you nailed it, reverse Ackermann leads to some funky slip angles and strangely heavy steering, particularly felt at low speeds...the front tires are literally fighting each other. The fact we all typically add wider wheels makes the steering even heavier (both contact patch to move around and scrub radius). Finally, maxing out caster with wedges (which I do) makes it even worse! 
>     The longer MG steering arms help, I've found on cars I've driven so equipped, but I haven't bothered to do on my car. Toe out changes the slip angle and also helps get the car to turn in, but I only go to toe out (1/4") when autocrossing, as toe out also is a great way to kill tires. Besides the poor camber curve, Ackerman is another reason why I run as much negative camber as possible...if the outside wheel isn't technically aligned to the turn radius correctly, at least I can maximize the unaligned contact patch in roll lol. Funny thing, even the real experts I've read can't seem to agree on "Ackermann", because there are so many other variables.
>     I don't know, outside of a custom solution like Dale's or Hokanson's front ends, of a real fix. I've just learned to live with heavy steering, but if it really is a problem, going to stock width wheels and smaller section width tires really makes a difference. The electric power steering solution has gotten to be a pretty easy deal, but that obviously does nothing to address the underlying geometry issues.
>     Mike
> 
> 
>     To: Lance Beauchamp <[email-masked]>; Tiger List <[email-masked]>
>     [email-masked] mailto:[email-masked]
> 
>     Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>     Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers http://autox.team.net/archive
> 
>     Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/[email-masked]
> 
> 
> 

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<!doctype html>
<html>
 <head> 
  <meta charset="UTF-8"> 
 </head>
 <body>
  <div>
   Mike,
  </div>
  <div class="default-style">
   Thanks for your expert analysis!
  </div>
  <div class="default-style">
   Yes, I never did find what Ackerman is best either..&nbsp; I heard Doane speak and he said the reverse Ackerman is actually an advantage when you are
  </div>
  <div class="default-style">
   countersteering (what I think he meant).&nbsp; I wrote a program to figure out how it works on the Tiger.&nbsp; Turns out Ackerman is not really that bad until
  </div>
  <div class="default-style">
   you get to pretty extreme steering angles, so on a big track it isn't really that bad.&nbsp; And with initial toe-out dialed in it might not be that bad on a really
  </div>
  <div class="default-style">
   tight course.&nbsp; And because of the fulcrum pin issue, I NEVER go full lock anymore, even parking.
  </div>
  <div class="default-style">
   Yeah camber... why did the lowered a-arm trick seem to work back in the day but isn't used anymore?&nbsp; The GT-350s I have looked at still have it.
  </div>
  <div class="default-style">
   I know it was bad for braking but so is initial negative camber?
  </div>
  <div class="default-style">
   Heavy steering, why I left my big stock steering wheel.
  </div>
  <div class="default-style">
   Gary
  </div>
  <div class="default-style">
   <br>
  </div>
  <blockquote type="cite">
   <div>
    On 10/01/2021 11:54 AM Michael Wood &lt;[email-masked]&gt; wrote:
   </div>
   <div>
    <br>
   </div>
   <div>
    <br>
   </div>
   <div style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: black;">
    <div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; color: black;">
     Gary, I think you nailed it, reverse Ackermann leads to some funky slip angles and strangely heavy steering, particularly felt at low speeds...the front tires are literally fighting each other. The fact we all typically add wider wheels makes the steering even heavier (both contact patch to move around and scrub radius). Finally, maxing out caster with wedges (which I do) makes it even worse!&nbsp;
    </div>
    <div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; color: black;">
     The longer MG steering arms help, I've found on cars I've driven so equipped, but I haven't bothered to do on my car. Toe out changes the slip angle and also helps get the car to turn in, but I only go to toe out (1/4") when autocrossing, as toe out also is a great way to kill tires. Besides the poor camber curve, Ackerman is another reason why I run as much negative camber as possible...if the outside wheel isn't technically aligned to the turn radius correctly, at least I can maximize the unaligned contact patch in roll lol. Funny thing, even the real experts I've read can't seem to agree on "Ackermann", because there are so many other variables.
    </div>
    <div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; color: black;">
     I don't know, outside of a custom solution like Dale's or Hokanson's front ends, of a real fix. I've just learned to live with heavy steering, but if it really is a problem, going to stock width wheels and smaller section width tires really makes a difference. The electric power steering solution has gotten to be a pretty easy&nbsp;deal, but that obviously does nothing to address the underlying geometry issues.
    </div>
    <div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; color: black;">
     Mike
     <br>
     <br>
     <br>-----Original Message-----
     <br>From: GARY WINBLAD &lt;[email-masked]&gt;
     <br>To: Lance Beauchamp &lt;[email-masked]&gt;; Tiger List &lt;[email-masked]&gt;
     <br>Sent: Fri, Oct 1, 2021 7:42 am
     <br>Subject: Re: [Tigers] Front suspension
     <br>
     <br>
    </div>
    <div id="yiv9946714849">
     <div>
      <div>
       Lance,
      </div>
      <div class="yiv9946714849default-style">
       &nbsp;There are a couple more expensive solutions that might be still available.
      </div>
      <div class="yiv9946714849default-style">
       Dale did design and make an entire front crossmember/suspension.&nbsp; It fixed the geometry but was about $5K
      </div>
      <div class="yiv9946714849default-style">
       last I heard, and he might have stopped making them.
      </div>
      <div class="yiv9946714849default-style">
       People (mostly in EU) have put in electric power steering.&nbsp; It mounts up under the dash so it all looks stock,
      </div>
      <div class="yiv9946714849default-style">
       would be great in a parking lot or tight course.&nbsp; Others have put in conventional hydraulic power steering.
      </div>
      <div class="yiv9946714849default-style">
       Shelby had his guys put in a Miata power rack in his wife's Tiger for instance.
      </div>
      <div class="yiv9946714849default-style">
       Gary
      </div>
      <div class="yiv9946714849default-style">
       <br>
      </div>
      <blockquote type="cite">
       <div>
        On 10/01/2021 9:36 AM Lance Beauchamp &lt;[email-masked]&gt; wrote:
       </div>
       <div>
        <br>
       </div>
       <div>
        <br>
       </div>
       <div>
        So it is what it is, end of story, thank very much for a really good explanation,&nbsp; still love the car. Beau&nbsp;
       </div>
       <br>
       <div class="yiv9946714849gmail_quote">
        <div dir="ltr" class="yiv9946714849gmail_attr">
         On Thu, Sep 30, 2021, 10:13 PM GARY WINBLAD &lt;<a href="mailto:[email-masked]" target="_blank" rel="noopener">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote: 
         <br>
        </div>
        <blockquote>
         <u></u>
         <div>
          <div>
           HI Lance,
          </div>
          <div>
           Steering geometry is a real problem.&nbsp; Shelby throwing the rack way out in front of the engine was a quick solution.
          </div>
          <div>
           Rootes didn't want to change a Shelby design... so we suffer today.&nbsp; Doane knew it was a problem but he thought
          </div>
          <div>
           Rootes would build a new crossmember.
          </div>
          <div>
           The problem is when you go around a corner, the inside wheel needs to run a smaller radius turn than the outside.
          </div>
          <div>
           Toe in on turns or Ackerman geometry is what it is called.&nbsp; &nbsp;The Tiger has reverse Ackerman, the inner wheel turns
          </div>
          <div>
           a larger radius!&nbsp; When I used to push my Tiger out to my slightly downhill driveway it was easier to turn the wheel
          </div>
          <div>
           full lock than to reach down and pull the parking brake... what a great design Shelby!
          </div>
          <div>
           On a tight autocross course or a parking lot this is really less than ideal...&nbsp; MIKE analysis??
          </div>
          <div>
           On a big course it might not make such a difference though Jim Adams said he had to "toss the Tiger like a sprint
          </div>
          <div>
           car"&nbsp; (keeping it jumping and sliding rather than be smooth.. I hear that as...).
          </div>
          <div>
           <br>
          </div>
          <div>
           Longer MGB steering arms and initial toe-out is the small solution Dale has...
          </div>
          <div>
           You may notice, its hard to turn the wheel at slow speeds, especially with big sticky tires.
          </div>
          <div>
           But once you go into a fairly tight turn, it becomes easier as both tires lose contact.. and the Tiger goes straight
          </div>
          <div>
           off the corner...
          </div>
          <div>
           <br>
          </div>
          <div>
           Mike, do I have it anywhere correct?
          </div>
          <div>
           Gary W.
          </div>
          <div>
           <br>
          </div>
          <blockquote type="cite">
           <div>
            On 09/30/2021 9:55 PM Lance Beauchamp &lt;<a href="mailto:[email-masked]" target="_blank" rel="noopener">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:
           </div>
           <div>
            <br>
           </div>
           <div>
            <br>
           </div>
           <div>
            You say you spend alot of time on suspension Gary, can you tell me how to make the Tiger easier to turn at lower speeds, like 15 mph or under. I always&nbsp; blame the steering&nbsp; geometry,&nbsp; is it all that?&nbsp; Beau&nbsp;
           </div>
          </blockquote>
         </div>
        </blockquote>
       </div>
      </blockquote>
     </div>
    </div>_______________________________________________
    <br>
    <br><a href="mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>
    <br>
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    <br>Unsubscribe: <a target="_blank" href="http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/[email-masked]" rel="noopener">http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/[email-masked]</a>
    <br>
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    <br>
   </div>
  </blockquote>
 </body>
</html>
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--===============1122184135031459977==
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Content-Disposition: inline

[email-masked]

--===============1122184135031459977==--

---

From: Michael Wood via Tigers <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 16:37:07 +0000 (UTC)

--===============6316598630918505027==
	boundary="----=_Part_604632_1308470821.1633106227480"

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I'm far from expert...maybe a layman open to experimenting lol=C2=A0
I think a lot of guys building Mustangs, Camaros etc still do the Shelby dr=
op (relocating the upper control arm downwards). But, I don't know how it w=
ould work on a Tiger, as we run into control arm clearance to unibody issue=
s pretty quickly at the fastener to the rear (if you follow what I'm saying=
) when shimming for negative camber. That clearance becomes even less when =
you start looking at dropping the physical location of the UCA. So, the que=
stion would be whether the negative camber gained in drop would offset the =
loss of ability to shim, I guess. But, yeah, the camber curve should improv=
e.=C2=A0
Wonder if anyone has done it?
Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: GARY WINBLAD <[email-masked]>
To: Michael Wood <[email-masked]>; [email-masked] <blance598@gmail=
.com>; [email-masked] <[email-masked]>
Sent: Fri, Oct 1, 2021 9:23 am
Subject: Re: [Tigers] Front suspension

  Mike,   Thanks for your expert analysis!   Yes, I never did find what Ack=
erman is best either..=C2=A0 I heard Doane speak and he said the reverse Ac=
kerman is actually an advantage when you are   countersteering (what I thin=
k he meant).=C2=A0 I wrote a program to figure out how it works on the Tige=
r.=C2=A0 Turns out Ackerman is not really that bad until   you get to prett=
y extreme steering angles, so on a big track it isn't really that bad.=C2=
=A0 And with initial toe-out dialed in it might not be that bad on a really=
   tight course.=C2=A0 And because of the fulcrum pin issue, I NEVER go ful=
l lock anymore, even parking.   Yeah camber... why did the lowered a-arm tr=
ick seem to work back in the day but isn't used anymore?=C2=A0 The GT-350s =
I have looked at still have it.   I know it was bad for braking but so is i=
nitial negative camber?   Heavy steering, why I left my big stock steering =
wheel.   Gary  =20
 =20
  On 10/01/2021 11:54 AM Michael Wood <[email-masked]> wrote:  =20
  =20
    Gary, I think you nailed it, reverse Ackermann leads to some funky slip=
 angles and strangely heavy steering, particularly felt at low speeds...the=
 front tires are literally fighting each other. The fact we all typically a=
dd wider wheels makes the steering even heavier (both contact patch to move=
 around and scrub radius). Finally, maxing out caster with wedges (which I =
do) makes it even worse!=C2=A0   The longer MG steering arms help, I've fou=
nd on cars I've driven so equipped, but I haven't bothered to do on my car.=
 Toe out changes the slip angle and also helps get the car to turn in, but =
I only go to toe out (1/4") when autocrossing, as toe out also is a great w=
ay to kill tires. Besides the poor camber curve, Ackerman is another reason=
 why I run as much negative camber as possible...if the outside wheel isn't=
 technically aligned to the turn radius correctly, at least I can maximize =
the unaligned contact patch in roll lol. Funny thing, even the real experts=
 I've read can't seem to agree on "Ackermann", because there are so many ot=
her variables.   I don't know, outside of a custom solution like Dale's or =
Hokanson's front ends, of a real fix. I've just learned to live with heavy =
steering, but if it really is a problem, going to stock width wheels and sm=
aller section width tires really makes a difference. The electric power ste=
ering solution has gotten to be a pretty easy=C2=A0deal, but that obviously=
 does nothing to address the underlying geometry issues.   Mike=20
=20
=20
-----Original Message-----=20
From: GARY WINBLAD <[email-masked]>=20
To: Lance Beauchamp <[email-masked]>; Tiger List <[email-masked]=
t>=20
Sent: Fri, Oct 1, 2021 7:42 am=20
Subject: Re: [Tigers] Front suspension=20
=20
     Lance,   =C2=A0There are a couple more expensive solutions that might =
be still available.   Dale did design and make an entire front crossmember/=
suspension.=C2=A0 It fixed the geometry but was about $5K   last I heard, a=
nd he might have stopped making them.   People (mostly in EU) have put in e=
lectric power steering.=C2=A0 It mounts up under the dash so it all looks s=
tock,   would be great in a parking lot or tight course.=C2=A0 Others have =
put in conventional hydraulic power steering.   Shelby had his guys put in =
a Miata power rack in his wife's Tiger for instance.   Gary  =20
 =20
  On 10/01/2021 9:36 AM Lance Beauchamp <[email-masked]> wrote:  =20
  =20
   So it is what it is, end of story, thank very much for a really good exp=
lanation,=C2=A0 still love the car. Beau=C2=A0 =20
   On Thu, Sep 30, 2021, 10:13 PM GARY WINBLAD <[email-masked]> wr=
ote:=20
 =20
    HI Lance,   Steering geometry is a real problem.=C2=A0 Shelby throwing =
the rack way out in front of the engine was a quick solution.   Rootes didn=
't want to change a Shelby design... so we suffer today.=C2=A0 Doane knew i=
t was a problem but he thought   Rootes would build a new crossmember.   Th=
e problem is when you go around a corner, the inside wheel needs to run a s=
maller radius turn than the outside.   Toe in on turns or Ackerman geometry=
 is what it is called.=C2=A0 =C2=A0The Tiger has reverse Ackerman, the inne=
r wheel turns   a larger radius!=C2=A0 When I used to push my Tiger out to =
my slightly downhill driveway it was easier to turn the wheel   full lock t=
han to reach down and pull the parking brake... what a great design Shelby!=
   On a tight autocross course or a parking lot this is really less than id=
eal...=C2=A0 MIKE analysis??   On a big course it might not make such a dif=
ference though Jim Adams said he had to "toss the Tiger like a sprint   car=
"=C2=A0 (keeping it jumping and sliding rather than be smooth.. I hear that=
 as...).  =20
   Longer MGB steering arms and initial toe-out is the small solution Dale =
has...   You may notice, its hard to turn the wheel at slow speeds, especia=
lly with big sticky tires.   But once you go into a fairly tight turn, it b=
ecomes easier as both tires lose contact.. and the Tiger goes straight   of=
f the corner...  =20
   Mike, do I have it anywhere correct?   Gary W.  =20
 =20
  On 09/30/2021 9:55 PM Lance Beauchamp <[email-masked]> wrote:  =20
  =20
   You say you spend alot of time on suspension Gary, can you tell me how t=
o make the Tiger easier to turn at lower speeds, like 15 mph or under. I al=
ways=C2=A0 blame the steering=C2=A0 geometry,=C2=A0 is it all that?=C2=A0 B=
eau=C2=A0 =20
 =20
 =20
  _______________________________________________=20
=20
[email-masked]=20
=20
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers http://autox.team.net/archive=
=20
=20
Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/[email-masked]=
m=20
=20
=20
 =20
=20
------=_Part_604632_1308470821.1633106227480
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;color:b=
lack;"><div style=3D"font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10=
pt; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f; font-size: 10pt; color: black;">I'm far from expert...maybe a layman ope=
n to experimenting lol&nbsp;</div><div style=3D"font-family: arial,helvetic=
a,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-family=
: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; color: black;"><br></div><di=
v style=3D"font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; color:=
 black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-si=
ze: 10pt; color: black;">I think a lot of guys building Mustangs, Camaros e=
tc still do the Shelby drop (relocating the upper control arm downwards). B=
ut, I don't know how it would work on a Tiger, as we run into control arm c=
learance to unibody issues pretty quickly at the fastener to the rear (if y=
ou follow what I'm saying) when shimming for negative camber. That clearanc=
e becomes even less when you start looking at dropping the physical locatio=
n of the UCA. So, the question would be whether the negative camber gained =
in drop would offset the loss of ability to shim, I guess. But, yeah, the c=
amber curve should improve.&nbsp;</div><div style=3D"font-family: arial,hel=
vetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-f=
amily: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; color: black;"><br></di=
v><div style=3D"font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; c=
olor: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; fo=
nt-size: 10pt; color: black;">Wonder if anyone has done it?</div><div style=
=3D"font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; color: black;=
" data-mce-style=3D"font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10p=
t; color: black;"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family: arial,helvetica,sans=
-serif; font-size: 10pt; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-family: aria=
l,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; color: black;">Mike</div><div styl=
e=3D"font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; color: black=
;" data-mce-style=3D"font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10=
pt; color: black;"><br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: GARY WINBLAD=
 &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>To: Michael Wood &lt;[email-masked]=
&gt;; [email-masked] &lt;[email-masked]&gt;; [email-masked]=
t &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>Sent: Fri, Oct 1, 2021 9:23 am<br>Subjec=
t: Re: [Tigers] Front suspension<br><br></div><div id=3D"yiv1610308570"><di=
v>
  <div>
   Mike,
  </div>
  <div class=3D"yiv1610308570default-style">
   Thanks for your expert analysis!
  </div>
  <div class=3D"yiv1610308570default-style">
   Yes, I never did find what Ackerman is best either..&nbsp; I heard Doane=
 speak and he said the reverse Ackerman is actually an advantage when you a=
re
  </div>
  <div class=3D"yiv1610308570default-style">
   countersteering (what I think he meant).&nbsp; I wrote a program to figu=
re out how it works on the Tiger.&nbsp; Turns out Ackerman is not really th=
at bad until
  </div>
  <div class=3D"yiv1610308570default-style">
   you get to pretty extreme steering angles, so on a big track it isn't re=
ally that bad.&nbsp; And with initial toe-out dialed in it might not be tha=
t bad on a really
  </div>
  <div class=3D"yiv1610308570default-style">
   tight course.&nbsp; And because of the fulcrum pin issue, I NEVER go ful=
l lock anymore, even parking.
  </div>
  <div class=3D"yiv1610308570default-style">
   Yeah camber... why did the lowered a-arm trick seem to work back in the =
day but isn't used anymore?&nbsp; The GT-350s I have looked at still have i=
t.
  </div>
  <div class=3D"yiv1610308570default-style">
   I know it was bad for braking but so is initial negative camber?
  </div>
  <div class=3D"yiv1610308570default-style">
   Heavy steering, why I left my big stock steering wheel.
  </div>
  <div class=3D"yiv1610308570default-style">
   Gary
  </div>
  <div class=3D"yiv1610308570default-style">
   <br clear=3D"none">
  </div>
  <div class=3D"yiv1610308570yqt4128808675" id=3D"yiv1610308570yqt43507"><b=
lockquote type=3D"cite">
   <div>
    On 10/01/2021 11:54 AM Michael Wood &lt;[email-masked]&gt; wrote:
   </div>
   <div>
    <br clear=3D"none">
   </div>
   <div>
    <br clear=3D"none">
   </div>
   <div style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif=
; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: arial, hel=
vetica, sans-serif; color: black;">
    <div style=3D"font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 10p=
t; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-ser=
if; font-size: 10pt; color: black;">
     Gary, I think you nailed it, reverse Ackermann leads to some funky sli=
p angles and strangely heavy steering, particularly felt at low speeds...th=
e front tires are literally fighting each other. The fact we all typically =
add wider wheels makes the steering even heavier (both contact patch to mov=
e around and scrub radius). Finally, maxing out caster with wedges (which I=
 do) makes it even worse!&nbsp;
    </div>
    <div style=3D"font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 10p=
t; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-ser=
if; font-size: 10pt; color: black;">
     The longer MG steering arms help, I've found on cars I've driven so eq=
uipped, but I haven't bothered to do on my car. Toe out changes the slip an=
gle and also helps get the car to turn in, but I only go to toe out (1/4") =
when autocrossing, as toe out also is a great way to kill tires. Besides th=
e poor camber curve, Ackerman is another reason why I run as much negative =
camber as possible...if the outside wheel isn't technically aligned to the =
turn radius correctly, at least I can maximize the unaligned contact patch =
in roll lol. Funny thing, even the real experts I've read can't seem to agr=
ee on "Ackermann", because there are so many other variables.
    </div>
    <div style=3D"font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 10p=
t; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-ser=
if; font-size: 10pt; color: black;">
     I don't know, outside of a custom solution like Dale's or Hokanson's f=
ront ends, of a real fix. I've just learned to live with heavy steering, bu=
t if it really is a problem, going to stock width wheels and smaller sectio=
n width tires really makes a difference. The electric power steering soluti=
on has gotten to be a pretty easy&nbsp;deal, but that obviously does nothin=
g to address the underlying geometry issues.
    </div>
    <div style=3D"font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 10p=
t; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-ser=
if; font-size: 10pt; color: black;">
     Mike
     <br clear=3D"none">
     <br clear=3D"none">
     <br clear=3D"none">-----Original Message-----
     <br clear=3D"none">From: GARY WINBLAD &lt;[email-masked]&gt;
     <br clear=3D"none">To: Lance Beauchamp &lt;[email-masked]&gt;; Ti=
ger List &lt;[email-masked]&gt;
     <br clear=3D"none">Sent: Fri, Oct 1, 2021 7:42 am
     <br clear=3D"none">Subject: Re: [Tigers] Front suspension
     <br clear=3D"none">
     <br clear=3D"none">
    </div>
    <div id=3D"yiv1610308570">
     <div>
      <div>
       Lance,
      </div>
      <div class=3D"yiv1610308570default-style">
       &nbsp;There are a couple more expensive solutions that might be stil=
l available.
      </div>
      <div class=3D"yiv1610308570default-style">
       Dale did design and make an entire front crossmember/suspension.&nbs=
p; It fixed the geometry but was about $5K
      </div>
      <div class=3D"yiv1610308570default-style">
       last I heard, and he might have stopped making them.
      </div>
      <div class=3D"yiv1610308570default-style">
       People (mostly in EU) have put in electric power steering.&nbsp; It =
mounts up under the dash so it all looks stock,
      </div>
      <div class=3D"yiv1610308570default-style">
       would be great in a parking lot or tight course.&nbsp; Others have p=
ut in conventional hydraulic power steering.
      </div>
      <div class=3D"yiv1610308570default-style">
       Shelby had his guys put in a Miata power rack in his wife's Tiger fo=
r instance.
      </div>
      <div class=3D"yiv1610308570default-style">
       Gary
      </div>
      <div class=3D"yiv1610308570default-style">
       <br clear=3D"none">
      </div>
      <blockquote type=3D"cite">
       <div>
        On 10/01/2021 9:36 AM Lance Beauchamp &lt;[email-masked]&gt; w=
rote:
       </div>
       <div>
        <br clear=3D"none">
       </div>
       <div>
        <br clear=3D"none">
       </div>
       <div>
        So it is what it is, end of story, thank very much for a really goo=
d explanation,&nbsp; still love the car. Beau&nbsp;
       </div>
       <br clear=3D"none">
       <div class=3D"yiv1610308570gmail_quote">
        <div class=3D"yiv1610308570gmail_attr" dir=3D"ltr">
         On Thu, Sep 30, 2021, 10:13 PM GARY WINBLAD &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow=
 noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:garywinblad@comcast.=
net" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">garywinblad@=
comcast.net</a>&gt; wrote:=20
         <br clear=3D"none">
        </div>
        <blockquote>
         <u></u>
         <div>
          <div>
           HI Lance,
          </div>
          <div>
           Steering geometry is a real problem.&nbsp; Shelby throwing the r=
ack way out in front of the engine was a quick solution.
          </div>
          <div>
           Rootes didn't want to change a Shelby design... so we suffer tod=
ay.&nbsp; Doane knew it was a problem but he thought
          </div>
          <div>
           Rootes would build a new crossmember.
          </div>
          <div>
           The problem is when you go around a corner, the inside wheel nee=
ds to run a smaller radius turn than the outside.
          </div>
          <div>
           Toe in on turns or Ackerman geometry is what it is called.&nbsp;=
 &nbsp;The Tiger has reverse Ackerman, the inner wheel turns
          </div>
          <div>
           a larger radius!&nbsp; When I used to push my Tiger out to my sl=
ightly downhill driveway it was easier to turn the wheel
          </div>
          <div>
           full lock than to reach down and pull the parking brake... what =
a great design Shelby!
          </div>
          <div>
           On a tight autocross course or a parking lot this is really less=
 than ideal...&nbsp; MIKE analysis??
          </div>
          <div>
           On a big course it might not make such a difference though Jim A=
dams said he had to "toss the Tiger like a sprint
          </div>
          <div>
           car"&nbsp; (keeping it jumping and sliding rather than be smooth=
.. I hear that as...).
          </div>
          <div>
           <br clear=3D"none">
          </div>
          <div>
           Longer MGB steering arms and initial toe-out is the small soluti=
on Dale has...
          </div>
          <div>
           You may notice, its hard to turn the wheel at slow speeds, espec=
ially with big sticky tires.
          </div>
          <div>
           But once you go into a fairly tight turn, it becomes easier as b=
oth tires lose contact.. and the Tiger goes straight
          </div>
          <div>
           off the corner...
          </div>
          <div>
           <br clear=3D"none">
          </div>
          <div>
           Mike, do I have it anywhere correct?
          </div>
          <div>
           Gary W.
          </div>
          <div>
           <br clear=3D"none">
          </div>
          <blockquote type=3D"cite">
           <div>
            On 09/30/2021 9:55 PM Lance Beauchamp &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow no=
opener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" ta=
rget=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>=
&gt; wrote:
           </div>
           <div>
            <br clear=3D"none">
           </div>
           <div>
            <br clear=3D"none">
           </div>
           <div>
            You say you spend alot of time on suspension Gary, can you tell=
 me how to make the Tiger easier to turn at lower speeds, like 15 mph or un=
der. I always&nbsp; blame the steering&nbsp; geometry,&nbsp; is it all that=
?&nbsp; Beau&nbsp;
           </div>
          </blockquote>
         </div>
        </blockquote>
       </div>
      </blockquote>
     </div>
    </div>_______________________________________________
    <br clear=3D"none">
    <br clear=3D"none"><a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rec=
t" ymailto=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailt=
o:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>
    <br clear=3D"none">
    <br clear=3D"none">Donate: <a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shap=
e=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://www.team.net/donate.html">http:=
//www.team.net/donate.html</a>
    <br clear=3D"none">Archive: <a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" sha=
pe=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers"=
>http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers </a><a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noref=
errer" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://autox.team.net/archi=
ve">http://autox.team.net/archive</a>
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    <br clear=3D"none">Unsubscribe: <a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer"=
 shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://autox.team.net/mailman/opt=
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s/[email-masked]</a>
    <br clear=3D"none">
    <br clear=3D"none">
    <br clear=3D"none">
   </div>
  </blockquote></div>
 </div></div></div>
------=_Part_604632_1308470821.1633106227480--

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[email-masked]

--===============6316598630918505027==--

---

From: jim via Tigers <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 10:22:09 -0700 boundary="----=_NextPart_000_043D_01D7B6AE.317F25A0"

This is a multipart message in MIME format.

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I=E2=80=99m definitely a layman but like to tweak things !!!

=20

My car has the 1976 suspension tuning added holes to fully relocate the =
upper A-arms and I=E2=80=99ve kept that setup. Other than minimal =
shimming for castor the camber will NOT go to zero ( or positive) and I =
have about 1 degree negative =E2=80=A6 I have a unique brake setup with =
11=E2=80=9D Porsche rotors on adapters and Wilwood Dynalite  calipers =
behind 14=E2=80=9D 3 piece wheels. I changed the steering arms to the =
MGB one when I installed the Mazda power steering. The mounting holes =
for the MGB arms are parallel  so require a spacer to mount them in =
stock location. I saw a potential ( because my Wilwood brake mount ) to =
move the steering arm outboard but that would also require the caliper =
and rotor to move the same amount. I managed to move it all outboard =
=C2=BC=E2=80=9D and with the slight offset of the MGB arm, it=E2=80=99s =
almost =C2=BD=E2=80=9D gain in reality. I bolted the wheels back on and =
it =E2=80=98seemed=E2=80=99 to spin freely so I took it for a drive and =
heard a slight =E2=80=98ticking=E2=80=99 in the wheels. It turned out =
that both wheels had a couple of stick on wheel weights on the inside =
and the calipers were just grazing the as they are about 1/8=E2=80=9D =
thick. A couple minutes with the grinder shaved off enough and its never =
been a problem since!  I did the math back then and can=E2=80=99t =
remember exactly but it certainly ( on paper ) improved the ackerman

Maybe I shouldn=E2=80=99t have cancelled my =E2=80=9Chokanson=E2=80=99 =
front end order years ago but what would I do with my free time ??  lol!

=20

Jim

B382000446

=20

From: Tigers <[email-masked]> On Behalf Of Michael Wood =
via Tigers
Sent: Friday, October 01, 2021 9:37 AM
To: [email-masked]; [email-masked]; [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Tigers] Front suspension

=20

I'm far from expert...maybe a layman open to experimenting lol=20

=20

I think a lot of guys building Mustangs, Camaros etc still do the Shelby =
drop (relocating the upper control arm downwards). But, I don't know how =
it would work on a Tiger, as we run into control arm clearance to =
unibody issues pretty quickly at the fastener to the rear (if you follow =
what I'm saying) when shimming for negative camber. That clearance =
becomes even less when you start looking at dropping the physical =
location of the UCA. So, the question would be whether the negative =
camber gained in drop would offset the loss of ability to shim, I guess. =
But, yeah, the camber curve should improve.=20

=20

=20

Mike

-----Original Message-----
[email-masked]>

Mike,=20

Thanks for your expert analysis!=20

Yes, I never did find what Ackerman is best either..  I heard Doane =
speak and he said the reverse Ackerman is actually an advantage when you =
are=20

countersteering (what I think he meant).  I wrote a program to figure =
out how it works on the Tiger.  Turns out Ackerman is not really that =
bad until=20

you get to pretty extreme steering angles, so on a big track it isn't =
really that bad.  And with initial toe-out dialed in it might not be =
that bad on a really=20

tight course.  And because of the fulcrum pin issue, I NEVER go full =
lock anymore, even parking.=20

Yeah camber... why did the lowered a-arm trick seem to work back in the =
day but isn't used anymore?  The GT-350s I have looked at still have it. =

I know it was bad for braking but so is initial negative camber?=20

Heavy steering, why I left my big stock steering wheel.=20

Gary=20

=20

[email-masked]> wrote:=20

=20

=20

Gary, I think you nailed it, reverse Ackermann leads to some funky slip =
angles and strangely heavy steering, particularly felt at low =
speeds...the front tires are literally fighting each other. The fact we =
all typically add wider wheels makes the steering even heavier (both =
contact patch to move around and scrub radius). Finally, maxing out =
caster with wedges (which I do) makes it even worse! =20

The longer MG steering arms help, I've found on cars I've driven so =
equipped, but I haven't bothered to do on my car. Toe out changes the =
slip angle and also helps get the car to turn in, but I only go to toe =
out (1/4") when autocrossing, as toe out also is a great way to kill =
tires. Besides the poor camber curve, Ackerman is another reason why I =
run as much negative camber as possible...if the outside wheel isn't =
technically aligned to the turn radius correctly, at least I can =
maximize the unaligned contact patch in roll lol. Funny thing, even the =
real experts I've read can't seem to agree on "Ackermann", because there =
are so many other variables.=20

I don't know, outside of a custom solution like Dale's or Hokanson's =
front ends, of a real fix. I've just learned to live with heavy =
steering, but if it really is a problem, going to stock width wheels and =
smaller section width tires really makes a difference. The electric =
power steering solution has gotten to be a pretty easy deal, but that =
obviously does nothing to address the underlying geometry issues.=20

Mike=20

-----Original Message-----=20
[email-masked]>=20
Sent: Fri, Oct 1, 2021 7:42 am=20
Subject: Re: [Tigers] Front suspension=20

Lance,=20

 There are a couple more expensive solutions that might be still =
available.=20

Dale did design and make an entire front crossmember/suspension.  It =
fixed the geometry but was about $5K=20

last I heard, and he might have stopped making them.=20

People (mostly in EU) have put in electric power steering.  It mounts up =
under the dash so it all looks stock,=20

would be great in a parking lot or tight course.  Others have put in =
conventional hydraulic power steering.=20

Shelby had his guys put in a Miata power rack in his wife's Tiger for =
instance.=20

Gary=20

=20

[email-masked]> wrote:=20

=20

=20

So it is what it is, end of story, thank very much for a really good =
explanation,  still love the car. Beau =20

=20

On Thu, Sep 30, 2021, 10:13 PM GARY WINBLAD < =

HI Lance,=20

Steering geometry is a real problem.  Shelby throwing the rack way out =
in front of the engine was a quick solution.=20

Rootes didn't want to change a Shelby design... so we suffer today.  =
Doane knew it was a problem but he thought=20

Rootes would build a new crossmember.=20

The problem is when you go around a corner, the inside wheel needs to =
run a smaller radius turn than the outside.=20

Toe in on turns or Ackerman geometry is what it is called.   The Tiger =
has reverse Ackerman, the inner wheel turns=20

a larger radius!  When I used to push my Tiger out to my slightly =
downhill driveway it was easier to turn the wheel=20

full lock than to reach down and pull the parking brake... what a great =
design Shelby!=20

On a tight autocross course or a parking lot this is really less than =
ideal...  MIKE analysis??=20

On a big course it might not make such a difference though Jim Adams =
said he had to "toss the Tiger like a sprint=20

car"  (keeping it jumping and sliding rather than be smooth.. I hear =
that as...).=20

=20

has...=20

You may notice, its hard to turn the wheel at slow speeds, especially =
with big sticky tires.=20

But once you go into a fairly tight turn, it becomes easier as both =
tires lose contact.. and the Tiger goes straight=20

off the corner...=20

=20

Mike, do I have it anywhere correct?=20

Gary W.=20

=20

[email-masked]> wrote:=20

=20

=20

You say you spend alot of time on suspension Gary, can you tell me how =
to make the Tiger easier to turn at lower speeds, like 15 mph or under. =
I always  blame the steering  geometry,  is it all that?  Beau =20

Archive:  <http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers> =
http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers  <http://autox.team.net/archive> =
http://autox.team.net/archive=20

Unsubscribe:  =
<http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/[email-masked]> =
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/[email-masked]=20

------=_NextPart_001_043E_01D7B6AE.317F25A0
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xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" =
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<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple style=3D'word-wrap:break-word'><div =
class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-CA>I=E2=80=99m =
definitely a layman but like to tweak things !!!<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-CA><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-CA>My car has the 1976 suspension =
tuning added holes to fully relocate the upper A-arms and I=E2=80=99ve =
kept that setup. Other than minimal shimming for castor the camber will =
NOT go to zero ( or positive) and I have about 1 degree negative =
=E2=80=A6 I have a unique brake setup with 11=E2=80=9D Porsche rotors on =
adapters and Wilwood Dynalite =C2=A0calipers behind 14=E2=80=9D 3 piece =
wheels. I changed the steering arms to the MGB one when I installed the =
Mazda power steering. The mounting holes for the MGB arms are parallel =
=C2=A0so require a spacer to mount them in stock location. I saw a =
potential ( because my Wilwood brake mount ) to move the steering arm =
outboard but that would also require the caliper and rotor to move the =
same amount. I managed to move it all outboard =C2=BC=E2=80=9D and with =
the slight offset of the MGB arm, it=E2=80=99s almost =C2=BD=E2=80=9D =
gain in reality. I bolted the wheels back on and it =
=E2=80=98seemed=E2=80=99 to spin freely so I took it for a drive and =
heard a slight =E2=80=98ticking=E2=80=99 in the wheels. It turned out =
that both wheels had a couple of stick on wheel weights on the inside =
and the calipers were just grazing the as they are about 1/8=E2=80=9D =
thick. A couple minutes with the grinder shaved off enough and its never =
been a problem since!=C2=A0 I did the math back then and can=E2=80=99t =
remember exactly but it certainly ( on paper ) improved the =
ackerman<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-CA>Maybe I shouldn=E2=80=99t have cancelled my =
=E2=80=9Chokanson=E2=80=99 front end order years ago but what would I do =
with my free time ??=C2=A0 lol!<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-CA><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-CA>Jim<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-CA>B382000446</span><span lang=3DEN-CA =
style=3D'font-family:"Segoe UI =
Symbol",sans-serif'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-CA><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b>From:</b> Tigers =
&lt;[email-masked]&gt; <b>On Behalf Of </b>Michael Wood =
via Tigers<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, October 01, 2021 9:37 =
AM<br><b>To:</b> [email-masked]; [email-masked]; =
[email-masked]<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Tigers] Front =
suspension<o:p></o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>I'm=
 far from expert...maybe a layman open to experimenting =
lol&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'><o:=
p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>I =
think a lot of guys building Mustangs, Camaros etc still do the Shelby =
drop (relocating the upper control arm downwards). But, I don't know how =
it would work on a Tiger, as we run into control arm clearance to =
unibody issues pretty quickly at the fastener to the rear (if you follow =
what I'm saying) when shimming for negative camber. That clearance =
becomes even less when you start looking at dropping the physical =
location of the UCA. So, the question would be whether the negative =
camber gained in drop would offset the loss of ability to shim, I guess. =
But, yeah, the camber curve should =
improve.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'><o:=
p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>Won=
der if anyone has done it?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'><o:=
p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>Mik=
e<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'><br=
><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: GARY WINBLAD &lt;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>garywinblad@com=
cast.net</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>&gt=
;<br>To: Michael Wood &lt;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>mwood24020@aol.=
com</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>&gt=
;; </span><a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>blance598@gmail=
.com</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'> =
&lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>blance598@gmail=
.com</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>&gt=
;; </span><a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>[email-masked]=
am.net</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'> =
&lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>[email-masked]=
am.net</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>&gt=
;<br>Sent: Fri, Oct 1, 2021 9:23 am<br>Subject: Re: [Tigers] Front =
suspension<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div =
id=3Dyiv1610308570><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>Mik=
e, <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>Tha=
nks for your expert analysis! <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>Yes=
, I never did find what Ackerman is best either..&nbsp; I heard Doane =
speak and he said the reverse Ackerman is actually an advantage when you =
are <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>cou=
ntersteering (what I think he meant).&nbsp; I wrote a program to figure =
out how it works on the Tiger.&nbsp; Turns out Ackerman is not really =
that bad until <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>you=
 get to pretty extreme steering angles, so on a big track it isn't =
really that bad.&nbsp; And with initial toe-out dialed in it might not =
be that bad on a really <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>tig=
ht course.&nbsp; And because of the fulcrum pin issue, I NEVER go full =
lock anymore, even parking. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>Yea=
h camber... why did the lowered a-arm trick seem to work back in the day =
but isn't used anymore?&nbsp; The GT-350s I have looked at still have =
it. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>I =
know it was bad for braking but so is initial negative camber? =
<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>Hea=
vy steering, why I left my big stock steering wheel. =
<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>Gar=
y <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'><o:=
p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div =
id=3Dyiv1610308570yqt43507><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>On =
10/01/2021 11:54 AM Michael Wood &lt;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>mwood24020@aol.=
com</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>&gt=
; wrote: <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'><o:=
p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'><o:=
p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>Gar=
y, I think you nailed it, reverse Ackermann leads to some funky slip =
angles and strangely heavy steering, particularly felt at low =
speeds...the front tires are literally fighting each other. The fact we =
all typically add wider wheels makes the steering even heavier (both =
contact patch to move around and scrub radius). Finally, maxing out =
caster with wedges (which I do) makes it even worse!&nbsp; =
<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>The=
 longer MG steering arms help, I've found on cars I've driven so =
equipped, but I haven't bothered to do on my car. Toe out changes the =
slip angle and also helps get the car to turn in, but I only go to toe =
out (1/4&quot;) when autocrossing, as toe out also is a great way to =
kill tires. Besides the poor camber curve, Ackerman is another reason =
why I run as much negative camber as possible...if the outside wheel =
isn't technically aligned to the turn radius correctly, at least I can =
maximize the unaligned contact patch in roll lol. Funny thing, even the =
real experts I've read can't seem to agree on &quot;Ackermann&quot;, =
because there are so many other variables. =
<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>I =
don't know, outside of a custom solution like Dale's or Hokanson's front =
ends, of a real fix. I've just learned to live with heavy steering, but =
if it really is a problem, going to stock width wheels and smaller =
section width tires really makes a difference. The electric power =
steering solution has gotten to be a pretty easy&nbsp;deal, but that =
obviously does nothing to address the underlying geometry issues. =
<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>Mik=
e <br><br><br>-----Original Message----- <br>From: GARY WINBLAD =
&lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>garywinblad@com=
cast.net</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>&gt=
; <br>To: Lance Beauchamp &lt;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>blance598@gmail=
.com</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>&gt=
;; Tiger List &lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>[email-masked]=
am.net</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>&gt=
; <br>Sent: Fri, Oct 1, 2021 7:42 am <br>Subject: Re: [Tigers] Front =
suspension <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div =
id=3Dyiv1610308570><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>Lan=
ce, <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>&nb=
sp;There are a couple more expensive solutions that might be still =
available. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>Dal=
e did design and make an entire front crossmember/suspension.&nbsp; It =
fixed the geometry but was about $5K <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>las=
t I heard, and he might have stopped making them. =
<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>Peo=
ple (mostly in EU) have put in electric power steering.&nbsp; It mounts =
up under the dash so it all looks stock, =
<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>wou=
ld be great in a parking lot or tight course.&nbsp; Others have put in =
conventional hydraulic power steering. =
<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>She=
lby had his guys put in a Miata power rack in his wife's Tiger for =
instance. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>Gar=
y <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'><o:=
p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>On =
10/01/2021 9:36 AM Lance Beauchamp &lt;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>blance598@gmail=
.com</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>&gt=
; wrote: <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'><o:=
p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'><o:=
p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>So =
it is what it is, end of story, thank very much for a really good =
explanation,&nbsp; still love the car. Beau&nbsp; =
<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'><o:=
p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>On =
Thu, Sep 30, 2021, 10:13 PM GARY WINBLAD &lt;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>garywinblad@com=
cast.net</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>&gt=
; wrote: <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>HI =
Lance, <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>Ste=
ering geometry is a real problem.&nbsp; Shelby throwing the rack way out =
in front of the engine was a quick solution. =
<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>Roo=
tes didn't want to change a Shelby design... so we suffer today.&nbsp; =
Doane knew it was a problem but he thought =
<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>Roo=
tes would build a new crossmember. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>The=
 problem is when you go around a corner, the inside wheel needs to run a =
smaller radius turn than the outside. =
<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>Toe=
 in on turns or Ackerman geometry is what it is called.&nbsp; &nbsp;The =
Tiger has reverse Ackerman, the inner wheel turns =
<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>a =
larger radius!&nbsp; When I used to push my Tiger out to my slightly =
downhill driveway it was easier to turn the wheel =
<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>ful=
l lock than to reach down and pull the parking brake... what a great =
design Shelby! <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>On =
a tight autocross course or a parking lot this is really less than =
ideal...&nbsp; MIKE analysis?? <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>On =
a big course it might not make such a difference though Jim Adams said =
he had to &quot;toss the Tiger like a sprint =
<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>car=
&quot;&nbsp; (keeping it jumping and sliding rather than be smooth.. I =
hear that as...). <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'><o:=
p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>Lon=
ger MGB steering arms and initial toe-out is the small solution Dale =
has... <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>You=
 may notice, its hard to turn the wheel at slow speeds, especially with =
big sticky tires. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>But=
 once you go into a fairly tight turn, it becomes easier as both tires =
lose contact.. and the Tiger goes straight =
<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>off=
 the corner... <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'><o:=
p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>Mik=
e, do I have it anywhere correct? <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>Gar=
y W. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'><o:=
p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>On =
09/30/2021 9:55 PM Lance Beauchamp &lt;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>blance598@gmail=
.com</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>&gt=
; wrote: <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'><o:=
p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'><o:=
p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>You=
 say you spend alot of time on suspension Gary, can you tell me how to =
make the Tiger easier to turn at lower speeds, like 15 mph or under. I =
always&nbsp; blame the steering&nbsp; geometry,&nbsp; is it all =
that?&nbsp; Beau&nbsp; =
<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div></block=
quote></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>___=
____________________________________________ <br><br></span><a =
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am.net</span></a><span =
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</div></body></html>
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[email-masked]

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---

From: Michael Wood via Tigers <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 17:36:00 +0000 (UTC)

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Very cool, Jim. Thanks for sharing the details, particularly the math aroun=
d camber with the change in UCA angle :)

-----Original Message-----
From: jim <[email-masked]>
To: 'Michael Wood' <[email-masked]>; [email-masked]; blance598=
@gmail.com; [email-masked]
Sent: Fri, Oct 1, 2021 10:22 am
Subject: RE: [Tigers] Front suspension

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I=E2=80=99m definitely a layman but like to tweak things !!!

 =C2=A0

My car has the 1976 suspension tuning added holes to fully relocate the upp=
er A-arms and I=E2=80=99ve kept that setup. Other than minimal shimming for=
 castor the camber will NOT go to zero ( or positive) and I have about 1 de=
gree negative =E2=80=A6 I have a unique brake setup with 11=E2=80=9D Porsch=
e rotors on adapters and Wilwood Dynalite =C2=A0calipers behind 14=E2=80=9D=
 3 piece wheels. I changed the steering arms to the MGB one when I installe=
d the Mazda power steering. The mounting holes for the MGB arms are paralle=
l =C2=A0so require a spacer to mount them in stock location. I saw a potent=
ial ( because my Wilwood brake mount ) to move the steering arm outboard bu=
t that would also require the caliper and rotor to move the same amount. I =
managed to move it all outboard =C2=BC=E2=80=9D and with the slight offset =
of the MGB arm, it=E2=80=99s almost =C2=BD=E2=80=9D gain in reality. I bolt=
ed the wheels back on and it =E2=80=98seemed=E2=80=99 to spin freely so I t=
ook it for a drive and heard a slight =E2=80=98ticking=E2=80=99 in the whee=
ls. It turned out that both wheels had a couple of stick on wheel weights o=
n the inside and the calipers were just grazing the as they are about 1/8=
=E2=80=9D thick. A couple minutes with the grinder shaved off enough and it=
s never been a problem since!=C2=A0 I did the math back then and can=E2=80=
=99t remember exactly but it certainly ( on paper ) improved the ackerman

Maybe I shouldn=E2=80=99t have cancelled my =E2=80=9Chokanson=E2=80=99 fron=
t end order years ago but what would I do with my free time ??=C2=A0 lol!

 =C2=A0

Jim

B382000446

 =C2=A0

From: Tigers <[email-masked]> On Behalf Of Michael Wood via =
Tigers
Sent: Friday, October 01, 2021 9:37 AM
To: [email-masked]; [email-masked]; [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Tigers] Front suspension

 =C2=A0

 =C2=A0

 =C2=A0

 =C2=A0

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: GARY WINBLAD <[email-masked]>
To: Michael Wood <[email-masked]>; [email-masked] <blance598@gmail=

Mike,=20

Yes, I never did find what Ackerman is best either..=C2=A0 I heard Doane sp=
eak and he said the reverse Ackerman is actually an advantage when you are=
=20

countersteering (what I think he meant).=C2=A0 I wrote a program to figure =
out how it works on the Tiger.=C2=A0 Turns out Ackerman is not really that =
bad until=20

you get to pretty extreme steering angles, so on a big track it isn't reall=
y that bad.=C2=A0 And with initial toe-out dialed in it might not be that b=
ad on a really=20

tight course.=C2=A0 And because of the fulcrum pin issue, I NEVER go full l=
ock anymore, even parking.=20

Yeah camber... why did the lowered a-arm trick seem to work back in the day=
 but isn't used anymore?=C2=A0 The GT-350s I have looked at still have it.=
=20

Gary=20

 =C2=A0

On 10/01/2021 11:54 AM Michael Wood <[email-masked]> wrote:=20

 =C2=A0

 =C2=A0

makes it even worse!=C2=A0=20

The longer MG steering arms help, I've found on cars I've driven so equippe=
d, but I haven't bothered to do on my car. Toe out changes the slip angle a=
nd also helps get the car to turn in, but I only go to toe out (1/4") when =
autocrossing, as toe out also is a great way to kill tires. Besides the poo=
r camber curve, Ackerman is another reason why I run as much negative cambe=
r as possible...if the outside wheel isn't technically aligned to the turn =
radius correctly, at least I can maximize the unaligned contact patch in ro=
ll lol. Funny thing, even the real experts I've read can't seem to agree on=
 "Ackermann", because there are so many other variables.=20

I don't know, outside of a custom solution like Dale's or Hokanson's front =
ends, of a real fix. I've just learned to live with heavy steering, but if =
it really is a problem, going to stock width wheels and smaller section wid=
th tires really makes a difference. The electric power steering solution ha=
s gotten to be a pretty easy=C2=A0deal, but that obviously does nothing to =
address the underlying geometry issues.=20

Mike=20

Lance,=20

=C2=A0There are a couple more expensive solutions that might be still avail=
able.=20

Dale did design and make an entire front crossmember/suspension.=C2=A0 It f=
ixed the geometry but was about $5K=20

People (mostly in EU) have put in electric power steering.=C2=A0 It mounts =
up under the dash so it all looks stock,=20

would be great in a parking lot or tight course.=C2=A0 Others have put in c=
onventional hydraulic power steering.=20

Shelby had his guys put in a Miata power rack in his wife's Tiger for insta=
nce.=20

Gary=20

 =C2=A0

On 10/01/2021 9:36 AM Lance Beauchamp <[email-masked]> wrote:=20

 =C2=A0

 =C2=A0

So it is what it is, end of story, thank very much for a really good explan=
ation,=C2=A0 still love the car. Beau=C2=A0=20

 =C2=A0

On Thu, Sep 30, 2021, 10:13 PM GARY WINBLAD <[email-masked]> wrote=
:=20

HI Lance,=20

Steering geometry is a real problem.=C2=A0 Shelby throwing the rack way out=
 in front of the engine was a quick solution.=20

Rootes didn't want to change a Shelby design... so we suffer today.=C2=A0 D=
oane knew it was a problem but he thought=20

The problem is when you go around a corner, the inside wheel needs to run a=
 smaller radius turn than the outside.=20

Toe in on turns or Ackerman geometry is what it is called.=C2=A0 =C2=A0The =
Tiger has reverse Ackerman, the inner wheel turns=20

a larger radius!=C2=A0 When I used to push my Tiger out to my slightly down=
hill driveway it was easier to turn the wheel=20

full lock than to reach down and pull the parking brake... what a great des=
ign Shelby!=20

On a tight autocross course or a parking lot this is really less than ideal=
...=C2=A0 MIKE analysis??=20

On a big course it might not make such a difference though Jim Adams said h=
e had to "toss the Tiger like a sprint=20

car"=C2=A0 (keeping it jumping and sliding rather than be smooth.. I hear t=
hat as...).=20

 =C2=A0

Longer MGB steering arms and initial toe-out is the small solution Dale has=
...=20

You may notice, its hard to turn the wheel at slow speeds, especially with =
big sticky tires.=20

But once you go into a fairly tight turn, it becomes easier as both tires l=
ose contact.. and the Tiger goes straight=20

off the corner...=20

 =C2=A0

Gary W.=20

 =C2=A0

On 09/30/2021 9:55 PM Lance Beauchamp <[email-masked]> wrote:=20

 =C2=A0

 =C2=A0

You say you spend alot of time on suspension Gary, can you tell me how to m=
ake the Tiger easier to turn at lower speeds, like 15 mph or under. I alway=
s=C2=A0 blame the steering=C2=A0 geometry,=C2=A0 is it all that?=C2=A0 Beau=
=C2=A0=20

[email-masked]=20

------=_Part_520073_600612928.1633109760450
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;color:b=
lack;"><div style=3D"font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10=
pt; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f; font-size: 10pt; color: black;">Very cool, Jim. Thanks for sharing the d=
etails, particularly the math around camber with the change in UCA angle :)=
</div><div style=3D"font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10p=
t; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif=
; font-size: 10pt; color: black;"><br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>Fro=
m: jim &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>To: 'Michael Wood' &lt;[email-masked]&=
gt;; [email-masked]; [email-masked]; [email-masked]<br=
>Sent: Fri, Oct 1, 2021 10:22 am<br>Subject: RE: [Tigers] Front suspension<=
br><br></div><div id=3D"yiv0727719321"><style><!--
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=09{}
--></style><div><div class=3D"yiv0727719321WordSection1"><p class=3D"yiv072=
7719321MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA">I=E2=80=99m definitely a layman but =
like to tweak things !!!</span></p><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><spa=
n lang=3D"EN-CA"> &nbsp;</span></p><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><spa=
n lang=3D"EN-CA">My car has the 1976 suspension tuning added holes to fully=
 relocate the upper A-arms and I=E2=80=99ve kept that setup. Other than min=
imal shimming for castor the camber will NOT go to zero ( or positive) and =
I have about 1 degree negative =E2=80=A6 I have a unique brake setup with 1=
1=E2=80=9D Porsche rotors on adapters and Wilwood Dynalite &nbsp;calipers b=
ehind 14=E2=80=9D 3 piece wheels. I changed the steering arms to the MGB on=
e when I installed the Mazda power steering. The mounting holes for the MGB=
 arms are parallel &nbsp;so require a spacer to mount them in stock locatio=
n. I saw a potential ( because my Wilwood brake mount ) to move the steerin=
g arm outboard but that would also require the caliper and rotor to move th=
e same amount. I managed to move it all outboard =C2=BC=E2=80=9D and with t=
he slight offset of the MGB arm, it=E2=80=99s almost =C2=BD=E2=80=9D gain i=
n reality. I bolted the wheels back on and it =E2=80=98seemed=E2=80=99 to s=
pin freely so I took it for a drive and heard a slight =E2=80=98ticking=E2=
=80=99 in the wheels. It turned out that both wheels had a couple of stick =
on wheel weights on the inside and the calipers were just grazing the as th=
ey are about 1/8=E2=80=9D thick. A couple minutes with the grinder shaved o=
ff enough and its never been a problem since!&nbsp; I did the math back the=
n and can=E2=80=99t remember exactly but it certainly ( on paper ) improved=
 the ackerman</span></p><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"E=
N-CA">Maybe I shouldn=E2=80=99t have cancelled my =E2=80=9Chokanson=E2=80=
=99 front end order years ago but what would I do with my free time ??&nbsp=
; lol!</span></p><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA"> =
&nbsp;</span></p><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA">J=
im</span></p><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA">B3820=
00446</span><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-family: UI sans-serif;" data=
-mce-style=3D"font-family: UI sans-serif;"></span></p><p class=3D"yiv072771=
9321MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA"> &nbsp;</span></p><div class=3D"yiv0727=
719321yqt1928006009" id=3D"yiv0727719321yqt55959"><div style=3D"border: non=
e; border-top: solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt; padding: 3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;" data-mce-s=
tyle=3D"border: none; border-top: solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt; padding: 3.0pt 0in 0=
in 0in;"><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Tigers &lt;tigers=
[email-masked]&gt; <b>On Behalf Of </b>Michael Wood via Tigers<br =
clear=3D"none"><b>Sent:</b> Friday, October 01, 2021 9:37 AM<br clear=3D"no=
ne"><b>To:</b> [email-masked]; [email-masked]; [email-masked]=
eam.net<br clear=3D"none"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Tigers] Front suspension</p>=
</div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"> &nbsp;</p><div><div><p class=3D"=
yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans=
-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sa=
ns-serif; color: black;">I'm far from expert...maybe a layman open to exper=
imenting lol&nbsp;</span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"=
><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" =
data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;=
"> &nbsp;</span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span st=
yle=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-=
style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;">I think=
 a lot of guys building Mustangs, Camaros etc still do the Shelby drop (rel=
ocating the upper control arm downwards). But, I don't know how it would wo=
rk on a Tiger, as we run into control arm clearance to unibody issues prett=
y quickly at the fastener to the rear (if you follow what I'm saying) when =
shimming for negative camber. That clearance becomes even less when you sta=
rt looking at dropping the physical location of the UCA. So, the question w=
ould be whether the negative camber gained in drop would offset the loss of=
 ability to shim, I guess. But, yeah, the camber curve should improve.&nbsp=
;</span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D=
"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;"> &nbsp;</span><=
/p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:=
 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-siz=
e: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;">Wonder if anyone has don=
e it?</span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=
=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-sty=
le=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;"> &nbsp;</s=
pan></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-=
size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"fon=
t-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;">Mike</span></p></di=
v><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom: 12.0pt;"=
 data-mce-style=3D"margin-bottom: 12.0pt;"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt=
; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0=
pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;"><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D=
"none">-----Original Message-----<br clear=3D"none">From: GARY WINBLAD &lt;=
</span><a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"ma=
ilto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:garywinblad@=
comcast.net"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif;" da=
ta-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif;">garywinblad@co=
mcast.net</span></a><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-ser=
if; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-s=
erif; color: black;">&gt;<br clear=3D"none">To: Michael Wood &lt;</span><a =
rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:mwood=
[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif;" data-mce-style=3D"font=
-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif;">[email-masked]</span></a><span=
 style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-m=
ce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;">&gt;=
; </span><a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"=
mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:blance598@gmai=
l.com"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif;" data-mce=
-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif;">[email-masked]<=
/span></a><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color:=
 black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; colo=
r: black;"> &lt;</span><a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rec=
t" ymailto=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:=
[email-masked]"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-se=
rif;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif;">blance=
[email-masked]</span></a><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans=
-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sa=
ns-serif; color: black;">&gt;; </span><a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferre=
r" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank=
" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; f=
ont-family: sans-serif;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: =
sans-serif;">[email-masked]</span></a><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0=
pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10=
.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;"> &lt;</span><a rel=3D"nofollo=
w noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:[email-masked]=
et" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]"><span style=3D"=
font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 1=
0.0pt; font-family: sans-serif;">[email-masked]</span></a><span styl=
e=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-st=
yle=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;">&gt;<br c=
lear=3D"none">Sent: Fri, Oct 1, 2021 9:23 am<br clear=3D"none">Subject: Re:=
 [Tigers] Front suspension</span></p></div><div id=3D"yiv0727719321"><div><=
div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; f=
ont-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt;=
 font-family: sans-serif; color: black;">Mike, </span></p></div><div><p cla=
ss=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family=
: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-fami=
ly: sans-serif; color: black;">Thanks for your expert analysis! </span></p>=
</div><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10=
.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: =
10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;">Yes, I never did find what =
Ackerman is best either..&nbsp; I heard Doane speak and he said the reverse=
 Ackerman is actually an advantage when you are </span></p></div><div><p cl=
ass=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-famil=
y: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-fam=
ily: sans-serif; color: black;">countersteering (what I think he meant).&nb=
sp; I wrote a program to figure out how it works on the Tiger.&nbsp; Turns =
out Ackerman is not really that bad until </span></p></div><div><p class=3D=
"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: san=
s-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: s=
ans-serif; color: black;">you get to pretty extreme steering angles, so on =
a big track it isn't really that bad.&nbsp; And with initial toe-out dialed=
 in it might not be that bad on a really </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"=
yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans=
-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sa=
ns-serif; color: black;">tight course.&nbsp; And because of the fulcrum pin=
 issue, I NEVER go full lock anymore, even parking. </span></p></div><div><=
p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-f=
amily: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font=
-family: sans-serif; color: black;">Yeah camber... why did the lowered a-ar=
m trick seem to work back in the day but isn't used anymore?&nbsp; The GT-3=
50s I have looked at still have it. </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv07=
27719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-seri=
f; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-se=
rif; color: black;">I know it was bad for braking but so is initial negativ=
e camber? </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce=
-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;">Heavy =
steering, why I left my big stock steering wheel. </span></p></div><div><p =
class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-fam=
ily: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-f=
amily: sans-serif; color: black;">Gary </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yi=
v0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-s=
erif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans=
-serif; color: black;"> &nbsp;</span></p></div><div id=3D"yiv0727719321yqt4=
3507"><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5.0pt; margin-bottom: 5.0pt;" data-m=
ce-style=3D"margin-top: 5.0pt; margin-bottom: 5.0pt;"><div><p class=3D"yiv0=
727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-ser=
if; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-s=
erif; color: black;">On 10/01/2021 11:54 AM Michael Wood &lt;</span><a rel=
=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:mwood240=
[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]"><span styl=
e=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif;" data-mce-style=3D"font-si=
ze: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif;">[email-masked]</span></a><span st=
yle=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-=
style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;">&gt; wr=
ote: </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=
=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-sty=
le=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;"> &nbsp;</s=
pan></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-=
size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"fon=
t-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;"> &nbsp;</span></p><=
/div><div><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size=
: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-si=
ze: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;">Gary, I think you naile=
d it, reverse Ackermann leads to some funky slip angles and strangely heavy=
 steering, particularly felt at low speeds...the front tires are literally =
fighting each other. The fact we all typically add wider wheels makes the s=
teering even heavier (both contact patch to move around and scrub radius). =
Finally, maxing out caster with wedges (which I do) makes it even worse!&nb=
sp; </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=
=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-sty=
le=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;">The longer=
 MG steering arms help, I've found on cars I've driven so equipped, but I h=
aven't bothered to do on my car. Toe out changes the slip angle and also he=
lps get the car to turn in, but I only go to toe out (1/4") when autocrossi=
ng, as toe out also is a great way to kill tires. Besides the poor camber c=
urve, Ackerman is another reason why I run as much negative camber as possi=
ble...if the outside wheel isn't technically aligned to the turn radius cor=
rectly, at least I can maximize the unaligned contact patch in roll lol. Fu=
nny thing, even the real experts I've read can't seem to agree on "Ackerman=
n", because there are so many other variables. </span></p></div><div><p cla=
ss=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family=
: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-fami=
ly: sans-serif; color: black;">I don't know, outside of a custom solution l=
ike Dale's or Hokanson's front ends, of a real fix. I've just learned to li=
ve with heavy steering, but if it really is a problem, going to stock width=
 wheels and smaller section width tires really makes a difference. The elec=
tric power steering solution has gotten to be a pretty easy&nbsp;deal, but =
that obviously does nothing to address the underlying geometry issues. </sp=
an></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-botto=
m: 12.0pt;" data-mce-style=3D"margin-bottom: 12.0pt;"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font=
-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;">Mike <br clear=3D"no=
ne"><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">-----Original Message----- <br cl=
ear=3D"none">From: GARY WINBLAD &lt;</span><a rel=3D"nofollow noopener nore=
ferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D=
"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]"><span style=3D"font-size: =
10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font=
-family: sans-serif;">[email-masked]</span></a><span style=3D"font=
-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"fo=
nt-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;">&gt; <br clear=3D"=
none">To: Lance Beauchamp &lt;</span><a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer=
" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank" h=
ref=3D"mailto:[email-masked]"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-f=
amily: sans-serif;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-=
serif;">[email-masked]</span></a><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; fon=
t-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; f=
ont-family: sans-serif; color: black;">&gt;; Tiger List &lt;</span><a rel=
=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:tigers@a=
utox.team.net" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]"><spa=
n style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif;" data-mce-style=3D"f=
ont-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif;">[email-masked]</span></a=
><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" =
data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;=
">&gt; <br clear=3D"none">Sent: Fri, Oct 1, 2021 7:42 am <br clear=3D"none"=
>Subject: Re: [Tigers] Front suspension </span></p></div><div id=3D"yiv0727=
719321"><div><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font=
-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;">Lance, </span></p></=
div><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0=
pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10=
.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;">&nbsp;There are a couple more=
 expensive solutions that might be still available. </span></p></div><div><=
p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-f=
amily: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font=
-family: sans-serif; color: black;">Dale did design and make an entire fron=
t crossmember/suspension.&nbsp; It fixed the geometry but was about $5K </s=
pan></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-=
size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"fon=
t-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;">last I heard, and h=
e might have stopped making them. </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv0727=
719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif;=
 color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-seri=
f; color: black;">People (mostly in EU) have put in electric power steering=
.&nbsp; It mounts up under the dash so it all looks stock, </span></p></div=
><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt;=
 font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0p=
t; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;">would be great in a parking lot =
or tight course.&nbsp; Others have put in conventional hydraulic power stee=
ring. </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=
=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-sty=
le=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;">Shelby had=
 his guys put in a Miata power rack in his wife's Tiger for instance. </spa=
n></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-=
size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;">Gary </span></p></div=
><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt;=
 font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0p=
t; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;"> &nbsp;</span></p></div><blockqu=
ote style=3D"margin-top: 5.0pt; margin-bottom: 5.0pt;" data-mce-style=3D"ma=
rgin-top: 5.0pt; margin-bottom: 5.0pt;"><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNo=
rmal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: bla=
ck;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: b=
lack;">On 10/01/2021 9:36 AM Lance Beauchamp &lt;</span><a rel=3D"nofollow =
noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt;=
 font-family: sans-serif;">[email-masked]</span></a><span style=3D"fon=
t-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"f=
ont-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;">&gt; wrote: </spa=
n></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-=
size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;"> &nbsp;</span></p></d=
iv><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0p=
t; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.=
0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;"> &nbsp;</span></p></div><div><=
p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-f=
amily: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font=
-family: sans-serif; color: black;">So it is what it is, end of story, than=
k very much for a really good explanation,&nbsp; still love the car. Beau&n=
bsp; </span></p></div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"=
font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;"> &nbsp;</span></=
p><div><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 1=
0.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size:=
 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;">On Thu, Sep 30, 2021, 10:1=
3 PM GARY WINBLAD &lt;</span><a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=
=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank" href=
=3D"mailto:[email-masked]"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-=
family: sans-serif;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans=
-serif;">[email-masked]</span></a><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt=
; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0=
pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;">&gt; wrote: </span></p></div><b=
lockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5.0pt; margin-bottom: 5.0pt;" data-mce-style=
=3D"margin-top: 5.0pt; margin-bottom: 5.0pt;"><div><div><p class=3D"yiv0727=
719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif;=
 color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-seri=
f; color: black;">HI Lance, </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321=
MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color=
: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; col=
or: black;">Steering geometry is a real problem.&nbsp; Shelby throwing the =
rack way out in front of the engine was a quick solution. </span></p></div>=
<div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; =
font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt=
; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;">Rootes didn't want to change a Sh=
elby design... so we suffer today.&nbsp; Doane knew it was a problem but he=
 thought </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span st=
yle=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-=
style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;">Rootes =
would build a new crossmember. </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719=
321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; co=
lor: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; =
color: black;">The problem is when you go around a corner, the inside wheel=
 needs to run a smaller radius turn than the outside. </span></p></div><div=
><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font=
-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; fo=
nt-family: sans-serif; color: black;">Toe in on turns or Ackerman geometry =
is what it is called.&nbsp; &nbsp;The Tiger has reverse Ackerman, the inner=
 wheel turns </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><spa=
n style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-=
mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;">a l=
arger radius!&nbsp; When I used to push my Tiger out to my slightly downhil=
l driveway it was easier to turn the wheel </span></p></div><div><p class=
=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: =
sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family=
: sans-serif; color: black;">full lock than to reach down and pull the park=
ing brake... what a great design Shelby! </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"=
yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans=
-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sa=
ns-serif; color: black;">On a tight autocross course or a parking lot this =
is really less than ideal...&nbsp; MIKE analysis?? </span></p></div><div><p=
 class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-fa=
mily: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-=
family: sans-serif; color: black;">On a big course it might not make such a=
 difference though Jim Adams said he had to "toss the Tiger like a sprint <=
/span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"f=
ont-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;">car"&nbsp; (keepi=
ng it jumping and sliding rather than be smooth.. I hear that as...). </spa=
n></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-=
size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;"> &nbsp;</span></p></d=
iv><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0p=
t; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.=
0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;">Longer MGB steering arms and i=
nitial toe-out is the small solution Dale has... </span></p></div><div><p c=
lass=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-fami=
ly: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-fa=
mily: sans-serif; color: black;">You may notice, its hard to turn the wheel=
 at slow speeds, especially with big sticky tires. </span></p></div><div><p=
 class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-fa=
mily: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-=
family: sans-serif; color: black;">But once you go into a fairly tight turn=
, it becomes easier as both tires lose contact.. and the Tiger goes straigh=
t </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"=
font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=
=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;">off the corn=
er... </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=
=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-sty=
le=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;"> &nbsp;</s=
pan></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-=
size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"fon=
t-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;">Mike, do I have it =
anywhere correct? </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"=
><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" =
data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;=
">Gary W. </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce=
-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;"> &nbsp=
;</span></p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5.0pt; margin-bottom: 5.=
0pt;" data-mce-style=3D"margin-top: 5.0pt; margin-bottom: 5.0pt;"><div><p c=
lass=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-fami=
ly: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-fa=
mily: sans-serif; color: black;">On 09/30/2021 9:55 PM Lance Beauchamp &lt;=
</span><a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"ma=
ilto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:blance598@gmail.=
com"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif;" data-mce-s=
tyle=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif;">[email-masked]</s=
pan></a><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: b=
lack;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color:=
 black;">&gt; wrote: </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNorm=
al"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black=
;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: bla=
ck;"> &nbsp;</span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span=
 style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-m=
ce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;"> &nb=
sp;</span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D=
"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=
=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;">You say you =
spend alot of time on suspension Gary, can you tell me how to make the Tige=
r easier to turn at lower speeds, like 15 mph or under. I always&nbsp; blam=
e the steering&nbsp; geometry,&nbsp; is it all that?&nbsp; Beau&nbsp; </spa=
n></p></div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div></div>=
<p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom: 12.0pt;" data-m=
ce-style=3D"margin-bottom: 12.0pt;"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-=
family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; fon=
t-family: sans-serif; color: black;">______________________________________=
_________ <br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"></span><a rel=3D"nofollow n=
oopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:[email-masked]"=
 target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0=
pt; font-family: sans-serif;">[email-masked]</span></a><span style=
=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-sty=
le=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;"> <br clear=
=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">Donate: </span><a rel=3D"nofollow noopener nor=
eferrer" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://www.team.net/donat=
e.html"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif;" data-mc=
e-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif;">http://www.team.net=
/donate.html</span></a><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-=
serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: san=
s-serif; color: black;"> <br clear=3D"none">Archive: </span><a rel=3D"nofol=
low noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://ww=
w.team.net/pipermail/tigers"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family:=
 sans-serif;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif;=
">http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers </span></a><a rel=3D"nofollow noopen=
er noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://autox.team.n=
et/archive"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif;" dat=
a-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif;">http://autox.te=
am.net/archive</span></a><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: san=
s-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: s=
ans-serif; color: black;"> <br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">Unsubscrib=
e: </span><a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"=
_blank" href=3D"http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/mwood24020@aol=
.com"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif;" data-mce-=
style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif;">http://autox.team.net=
/mailman/options/tigers/[email-masked]</span></a><span style=3D"font-si=
ze: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-=
size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;"> <br clear=3D"none"><=
br clear=3D"none"></span></p></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></d=
iv></div></div></div></div>
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[email-masked]

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---

From: Jay via Tigers <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 10:38:52 -0700

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	charset=utf-8

And if it hasn=E2=80=99t been said already, as I understand it, the =
times it causes the A arm mount pins to break is when someone is =
reversing at full lock.  So always avoid full lock on reverse.

> On Oct 1, 2021, at 8:54 AM, Michael Wood via Tigers =
<[email-masked]> wrote:
>=20
> Gary, I think you nailed it, reverse Ackermann leads to some funky =
slip angles and strangely heavy steering, particularly felt at low =
speeds...the front tires are literally fighting each other. The fact we =
all typically add wider wheels makes the steering even heavier (both =
contact patch to move around and scrub radius). Finally, maxing out =
caster with wedges (which I do) makes it even worse!=20
are so many other variables.
obviously does nothing to address the underlying geometry issues.
> To: Lance Beauchamp <[email-masked]>; Tiger List =
<[email-masked]>
>  There are a couple more expensive solutions that might be still =
available.
> Dale did design and make an entire front crossmember/suspension.  It =
fixed the geometry but was about $5K
> People (mostly in EU) have put in electric power steering.  It mounts =
up under the dash so it all looks stock,
> would be great in a parking lot or tight course.  Others have put in =
conventional hydraulic power steering.
> Shelby had his guys put in a Miata power rack in his wife's Tiger for =
instance.
>> So it is what it is, end of story, thank very much for a really good =
explanation,  still love the car. Beau=20
>>=20
>> On Thu, Sep 30, 2021, 10:13 PM GARY WINBLAD <[email-masked] =
>> HI Lance,
>> Steering geometry is a real problem.  Shelby throwing the rack way =
out in front of the engine was a quick solution.
>> Rootes didn't want to change a Shelby design... so we suffer today.  =
Doane knew it was a problem but he thought
>> The problem is when you go around a corner, the inside wheel needs to =
run a smaller radius turn than the outside.
>> Toe in on turns or Ackerman geometry is what it is called.   The =
Tiger has reverse Ackerman, the inner wheel turns
>> a larger radius!  When I used to push my Tiger out to my slightly =
downhill driveway it was easier to turn the wheel
>> full lock than to reach down and pull the parking brake... what a =
great design Shelby!
>> On a tight autocross course or a parking lot this is really less than =
ideal...  MIKE analysis??
>> car"  (keeping it jumping and sliding rather than be smooth.. I hear =
that as...).
>>=20
>> Longer MGB steering arms and initial toe-out is the small solution =
Dale has...
>> You may notice, its hard to turn the wheel at slow speeds, especially =
with big sticky tires.
>>> On 09/30/2021 9:55 PM Lance Beauchamp <[email-masked] =
>>>=20
>>>=20
how to make the Tiger easier to turn at lower speeds, like 15 mph or =
under. I always  blame the steering  geometry,  is it all that?  Beau=20
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html =
<http://www.team.net/donate.html>
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers  =
<http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers>http://autox.team.net/archive =
<http://autox.team.net/archive>
> Unsubscribe: =
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/[email-masked] =
<http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/[email-masked]>
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers =
http://autox.team.net/archive
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--Apple-Mail=_68202C02-56F1-4A01-AA8D-FAD7E5DAD309
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">And =
if it hasn=E2=80=99t been said already, as I understand it, the times it =
causes the A arm mount pins to break is when someone is reversing at =
full lock. &nbsp;So always avoid full lock on reverse.<br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Oct 1, 2021, at 8:54 AM, Michael Wood via Tigers &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
class=3D"">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; =
font-size: 10pt;" data-mce-style=3D"font-family: =
arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; color: black;" =
class=3D"">Gary, I think you nailed it, reverse Ackermann leads to some =
funky slip angles and strangely heavy steering, particularly felt at low =
speeds...the front tires are literally fighting each other. The fact we =
all typically add wider wheels makes the steering even heavier (both =
contact patch to move around and scrub radius). Finally, maxing out =
caster with wedges (which I do) makes it even worse!&nbsp;</div><div =
style=3D"font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;" =
data-mce-style=3D"font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: =
10pt; color: black;" class=3D"">The longer MG steering arms help, I've =
found on cars I've driven so equipped, but I haven't bothered to do on =
my car. Toe out changes the slip angle and also helps get the car to =
turn in, but I only go to toe out (1/4") when autocrossing, as toe out =
also is a great way to kill tires. Besides the poor camber curve, =
Ackerman is another reason why I run as much negative camber as =
possible...if the outside wheel isn't technically aligned to the turn =
radius correctly, at least I can maximize the unaligned contact patch in =
roll lol. Funny thing, even the real experts I've read can't seem to =
agree on "Ackermann", because there are so many other =
variables.</div><div style=3D"font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; =
font-size: 10pt;" data-mce-style=3D"font-family: =
arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; color: black;" class=3D"">I =
don't know, outside of a custom solution like Dale's or Hokanson's front =
ends, of a real fix. I've just learned to live with heavy steering, but =
if it really is a problem, going to stock width wheels and smaller =
section width tires really makes a difference. The electric power =
steering solution has gotten to be a pretty easy&nbsp;deal, but that =
obviously does nothing to address the underlying geometry =
issues.</div><div style=3D"font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; =
font-size: 10pt;" data-mce-style=3D"font-family: =
arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; color: black;" =
class=3D"">Mike<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">-----Original =
Message-----<br class=3D"">From: GARY WINBLAD &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
class=3D"">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">To: Lance =
Beauchamp &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
class=3D"">[email-masked]</a>&gt;; Tiger List &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
class=3D"">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">Sent: Fri, Oct 1, =
2021 7:42 am<br class=3D"">Subject: Re: [Tigers] Front suspension<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div id=3D"yiv9946714849" class=3D"">

 =20
  =20
=20
 <div class=3D"">
  <div class=3D"">
   Lance,
  </div>
  <div class=3D"yiv9946714849default-style">
   &nbsp;There are a couple more expensive solutions that might be still =
available.
  </div>
  <div class=3D"yiv9946714849default-style">
   Dale did design and make an entire front =
crossmember/suspension.&nbsp; It fixed the geometry but was about $5K
  </div>
  <div class=3D"yiv9946714849default-style">
   last I heard, and he might have stopped making them.
  </div>
  <div class=3D"yiv9946714849default-style">
   People (mostly in EU) have put in electric power steering.&nbsp; It =
mounts up under the dash so it all looks stock,
  </div>
  <div class=3D"yiv9946714849default-style">
   would be great in a parking lot or tight course.&nbsp; Others have =
put in conventional hydraulic power steering.
  </div>
  <div class=3D"yiv9946714849default-style">
   Shelby had his guys put in a Miata power rack in his wife's Tiger for =
instance.
  </div>
  <div class=3D"yiv9946714849default-style">
   Gary
  </div>
  <div class=3D"yiv9946714849default-style">
   <br class=3D"">
  </div>
  <blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
   <div class=3D"">
    On 10/01/2021 9:36 AM Lance Beauchamp &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" class=3D"">[email-masked]</a>&gt;=
 wrote:
   </div>
   <div class=3D"">
    <br class=3D"">
   </div>
   <div class=3D"">
    <br class=3D"">
   </div>
   <div class=3D"">
    So it is what it is, end of story, thank very much for a really good =
explanation,&nbsp; still love the car. Beau&nbsp;
   </div>
   <br class=3D"">
   <div class=3D"yiv9946714849gmail_quote">
    <div class=3D"yiv9946714849gmail_attr" dir=3D"ltr">
     On Thu, Sep 30, 2021, 10:13 PM GARY WINBLAD &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow =
noopener noreferrer" ymailto=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
class=3D"">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:
     <br class=3D"">
    </div>
    <blockquote class=3D"">
     <u class=3D""></u>
     <div class=3D"">
      <div class=3D"">
       HI Lance,
      </div>
      <div class=3D"">
       Steering geometry is a real problem.&nbsp; Shelby throwing the =
rack way out in front of the engine was a quick solution.
      </div>
      <div class=3D"">
       Rootes didn't want to change a Shelby design... so we suffer =
today.&nbsp; Doane knew it was a problem but he thought
      </div>
      <div class=3D"">
       Rootes would build a new crossmember.
      </div>
      <div class=3D"">
       The problem is when you go around a corner, the inside wheel =
needs to run a smaller radius turn than the outside.
      </div>
      <div class=3D"">
       Toe in on turns or Ackerman geometry is what it is called.&nbsp; =
&nbsp;The Tiger has reverse Ackerman, the inner wheel turns
      </div>
      <div class=3D"">
       a larger radius!&nbsp; When I used to push my Tiger out to my =
slightly downhill driveway it was easier to turn the wheel
      </div>
      <div class=3D"">
       full lock than to reach down and pull the parking brake... what a =
great design Shelby!
      </div>
      <div class=3D"">
       On a tight autocross course or a parking lot this is really less =
than ideal...&nbsp; MIKE analysis??
      </div>
      <div class=3D"">
       On a big course it might not make such a difference though Jim =
Adams said he had to "toss the Tiger like a sprint
      </div>
      <div class=3D"">
       car"&nbsp; (keeping it jumping and sliding rather than be =
smooth.. I hear that as...).
      </div>
      <div class=3D"">
       <br class=3D"">
      </div>
      <div class=3D"">
       Longer MGB steering arms and initial toe-out is the small =
solution Dale has...
      </div>
      <div class=3D"">
       You may notice, its hard to turn the wheel at slow speeds, =
especially with big sticky tires.
      </div>
      <div class=3D"">
       But once you go into a fairly tight turn, it becomes easier as =
both tires lose contact.. and the Tiger goes straight
      </div>
      <div class=3D"">
       off the corner...
      </div>
      <div class=3D"">
       <br class=3D"">
      </div>
      <div class=3D"">
       Mike, do I have it anywhere correct?
      </div>
      <div class=3D"">
       Gary W.
      </div>
      <div class=3D"">
       <br class=3D"">
      </div>
      <blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
       <div class=3D"">
        On 09/30/2021 9:55 PM Lance Beauchamp &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow =
noopener noreferrer" ymailto=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
class=3D"">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:
       </div>
       <div class=3D"">
        <br class=3D"">
       </div>
       <div class=3D"">
        <br class=3D"">
       </div>
       <div class=3D"">
        You say you spend alot of time on suspension Gary, can you tell =
me how to make the Tiger easier to turn at lower speeds, like 15 mph or =
under. I always&nbsp; blame the steering&nbsp; geometry,&nbsp; is it all =
that?&nbsp; Beau&nbsp;
       </div>
      </blockquote>
     </div>
    </blockquote>
   </div>
  </blockquote>
 </div>
</div>_______________________________________________<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><a ymailto=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
class=3D"">[email-masked]</a><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Donate: =
<a href=3D"http://www.team.net/donate.html" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a><br class=3D"">Archive: <a =
href=3D"http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers </a><a =
href=3D"http://autox.team.net/archive" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">http://autox.team.net/archive</a><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Unsubscribe: <a =
href=3D"http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/[email-masked]" =
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class=3D"">http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/[email-masked]=
</a><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div>_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
class=3D"">[email-masked]</a><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Donate: =
http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers http://autox.team.net/archive<br =
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class=3D""></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_68202C02-56F1-4A01-AA8D-FAD7E5DAD309--

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[email-masked]

--===============0567873880149572460==--

---

From: Buck Trippel via Tigers <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 11:00:20 -0700

--===============6477669480210296769==
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I have a lot on my plate right now so this will have to be brief. =
I=E2=80=99m replying to Mike=E2=80=99s earlier post and not =
Jim=E2=80=99s mods.

=20

In Mike Jones=E2=80=99 talk a few weeks ago at SUNI he described some of =
the challenges that he, Kevin Beattie and the Rootes engineers =
encountered when they put the Tiger into production. He mentioned that =
they knew that the rack position made anti-Ackerman an inevitable =
problem, but they were under a deadline to put the car into immediate =
production. They did design a MK2 version would have larger =
14=E2=80=9Dwheels which could accommodate longer steering arms to lessen =
the problem as well as the larger 3-puck Girling brake package used on =
the Cobras and Austin Martins on all corners. But by the time the Mk2 =
was produced these were eliminated and only Mike=E2=80=99s relocation of =
the Panhard bar mount survived, chassis-wise.

=20

So we all know the Tiger=E2=80=99s Ackerman is terrible. It also suffers =
from a complete lack of camber gain. And its bump steer is horrendous. =
(We=E2=80=99ve carefully measured all of them.) One discovery that =
prompted a chuckle was that when the Tiger takes a set in a hard turn =
the bump steer is so bad it actually corrects some of the Ackerman =
problems. I pointed this out to Mike and expected him to identify an =
engineer who came up with this entirely creative band-aid but instead he =
said he was sure it was completely unintentional. That immediately let =
the air out of my balloon.

=20

As far as aftermarket fixes, Dale=E2=80=99s numbers look great for =
ackerman, camber gain and bump steer. I=E2=80=99ve driven Tigers with =
Hokansen=E2=80=99s mod and they drive nice but I never have seen his =
numbers.

=20

As far as mods to the stock suspension, the main problem for me is =
Camber gain. When the chassis rolls it rotates the inside of the tire =
patches off the pavement. Any real fix needs the ball joints to be an =
inch or two further apart. The Tiger spindle weighs half what a =
Pinto=E2=80=99s does. It=E2=80=99s flimsy in comparison. We have seen =
enough flexing on the race track that I have been scared to space the =
ball joints further apart. We built a spaced a setup and did a one-day =
test with it at Willow and it worked but it now sits on the shelf due to =
my reluctance to take on more risk.  MG arms take a little of the =
problem away as does milling off the =E2=80=9Cfeet=E2=80=9D on the rack =
but the aftermarket solution of putting the rack under the motor =
addresses all those problems. I think Dale is still selling his =
replacement crossmember front suspension but I suspect they will now =
cost you more than $5K.

=20

As to the electric power steering from Europe, I=E2=80=99ve installed =
and tested it. It=E2=80=99s fine around town and on twisty roads however =
I can=E2=80=99t get enough caster into a Tiger to make it reasonable to =
use on the open road. It has too much friction for our cars to overcome =
it and track straight on the highway. You have correct constantly. For =
an hour or two that=E2=80=99s OK. It=E2=80=99s so much work that an 8 or =
10 hour cross country day became impossible for me. So it now also sets =
on a shelf in the garage. I=E2=80=99m expanding the garage.

Buck Trippel=20

=20

=20

From: Tigers <[email-masked]> On Behalf Of Michael Wood =
via Tigers
Sent: Friday, October 1, 2021 9:37 AM
To: [email-masked]; [email-masked]; [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Tigers] Front suspension

=20

=20

=20

=20

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: GARY WINBLAD <[email-masked] =
Sent: Fri, Oct 1, 2021 9:23 am
Subject: Re: [Tigers] Front suspension

Mike,=20

Gary=20

=20

On 10/01/2021 11:54 AM Michael Wood <[email-masked] =

=20

=20

Mike=20

-----Original Message-----=20
From: GARY WINBLAD <[email-masked] =
Sent: Fri, Oct 1, 2021 7:42 am=20
Subject: Re: [Tigers] Front suspension=20

Lance,=20

Gary=20

=20

On 10/01/2021 9:36 AM Lance Beauchamp <[email-masked] =

=20

=20

=20

HI Lance,=20

=20

off the corner...=20

=20

Gary W.=20

=20

=20

=20

Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers  =
<http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers> http://autox.team.net/archive=20

Unsubscribe: =

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<html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" =
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vlink=3Dpurple style=3D'word-wrap:break-word'><div =
class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal>I have a lot on my plate right =
now so this will have to be brief. I=E2=80=99m replying to =
Mike=E2=80=99s earlier post and not Jim=E2=80=99s mods.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>In Mike =
Jones=E2=80=99 talk a few weeks ago at SUNI he described some of the =
challenges that he, Kevin Beattie and the Rootes engineers encountered =
when they put the Tiger into production. He mentioned that they knew =
that the rack position made anti-Ackerman an inevitable problem, but =
they were under a deadline to put the car into immediate production. =
They did design a MK2 version would have larger 14=E2=80=9Dwheels which =
could accommodate longer steering arms to lessen the problem as well as =
the larger 3-puck Girling brake package used on the Cobras and Austin =
Martins on all corners. But by the time the Mk2 was produced these were =
eliminated and only Mike=E2=80=99s relocation of the Panhard bar mount =
survived, chassis-wise.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>So we all =
know the Tiger=E2=80=99s Ackerman is terrible. It also suffers from a =
complete lack of camber gain. And its bump steer is horrendous. =
(We=E2=80=99ve carefully measured all of them.) One discovery that =
prompted a chuckle was that when the Tiger takes a set in a hard turn =
the bump steer is so bad it actually corrects some of the Ackerman =
problems. I pointed this out to Mike and expected him to identify an =
engineer who came up with this entirely creative band-aid but instead he =
said he was sure it was completely unintentional. That immediately let =
the air out of my balloon.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>As far as =
aftermarket fixes, Dale=E2=80=99s numbers look great for ackerman, =
camber gain and bump steer. I=E2=80=99ve driven Tigers with =
Hokansen=E2=80=99s mod and they drive nice but I never have seen his =
numbers.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>As far as mods to the stock suspension, the main =
problem for me is Camber gain. When the chassis rolls it rotates the =
inside of the tire patches off the pavement. Any real fix needs the ball =
joints to be an inch or two further apart. The Tiger spindle weighs half =
what a Pinto=E2=80=99s does. It=E2=80=99s flimsy in comparison. We have =
seen enough flexing on the race track that I have been scared to space =
the ball joints further apart. We built a spaced a setup and did a =
one-day test with it at Willow and it worked but it now sits on the =
shelf due to my reluctance to take on more risk.=C2=A0 MG arms take a =
little of the problem away as does milling off the =
=E2=80=9Cfeet=E2=80=9D on the rack but the aftermarket solution of =
putting the rack under the motor addresses all those problems. I think =
Dale is still selling his replacement crossmember front suspension but I =
suspect they will now cost you more than $5K.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>As to the =
electric power steering from Europe, I=E2=80=99ve installed and tested =
it. It=E2=80=99s fine around town and on twisty roads however I =
can=E2=80=99t get enough caster into a Tiger to make it reasonable to =
use on the open road. It has too much friction for our cars to overcome =
it and track straight on the highway. You have correct constantly. For =
an hour or two that=E2=80=99s OK. It=E2=80=99s so much work that an 8 or =
10 hour cross country day became impossible for me. So it now also sets =
on a shelf in the garage. I=E2=80=99m expanding the =
garage.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Buck Trippel <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b>From:</b> Tigers =
&lt;[email-masked]&gt; <b>On Behalf Of </b>Michael Wood =
via Tigers<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, October 1, 2021 9:37 AM<br><b>To:</b> =
[email-masked]; [email-masked]; =
[email-masked]<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Tigers] Front =
suspension<o:p></o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>I'm=
 far from expert...maybe a layman open to experimenting =
lol&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'><o:=
p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>I =
think a lot of guys building Mustangs, Camaros etc still do the Shelby =
drop (relocating the upper control arm downwards). But, I don't know how =
it would work on a Tiger, as we run into control arm clearance to =
unibody issues pretty quickly at the fastener to the rear (if you follow =
what I'm saying) when shimming for negative camber. That clearance =
becomes even less when you start looking at dropping the physical =
location of the UCA. So, the question would be whether the negative =
camber gained in drop would offset the loss of ability to shim, I guess. =
But, yeah, the camber curve should =
improve.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'><o:=
p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>Won=
der if anyone has done it?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'><o:=
p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>Mik=
e<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'><br=
><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: GARY WINBLAD &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<b=
r>To: Michael Wood &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt;; <a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a> &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt;; <a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a> &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br>Se=
nt: Fri, Oct 1, 2021 9:23 am<br>Subject: Re: [Tigers] Front =
10/01/2021 11:54 AM Michael Wood &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote: =
e <br><br><br>-----Original Message----- <br>From: GARY WINBLAD &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt; =
<br>To: Lance Beauchamp &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt;; Tiger =
List &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt; =
<br>Sent: Fri, Oct 1, 2021 7:42 am <br>Subject: Re: [Tigers] Front =
10/01/2021 9:36 AM Lance Beauchamp &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote: =
Thu, Sep 30, 2021, 10:13 PM GARY WINBLAD &lt;<a =
target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote: =
<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote =
09/30/2021 9:55 PM Lance Beauchamp &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote: =
____________________________________________ <br><br><a =
target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a> <br><br>Donate: <a =
href=3D"http://www.team.net/donate.html" =
target=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a> <br>Archive: <a =
href=3D"http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers" =
target=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers </a><a =
href=3D"http://autox.team.net/archive" =
target=3D"_blank">http://autox.team.net/archive</a> <br><br>Unsubscribe: =
<a =
target=3D"_blank">http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/mwood24020=
@aol.com</a> =
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From: Tom Witt via Tigers <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 11:10:52 -0700

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On 10/1/2021 10:22 AM, jim via Tigers wrote:

> /"Maybe I shouldn’t have cancelled my “hokanson’ front end order years 
> ago but what would I do with my free time ??  lol!"/

I saw the Hokanson front end at Bud's shop (CAT Meeting) when they were 
first available. Maybe someone can clarify my memory but shortly 
thereafter someone else (Maybe Dale) offered something similar??? I 
believe there was a Tiger email from one of the Hokansan's feeling that 
their design had been copied and they weren't going to make any more. It 
might be in the list archives. I'm not sure if that ever got resolved. 
12 year old+ memory (or the lack of) so please anyone clarify the matter.

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    <p>On 10/1/2021 10:22 AM, jim via Tigers wrote:<br>
    </p>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:[email-masked]"><i><span
          lang="EN-CA">"Maybe I shouldn’t have cancelled my “hokanson’
          front end order years ago but what would I do with my free
          time ??  lol!"</span></i></blockquote>
    <p><span lang="EN-CA">I saw the Hokanson front end at Bud's shop 
        (CAT Meeting) when they were first available. Maybe someone can
        clarify my memory but shortly thereafter someone else (Maybe
        Dale) offered something similar??? I believe there was a Tiger
        email from one of the Hokansan's feeling that their design had
        been copied and they weren't going to make any more. It might be
        in the list archives. I'm not sure if that ever got resolved. 12
        year old+ memory (or the lack of) so please anyone clarify the
        matter.<br>
      </span></p>
    <p><br>
    </p>
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From: GARY WINBLAD <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 15:14:48 -0400 (EDT)

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Dale came out with the second aftermarket suspension.   NOT a copy at all. =
 A knowledgeable friend looked at both, bought Dales.
He's real happy with it, hopped up street car only though...
Gary

>     On 10/01/2021 2:10 PM Tom Witt via Tigers <[email-masked]> wro=
te:
>         > > "Maybe I shouldn=E2=80=99t have cancelled my =E2=80=9Chokanso=
n=E2=80=99 front end order years ago but what would I do with my free time =
??  lol!"
> >=20
> >     >=20
>     I saw the Hokanson front end at Bud's shop  (CAT Meeting) when they w=
ere first available. Maybe someone can clarify my memory but shortly therea=
fter someone else (Maybe Dale) offered something similar??? I believe there=
 was a Tiger email from one of the Hokansan's feeling that their design had=
 been copied and they weren't going to make any more. It might be in the li=
st archives. I'm not sure if that ever got resolved. 12 year old+ memory (o=
r the lack of) so please anyone clarify the matter.
>     Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers http://autox.team.net/a=
rchive
>=20
>     Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/garywinblad=
@comcast.net

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  <meta charset=3D"UTF-8">=20
 </head>
 <body>
  <div>
   Dale came out with the second aftermarket suspension.&nbsp; &nbsp;NOT a =
copy at all.&nbsp; A knowledgeable friend looked at both, bought Dales.
  </div>
  <div class=3D"default-style">
   He's real happy with it, hopped up street car only though...
  </div>
  <div class=3D"default-style">
   Gary
  </div>
  <div class=3D"default-style">
   <br>
  </div>
  <blockquote type=3D"cite">
   <div>
    On 10/01/2021 2:10 PM Tom Witt via Tigers &lt;[email-masked]&gt;=
 wrote:
   </div>
   <div>
    <br>
   </div>
   <div>
    <br>
   </div>
   <p>On 10/1/2021 10:22 AM, jim via Tigers wrote:<br></p>
   <blockquote type=3D"cite">
    <em>"Maybe I shouldn=E2=80=99t have cancelled my =E2=80=9Chokanson=E2=
=80=99 front end order years ago but what would I do with my free time ??&n=
bsp; lol!"</em>
   </blockquote>
   <p>I saw the Hokanson front end at Bud's shop&nbsp; (CAT Meeting) when t=
hey were first available. Maybe someone can clarify my memory but shortly t=
hereafter someone else (Maybe Dale) offered something similar??? I believe =
there was a Tiger email from one of the Hokansan's feeling that their desig=
n had been copied and they weren't going to make any more. It might be in t=
he list archives. I'm not sure if that ever got resolved. 12 year old+ memo=
ry (or the lack of) so please anyone clarify the matter.<br></p>
   <p><br></p>_______________________________________________
   <br>
   <br>[email-masked]
   <br>
   <br>Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
   <br>Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers http://autox.team.net/=
archive
   <br>
   <br>Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/garywinbla=
[email-masked]
   <br>
   <br>
   <br>
  </blockquote>
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From: Tom Hall <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 12:34:43 -0700

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On 10/1/2021 10:22 AM, jim via Tigers wrote:
>
> I’m definitely a layman but like to tweak things !!!
>
> My car has the 1976 suspension tuning added holes to fully relocate 
> the upper A-arms and I’ve kept that setup. Other than minimal shimming 
> for castor the camber will NOT go to zero ( or positive) and I have 
> about 1 degree negative … I have a unique brake setup with 11” Porsche 
> rotors on adapters and Wilwood Dynalite  calipers behind 14” 3 piece 
> wheels. I changed the steering arms to the MGB one when I installed 
> the Mazda power steering. The mounting holes for the MGB arms are 
> parallel  so require a spacer to mount them in stock location. I saw a 
> potential ( because my Wilwood brake mount ) to move the steering arm 
> outboard but that would also require the caliper and rotor to move the 
> same amount. I managed to move it all outboard ¼” and with the slight 
> offset of the MGB arm, it’s almost ½” gain in reality. I bolted the 
> wheels back on and it ‘seemed’ to spin freely so I took it for a drive 
> and heard a slight ‘ticking’ in the wheels. It turned out that both 
> wheels had a couple of stick on wheel weights on the inside and the 
> calipers were just grazing the as they are about 1/8” thick. A couple 
> minutes with the grinder shaved off enough and its never been a 
> problem since!  I did the math back then and can’t remember exactly 
> but it certainly ( on paper ) improved the ackerman
>
> Maybe I shouldn’t have cancelled my “hokanson’ front end order years 
> ago but what would I do with my free time ??  lol!
>
> Jim
>
> B382000446
>
Guy's, It's been a long long time (early 70's) since I wrote that STOA 
Tech Tip on upper A-arm relocation.  I haven't used it years because the 
switch to radial tires pretty much eclipsed the advantage it showed when 
running bias ply tires.  Bill Martin has been developing a  stock based 
front suspension relocation of the disc and rotors outward (to give room 
to bent the steering arms outward) to aid in the reduction of the 
Ackerman problem, but it requires much more sophistication and new 
hardware.  Doane's solution was good on the track but lacking strength 
and durability for street application.

-- 
Tom Hall
ModTiger Engineering LLC
5712 San Luis Court
Pleasanton, CA 94566
(925)462-3876
[email-masked]
http://tigerengineering.net/

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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 10/1/2021 10:22 AM, jim via Tigers
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:[email-masked]">
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        <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA">I’m definitely a layman
            but like to tweak things !!!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA">My car has the 1976
            suspension tuning added holes to fully relocate the upper
            A-arms and I’ve kept that setup. Other than minimal shimming
            for castor the camber will NOT go to zero ( or positive) and
            I have about 1 degree negative … I have a unique brake setup
            with 11” Porsche rotors on adapters and Wilwood Dynalite
             calipers behind 14” 3 piece wheels. I changed the steering
            arms to the MGB one when I installed the Mazda power
            steering. The mounting holes for the MGB arms are parallel
             so require a spacer to mount them in stock location. I saw
            a potential ( because my Wilwood brake mount ) to move the
            steering arm outboard but that would also require the
            caliper and rotor to move the same amount. I managed to move
            it all outboard ¼” and with the slight offset of the MGB
            arm, it’s almost ½” gain in reality. I bolted the wheels
            back on and it ‘seemed’ to spin freely so I took it for a
            drive and heard a slight ‘ticking’ in the wheels. It turned
            out that both wheels had a couple of stick on wheel weights
            on the inside and the calipers were just grazing the as they
            are about 1/8” thick. A couple minutes with the grinder
            shaved off enough and its never been a problem since!  I did
            the math back then and can’t remember exactly but it
            certainly ( on paper ) improved the ackerman<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA">Maybe I shouldn’t have
            cancelled my “hokanson’ front end order years ago but what
            would I do with my free time ??  lol!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA">Jim<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA">B382000446</span><span
            style="font-family:&quot;Segoe UI Symbol&quot;,sans-serif"
            lang="EN-CA"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    Guy's, It's been a long long time (early 70's) since I wrote that
    STOA Tech Tip on upper A-arm relocation.  I haven't used it years
    because the switch to radial tires pretty much eclipsed the
    advantage it showed when running bias ply tires.  Bill Martin has
    been developing a  stock based front suspension relocation of the
    disc and rotors outward (to give room to bent the steering arms
    outward) to aid in the reduction of the Ackerman problem, but it
    requires much more sophistication and new hardware.  Doane's
    solution was good on the track but lacking strength and durability
    for street application.<br>
    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
Tom Hall
ModTiger Engineering LLC
5712 San Luis Court
Pleasanton, CA 94566
(925)462-3876
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://tigerengineering.net/">http://tigerengineering.net/</a> </pre>
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From: Theo Smit via Tigers <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 15:43:53 -0600 (MDT)

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Hi Mike, 

In 2001 or so, I figured out that a crash in the way-past had twisted both upper shock towers (in the same direction) and the previous owner(s) had not corrected it. 
I cut off the upper towers and put in coilover mounts, along with new upper control arm mounts. As part of that operation I lowered the inboard upper control arm mounts an inch. I'm also using the Minx spindles, and that keeps the control arm angles in a reasonable range. 

I reversed the lower fulcrum pins, which shifts the lower control arm forward about a quarter inch, and increases the caster. As part of that, I added bolt-on braces off the rear face of the crossmember so that the rear end of the fulcrum pins are mounted in double shear. 
I'm currently also running a quicker Flaming River rack, and the steering effort (with 205/45-16's) is pretty reasonable. 

I've been pondering re-doing all of this, because what remains of the original crossmember is pretty beat up and had numerous stress cracks that I welded up when I last had it out of the car. 
A few years ago I got a hold of an Alpine crossmember so that I could re-start with something that hopefully had led an easier life. To address the issue of insufficient balljoint spacing and spindle/hub rigidity, I'd start with Wilwood or somebody else's Mustang hubs and spindles. 
But as with many things, I have not taken this past the ideas stage. Critiques and ideas are welcome. 

To the question of "why don't you just buy Dale's"... part of my enjoyment of my Tiger is the making of stuff. Sometimes that means the car sits longer than I'd like but that's life. 

Cheers, 
Theo 

From: "tigers" <[email-masked]> 
To: "Gary" <[email-masked]>, "Lance Beauchamp" <[email-masked]>, "tigers" <[email-masked]> 
Sent: Friday, October 1, 2021 10:37:07 AM 
Subject: Re: [Tigers] Front suspension 

<snip> 

Mike 

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<html><body><div style=3D"font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-s=
ize: 10pt; color: #000000"><div>Hi Mike,</div><div><br data-mce-bogus=3D"1"=
></div><div>In 2001 or so, I figured out that a crash in the way-past had t=
wisted both upper shock towers (in the same direction) and the previous own=
er(s) had not corrected it.</div><div> I cut off the upper towers and put i=
n coilover mounts, along with new upper control arm mounts. As part of that=
 operation I lowered the inboard upper control arm mounts an inch. I'm also=
 using the Minx spindles, and that keeps the control arm angles in a reason=
able range.</div><div><br data-mce-bogus=3D"1"></div><div>I reversed the lo=
wer fulcrum pins, which shifts the lower control arm forward about a quarte=
r inch, and increases the caster. As part of that, I added bolt-on braces o=
ff the rear face of the crossmember so that the rear end of the fulcrum pin=
s are mounted in double shear.</div><div>I'm currently also running a quick=
er Flaming River rack, and the steering effort (with 205/45-16's) is pretty=
 reasonable.&nbsp;</div><div><br data-mce-bogus=3D"1"></div><div>I've been =
pondering re-doing all of this, because what remains of the original crossm=
ember is pretty beat up and had numerous stress cracks that I welded up whe=
n I last had it out of the car.</div><div>A few years ago I got a hold of a=
n Alpine crossmember so that I could re-start with something that hopefully=
 had led an easier life. To address the issue of insufficient balljoint spa=
cing and spindle/hub rigidity, I'd start with Wilwood or somebody else's Mu=
stang hubs and spindles.</div><div>But as with many things, I have not take=
n this past the ideas stage. Critiques and ideas are welcome.</div><div><br=
 data-mce-bogus=3D"1"></div><div>To the question of "why don't you just buy=
 Dale's"... part of my enjoyment of my Tiger is the making of stuff. Someti=
mes that means the car sits longer than I'd like but that's life.</div><div=
><br data-mce-bogus=3D"1"></div><div>Cheers,</div><div>Theo</div><div><br><=
/div><hr id=3D"zwchr" data-marker=3D"__DIVIDER__"><div data-marker=3D"__HEA=
DERS__"><b>From: </b>"tigers" &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br><b>To: </b>"=
Gary" &lt;[email-masked]&gt;, "Lance Beauchamp" &lt;blance598@gmai=
l.com&gt;, "tigers" &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br><b>Sent: </b>Friday, O=
ctober 1, 2021 10:37:07 AM<br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [Tigers] Front suspension=
<br></div><div><br></div><div data-marker=3D"__QUOTED_TEXT__"><div style=3D=
"font-size:10pt;font-family:'arial' , 'helvetica' , sans-serif;color:black"=
><div style=3D"font-family:'arial' , 'helvetica' , sans-serif;font-size:10p=
t;color:black">&lt;snip&gt;</div><div style=3D"font-family:'arial' , 'helve=
tica' , sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:black">Wonder if anyone has done it=
?</div><div style=3D"font-family:'arial' , 'helvetica' , sans-serif;font-si=
ze:10pt;color:black"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:'arial' , 'helveti=
ca' , sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:black">Mike</div></div><br></div></di=
v></body></html>
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[email-masked]

--===============0063071794330892787==--

---

From: Michael Wood via Tigers <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2021 00:30:16 +0000 (UTC)

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Love it! I have so much respect for you guys (like my mentor, Tom) who can =
take ideas and shape them in metal.=C2=A0
What I'd really like to see is someone build a tubular, double A-arm bolt i=
n solution. I can do the math, but I sure as hell can't do the heavy liftin=
g lol

-----Original Message-----
From: Theo Smit <[email-masked]>
To: Michael Wood <[email-masked]>
Cc: Gary <[email-masked]>; Lance Beauchamp <[email-masked]>; =
tigers <[email-masked]>
Sent: Fri, Oct 1, 2021 2:43 pm
Subject: Re: [Tigers] Front suspension

Hi Mike,
In 2001 or so, I figured out that a crash in the way-past had twisted both =
upper shock towers (in the same direction) and the previous owner(s) had no=
t corrected it. I cut off the upper towers and put in coilover mounts, alon=
g with new upper control arm mounts. As part of that operation I lowered th=
e inboard upper control arm mounts an inch. I'm also using the Minx spindle=
s, and that keeps the control arm angles in a reasonable range.
I reversed the lower fulcrum pins, which shifts the lower control arm forwa=
rd about a quarter inch, and increases the caster. As part of that, I added=
 bolt-on braces off the rear face of the crossmember so that the rear end o=
f the fulcrum pins are mounted in double shear.I'm currently also running a=
 quicker Flaming River rack, and the steering effort (with 205/45-16's) is =
pretty reasonable.=C2=A0
I've been pondering re-doing all of this, because what remains of the origi=
nal crossmember is pretty beat up and had numerous stress cracks that I wel=
ded up when I last had it out of the car.A few years ago I got a hold of an=
 Alpine crossmember so that I could re-start with something that hopefully =
had led an easier life. To address the issue of insufficient balljoint spac=
ing and spindle/hub rigidity, I'd start with Wilwood or somebody else's Mus=
tang hubs and spindles.But as with many things, I have not taken this past =
the ideas stage. Critiques and ideas are welcome.
To the question of "why don't you just buy Dale's"... part of my enjoyment =
of my Tiger is the making of stuff. Sometimes that means the car sits longe=
r than I'd like but that's life.
Cheers,Theo
From: "tigers" <[email-masked]>
To: "Gary" <[email-masked]>, "Lance Beauchamp" <[email-masked]=
m>, "tigers" <[email-masked]>
Sent: Friday, October 1, 2021 10:37:07 AM
Subject: Re: [Tigers] Front suspension

<snip>Wonder if anyone has done it?
Mike

------=_Part_693847_1612190674.1633134616821
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<div style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;color:b=
lack;"><div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;=
color:black;">Love it! I have so much respect for you guys (like my mentor,=
 Tom) who can take ideas and shape them in metal.&nbsp;</div><div style=3D"=
font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:black;"><br></d=
iv><div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;colo=
r:black;">What I'd really like to see is someone build a tubular, double A-=
arm bolt in solution. I can do the math, but I sure as hell can't do the he=
avy lifting lol<br><br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: Theo Smit &l=
t;[email-masked]&gt;<br>To: Michael Wood &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>Cc: G=
ary &lt;[email-masked]&gt;; Lance Beauchamp &lt;[email-masked]=
m&gt;; tigers &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>Sent: Fri, Oct 1, 2021 2:43 =
pm<br>Subject: Re: [Tigers] Front suspension<br><br></div><div id=3D"yiv537=
3424094"><div><div style=3D"font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-s=
ize:10pt;color:#000000;"><div>Hi Mike,</div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><=
div>In 2001 or so, I figured out that a crash in the way-past had twisted b=
oth upper shock towers (in the same direction) and the previous owner(s) ha=
d not corrected it.</div><div> I cut off the upper towers and put in coilov=
er mounts, along with new upper control arm mounts. As part of that operati=
on I lowered the inboard upper control arm mounts an inch. I'm also using t=
he Minx spindles, and that keeps the control arm angles in a reasonable ran=
ge.</div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>I reversed the lower fulcrum pi=
ns, which shifts the lower control arm forward about a quarter inch, and in=
creases the caster. As part of that, I added bolt-on braces off the rear fa=
ce of the crossmember so that the rear end of the fulcrum pins are mounted =
in double shear.</div><div>I'm currently also running a quicker Flaming Riv=
er rack, and the steering effort (with 205/45-16's) is pretty reasonable.&n=
bsp;</div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>I've been pondering re-doing a=
ll of this, because what remains of the original crossmember is pretty beat=
 up and had numerous stress cracks that I welded up when I last had it out =
of the car.</div><div>A few years ago I got a hold of an Alpine crossmember=
 so that I could re-start with something that hopefully had led an easier l=
ife. To address the issue of insufficient balljoint spacing and spindle/hub=
 rigidity, I'd start with Wilwood or somebody else's Mustang hubs and spind=
les.</div><div>But as with many things, I have not taken this past the idea=
s stage. Critiques and ideas are welcome.</div><div><br clear=3D"none"></di=
v><div>To the question of "why don't you just buy Dale's"... part of my enj=
oyment of my Tiger is the making of stuff. Sometimes that means the car sit=
s longer than I'd like but that's life.</div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div>=
<div>Cheers,</div><div>Theo</div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><hr id=3D"yi=
v5373424094zwchr"><div><b>From: </b>"tigers" &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<=
br clear=3D"none"><b>To: </b>"Gary" &lt;[email-masked]&gt;, "Lance=
 Beauchamp" &lt;[email-masked]&gt;, "tigers" &lt;[email-masked]=
&gt;<div class=3D"yiv5373424094yqt7580696325" id=3D"yiv5373424094yqtfd00025=
"><br clear=3D"none"><b>Sent: </b>Friday, October 1, 2021 10:37:07 AM<br cl=
ear=3D"none"><b>Subject: </b>Re: [Tigers] Front suspension<br clear=3D"none=
"></div></div><div class=3D"yiv5373424094yqt7580696325" id=3D"yiv5373424094=
yqtfd70888"><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div><div style=3D"font-size:10pt=
;font-family:'arial' , 'helvetica' , sans-serif;color:black;"><div style=3D=
"font-family:'arial' , 'helvetica' , sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:black;=
">&lt;snip&gt;</div><div style=3D"font-family:'arial' , 'helvetica' , sans-=
serif;font-size:10pt;color:black;">Wonder if anyone has done it?</div><div =
style=3D"font-family:'arial' , 'helvetica' , sans-serif;font-size:10pt;colo=
r:black;"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div style=3D"font-family:'arial' , 'hel=
vetica' , sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:black;">Mike</div></div><br clear=
=3D"none"></div></div></div></div></div></div>
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[email-masked]

--===============5097878323819025570==--

---

From: Michael Wood via Tigers <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2021 00:31:41 +0000 (UTC)

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Buck, thanks for chiming in. I totally forgot to mention the bump steer iss=
ue, that is a great story re: Mike Jones.=C2=A0Take careMike

-----Original Message-----
From: Buck Trippel <[email-masked]>
To: 'Michael Wood' <[email-masked]>; [email-masked]; blance598=
@gmail.com
Cc: [email-masked]
Sent: Fri, Oct 1, 2021 11:00 am
Subject: RE: [Tigers] Front suspension

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I have a lot on my plate right now so this will have to be brief. I=E2=80=
=99m replying to Mike=E2=80=99s earlier post and not Jim=E2=80=99s mods.

 =C2=A0

In Mike Jones=E2=80=99 talk a few weeks ago at SUNI he described some of th=
e challenges that he, Kevin Beattie and the Rootes engineers encountered wh=
en they put the Tiger into production. He mentioned that they knew that the=
 rack position made anti-Ackerman an inevitable problem, but they were unde=
r a deadline to put the car into immediate production. They did design a MK=
2 version would have larger 14=E2=80=9Dwheels which could accommodate longe=
r steering arms to lessen the problem as well as the larger 3-puck Girling =
brake package used on the Cobras and Austin Martins on all corners. But by =
the time the Mk2 was produced these were eliminated and only Mike=E2=80=99s=
 relocation of the Panhard bar mount survived, chassis-wise.

 =C2=A0

So we all know the Tiger=E2=80=99s Ackerman is terrible. It also suffers fr=
om a complete lack of camber gain. And its bump steer is horrendous. (We=E2=
=80=99ve carefully measured all of them.) One discovery that prompted a chu=
ckle was that when the Tiger takes a set in a hard turn the bump steer is s=
o bad it actually corrects some of the Ackerman problems. I pointed this ou=
t to Mike and expected him to identify an engineer who came up with this en=
tirely creative band-aid but instead he said he was sure it was completely =
unintentional. That immediately let the air out of my balloon.

 =C2=A0

As far as aftermarket fixes, Dale=E2=80=99s numbers look great for ackerman=
, camber gain and bump steer. I=E2=80=99ve driven Tigers with Hokansen=E2=
=80=99s mod and they drive nice but I never have seen his numbers.

 =C2=A0

As far as mods to the stock suspension, the main problem for me is Camber g=
ain. When the chassis rolls it rotates the inside of the tire patches off t=
he pavement. Any real fix needs the ball joints to be an inch or two furthe=
r apart. The Tiger spindle weighs half what a Pinto=E2=80=99s does. It=E2=
=80=99s flimsy in comparison. We have seen enough flexing on the race track=
 that I have been scared to space the ball joints further apart. We built a=
 spaced a setup and did a one-day test with it at Willow and it worked but =
it now sits on the shelf due to my reluctance to take on more risk.=C2=A0 M=
G arms take a little of the problem away as does milling off the =E2=80=9Cf=
eet=E2=80=9D on the rack but the aftermarket solution of putting the rack u=
nder the motor addresses all those problems. I think Dale is still selling =
his replacement crossmember front suspension but I suspect they will now co=
st you more than $5K.

 =C2=A0

As to the electric power steering from Europe, I=E2=80=99ve installed and t=
ested it. It=E2=80=99s fine around town and on twisty roads however I can=
=E2=80=99t get enough caster into a Tiger to make it reasonable to use on t=
he open road. It has too much friction for our cars to overcome it and trac=
k straight on the highway. You have correct constantly. For an hour or two =
that=E2=80=99s OK. It=E2=80=99s so much work that an 8 or 10 hour cross cou=
ntry day became impossible for me. So it now also sets on a shelf in the ga=
rage. I=E2=80=99m expanding the garage.

=20

Buck Trippel=20

 =C2=A0

 =C2=A0

 =C2=A0

 =C2=A0

 =C2=A0

 =C2=A0

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: GARY WINBLAD <[email-masked]>
To: Michael Wood <[email-masked]>; [email-masked] <blance598@gmail=

Mike,=20

Gary=20

 =C2=A0

 =C2=A0

 =C2=A0

Mike=20

Lance,=20

Gary=20

 =C2=A0

 =C2=A0

 =C2=A0

 =C2=A0

HI Lance,=20

 =C2=A0

off the corner...=20

 =C2=A0

Gary W.=20

 =C2=A0

 =C2=A0

 =C2=A0

[email-masked]=20

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<div style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;color:b=
lack;"><div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;=
color:black;">Buck, thanks for chiming in. I totally forgot to mention the =
bump steer issue, that is a great story re: Mike Jones.&nbsp;</div><div sty=
le=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:black;">T=
ake care</div><div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz=
e:10pt;color:black;">Mike<br><br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: Bu=
ck Trippel &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>To: 'Michael Wood' &lt;mwood2=
[email-masked]&gt;; [email-masked]; [email-masked]<br>Cc: tiger=
[email-masked]<br>Sent: Fri, Oct 1, 2021 11:00 am<br>Subject: RE: [Tigers=
] Front suspension<br><br></div><div id=3D"yiv7146861405"><style><!--
#yiv7146861405 =20
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#yiv7146861405 =20
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#yiv7146861405 a:link, #yiv7146861405 span.yiv7146861405MsoHyperlink
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=09{}
--></style><div><div class=3D"yiv7146861405WordSection1"><p class=3D"yiv714=
6861405MsoNormal">I have a lot on my plate right now so this will have to b=
e brief. I=E2=80=99m replying to Mike=E2=80=99s earlier post and not Jim=E2=
=80=99s mods.</p><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"> &nbsp;</p><p class=3D=
"yiv7146861405MsoNormal">In Mike Jones=E2=80=99 talk a few weeks ago at SUN=
I he described some of the challenges that he, Kevin Beattie and the Rootes=
 engineers encountered when they put the Tiger into production. He mentione=
d that they knew that the rack position made anti-Ackerman an inevitable pr=
oblem, but they were under a deadline to put the car into immediate product=
ion. They did design a MK2 version would have larger 14=E2=80=9Dwheels whic=
h could accommodate longer steering arms to lessen the problem as well as t=
he larger 3-puck Girling brake package used on the Cobras and Austin Martin=
s on all corners. But by the time the Mk2 was produced these were eliminate=
d and only Mike=E2=80=99s relocation of the Panhard bar mount survived, cha=
ssis-wise.</p><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"> &nbsp;</p><p class=3D"yi=
v7146861405MsoNormal">So we all know the Tiger=E2=80=99s Ackerman is terrib=
le. It also suffers from a complete lack of camber gain. And its bump steer=
 is horrendous. (We=E2=80=99ve carefully measured all of them.) One discove=
ry that prompted a chuckle was that when the Tiger takes a set in a hard tu=
rn the bump steer is so bad it actually corrects some of the Ackerman probl=
ems. I pointed this out to Mike and expected him to identify an engineer wh=
o came up with this entirely creative band-aid but instead he said he was s=
ure it was completely unintentional. That immediately let the air out of my=
 balloon.</p><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"> &nbsp;</p><p class=3D"yiv=
7146861405MsoNormal">As far as aftermarket fixes, Dale=E2=80=99s numbers lo=
ok great for ackerman, camber gain and bump steer. I=E2=80=99ve driven Tige=
rs with Hokansen=E2=80=99s mod and they drive nice but I never have seen hi=
s numbers.</p><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"> &nbsp;</p><p class=3D"yi=
v7146861405MsoNormal">As far as mods to the stock suspension, the main prob=
lem for me is Camber gain. When the chassis rolls it rotates the inside of =
the tire patches off the pavement. Any real fix needs the ball joints to be=
 an inch or two further apart. The Tiger spindle weighs half what a Pinto=
=E2=80=99s does. It=E2=80=99s flimsy in comparison. We have seen enough fle=
xing on the race track that I have been scared to space the ball joints fur=
ther apart. We built a spaced a setup and did a one-day test with it at Wil=
low and it worked but it now sits on the shelf due to my reluctance to take=
 on more risk.&nbsp; MG arms take a little of the problem away as does mill=
ing off the =E2=80=9Cfeet=E2=80=9D on the rack but the aftermarket solution=
 of putting the rack under the motor addresses all those problems. I think =
Dale is still selling his replacement crossmember front suspension but I su=
spect they will now cost you more than $5K.</p><p class=3D"yiv7146861405Mso=
Normal"> &nbsp;</p><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal">As to the electric p=
ower steering from Europe, I=E2=80=99ve installed and tested it. It=E2=80=
=99s fine around town and on twisty roads however I can=E2=80=99t get enoug=
h caster into a Tiger to make it reasonable to use on the open road. It has=
 too much friction for our cars to overcome it and track straight on the hi=
ghway. You have correct constantly. For an hour or two that=E2=80=99s OK. I=
t=E2=80=99s so much work that an 8 or 10 hour cross country day became impo=
ssible for me. So it now also sets on a shelf in the garage. I=E2=80=99m ex=
panding the garage.</p><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"> </p><p class=3D=
"yiv7146861405MsoNormal">Buck Trippel </p><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNorma=
l"> &nbsp;</p><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"> &nbsp;</p><div class=3D"=
yiv7146861405yqt4357082656" id=3D"yiv7146861405yqt41781"><div style=3D"bord=
er:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;"><p class=
=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Tigers &lt;[email-masked]=
am.net&gt; <b>On Behalf Of </b>Michael Wood via Tigers<br clear=3D"none"><b=
>Sent:</b> Friday, October 1, 2021 9:37 AM<br clear=3D"none"><b>To:</b> gar=
[email-masked]; [email-masked]; [email-masked]<br clear=
=3D"none"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Tigers] Front suspension</p></div><p class=
=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"> &nbsp;</p><div><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405M=
soNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:blac=
k;">I'm far from expert...maybe a layman open to experimenting lol&nbsp;</s=
pan></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;"> &nbsp;</span></p></div><d=
iv><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font=
-family:sans-serif;color:black;">I think a lot of guys building Mustangs, C=
amaros etc still do the Shelby drop (relocating the upper control arm downw=
ards). But, I don't know how it would work on a Tiger, as we run into contr=
ol arm clearance to unibody issues pretty quickly at the fastener to the re=
ar (if you follow what I'm saying) when shimming for negative camber. That =
clearance becomes even less when you start looking at dropping the physical=
 location of the UCA. So, the question would be whether the negative camber=
 gained in drop would offset the loss of ability to shim, I guess. But, yea=
h, the camber curve should improve.&nbsp;</span></p></div><div><p class=3D"=
yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-se=
rif;color:black;"> &nbsp;</span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405Mso=
Normal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;=
">Wonder if anyone has done it?</span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861=
405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:=
black;"> &nbsp;</span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;">Mike</sp=
an></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-botto=
m:12.0pt;"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:bla=
ck;"><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">-----Original Message-----<br cl=
ear=3D"none">From: GARY WINBLAD &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer"=
 shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank=
" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<b=
r clear=3D"none">To: Michael Wood &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferre=
r" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank" h=
ref=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt;; <a rel=3D"nof=
ollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:blance598@gmail=
.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">blance598@gmail=
.com</a> &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=
=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:blance598@=
gmail.com">[email-masked]</a>&gt;; <a rel=3D"nofollow noopener norefer=
rer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_bla=
nk" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a> &lt;<a =
rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:tiger=
[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">t=
[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br clear=3D"none">Sent: Fri, Oct 1, 2021 9:23 =
am<br clear=3D"none">Subject: Re: [Tigers] Front suspension</span></p></div=
><div id=3D"yiv7146861405"><div><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;">Mike, </=
span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;">Thanks for your expert an=
alysis! </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span sty=
le=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;">Yes, I never di=
d find what Ackerman is best either..&nbsp; I heard Doane speak and he said=
 the reverse Ackerman is actually an advantage when you are </span></p></di=
v><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;=
font-family:sans-serif;color:black;">countersteering (what I think he meant=
).&nbsp; I wrote a program to figure out how it works on the Tiger.&nbsp; T=
urns out Ackerman is not really that bad until </span></p></div><div><p cla=
ss=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:s=
ans-serif;color:black;">you get to pretty extreme steering angles, so on a =
big track it isn't really that bad.&nbsp; And with initial toe-out dialed i=
n it might not be that bad on a really </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yi=
v7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-seri=
f;color:black;">tight course.&nbsp; And because of the fulcrum pin issue, I=
 NEVER go full lock anymore, even parking. </span></p></div><div><p class=
=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:san=
s-serif;color:black;">Yeah camber... why did the lowered a-arm trick seem t=
o work back in the day but isn't used anymore?&nbsp; The GT-350s I have loo=
ked at still have it. </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNor=
mal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;">I=
 know it was bad for braking but so is initial negative camber? </span></p>=
</div><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.=
0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;">Heavy steering, why I left my big =
stock steering wheel. </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNor=
mal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;">G=
ary </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;"> &nbsp;</span></p=
></div><div id=3D"yiv7146861405yqt43507"><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.=
0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt;"><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;">On 10/01/2021 =
11:54 AM Michael Wood &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"=
rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailt=
o:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote: </span></p></div><d=
iv><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font=
-family:sans-serif;color:black;"> &nbsp;</span></p></div><div><p class=3D"y=
iv7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-ser=
if;color:black;"> &nbsp;</span></p></div><div><div><p class=3D"yiv714686140=
5MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:bl=
ack;">Gary, I think you nailed it, reverse Ackermann leads to some funky sl=
ip angles and strangely heavy steering, particularly felt at low speeds...t=
he front tires are literally fighting each other. The fact we all typically=
 add wider wheels makes the steering even heavier (both contact patch to mo=
ve around and scrub radius). Finally, maxing out caster with wedges (which =
I do) makes it even worse!&nbsp; </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv71468=
61405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;colo=
r:black;">The longer MG steering arms help, I've found on cars I've driven =
so equipped, but I haven't bothered to do on my car. Toe out changes the sl=
ip angle and also helps get the car to turn in, but I only go to toe out (1=
/4") when autocrossing, as toe out also is a great way to kill tires. Besid=
es the poor camber curve, Ackerman is another reason why I run as much nega=
tive camber as possible...if the outside wheel isn't technically aligned to=
 the turn radius correctly, at least I can maximize the unaligned contact p=
atch in roll lol. Funny thing, even the real experts I've read can't seem t=
o agree on "Ackermann", because there are so many other variables. </span><=
/p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;">I don't know, outside of a cust=
om solution like Dale's or Hokanson's front ends, of a real fix. I've just =
learned to live with heavy steering, but if it really is a problem, going t=
o stock width wheels and smaller section width tires really makes a differe=
nce. The electric power steering solution has gotten to be a pretty easy&nb=
sp;deal, but that obviously does nothing to address the underlying geometry=
 issues. </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal" style=3D=
"margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-se=
rif;color:black;">Mike <br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"n=
one">-----Original Message----- <br clear=3D"none">From: GARY WINBLAD &lt;<=
a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:gar=
[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:garywinblad@comcast.=
net">[email-masked]</a>&gt; <br clear=3D"none">To: Lance Beauchamp=
 &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mail=
to:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]=
m">[email-masked]</a>&gt;; Tiger List &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener =
noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=
=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>=
&gt; <br clear=3D"none">Sent: Fri, Oct 1, 2021 7:42 am <br clear=3D"none">S=
ubject: Re: [Tigers] Front suspension </span></p></div><div id=3D"yiv714686=
1405"><div><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;">Lance, </span></p></div><div>=
<p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:sans-serif;color:black;">&nbsp;There are a couple more expensive solut=
ions that might be still available. </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv71=
46861405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;c=
olor:black;">Dale did design and make an entire front crossmember/suspensio=
n.&nbsp; It fixed the geometry but was about $5K </span></p></div><div><p c=
lass=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family=
:sans-serif;color:black;">last I heard, and he might have stopped making th=
em. </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;">People (mostly in=
 EU) have put in electric power steering.&nbsp; It mounts up under the dash=
 so it all looks stock, </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoN=
ormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;"=
>would be great in a parking lot or tight course.&nbsp; Others have put in =
conventional hydraulic power steering. </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yi=
v7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-seri=
f;color:black;">Shelby had his guys put in a Miata power rack in his wife's=
 Tiger for instance. </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNorm=
al"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;">Ga=
ry </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=3D=
"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;"> &nbsp;</span></p></=
div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt;"><div><p cla=
ss=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:s=
ans-serif;color:black;">On 10/01/2021 9:36 AM Lance Beauchamp &lt;<a rel=3D=
"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:blance598@g=
mail.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">blance598@g=
mail.com</a>&gt; wrote: </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoN=
ormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;"=
> &nbsp;</span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span sty=
le=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;"> &nbsp;</span><=
/p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;">So it is what it is, end of sto=
ry, thank very much for a really good explanation,&nbsp; still love the car=
. Beau&nbsp; </span></p></div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span sty=
le=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;"> &nbsp;</span><=
/p><div><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:1=
0.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;">On Thu, Sep 30, 2021, 10:13 PM G=
ARY WINBLAD &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymai=
lto=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:gar=
[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote: </span></p></d=
iv><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt;"><div><div><p=
 class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fami=
ly:sans-serif;color:black;">HI Lance, </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv=
7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif=
;color:black;">Steering geometry is a real problem.&nbsp; Shelby throwing t=
he rack way out in front of the engine was a quick solution. </span></p></d=
iv><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt=
;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;">Rootes didn't want to change a Shelby=
 design... so we suffer today.&nbsp; Doane knew it was a problem but he tho=
ught </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;">Rootes would buil=
d a new crossmember. </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNorm=
al"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;">Th=
e problem is when you go around a corner, the inside wheel needs to run a s=
maller radius turn than the outside. </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv7=
146861405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;=
color:black;">Toe in on turns or Ackerman geometry is what it is called.&nb=
sp; &nbsp;The Tiger has reverse Ackerman, the inner wheel turns </span></p>=
</div><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.=
0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;">a larger radius!&nbsp; When I used=
 to push my Tiger out to my slightly downhill driveway it was easier to tur=
n the wheel </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;">full lock t=
han to reach down and pull the parking brake... what a great design Shelby!=
 </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;">On a tight autocross c=
ourse or a parking lot this is really less than ideal...&nbsp; MIKE analysi=
s?? </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;">On a big course i=
t might not make such a difference though Jim Adams said he had to "toss th=
e Tiger like a sprint </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNor=
mal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;">c=
ar"&nbsp; (keeping it jumping and sliding rather than be smooth.. I hear th=
at as...). </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;"> &nbsp;</spa=
n></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;">Longer MGB steering arms and=
 initial toe-out is the small solution Dale has... </span></p></div><div><p=
 class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fami=
ly:sans-serif;color:black;">You may notice, its hard to turn the wheel at s=
low speeds, especially with big sticky tires. </span></p></div><div><p clas=
s=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sa=
ns-serif;color:black;">But once you go into a fairly tight turn, it becomes=
 easier as both tires lose contact.. and the Tiger goes straight </span></p=
></div><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10=
.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;">off the corner... </span></p></di=
v><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;=
font-family:sans-serif;color:black;"> &nbsp;</span></p></div><div><p class=
=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:san=
s-serif;color:black;">Mike, do I have it anywhere correct? </span></p></div=
><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;f=
ont-family:sans-serif;color:black;">Gary W. </span></p></div><div><p class=
=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:san=
s-serif;color:black;"> &nbsp;</span></p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-t=
op:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt;"><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;">On 09/30/=
2021 9:55 PM Lance Beauchamp &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" sh=
ape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank" href=
=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote: </span><=
/p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;"> &nbsp;</span></p></div><div><p=
 class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fami=
ly:sans-serif;color:black;"> &nbsp;</span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv714=
6861405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;co=
lor:black;">You say you spend alot of time on suspension Gary, can you tell=
 me how to make the Tiger easier to turn at lower speeds, like 15 mph or un=
der. I always&nbsp; blame the steering&nbsp; geometry,&nbsp; is it all that=
?&nbsp; Beau&nbsp; </span></p></div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div><=
/blockquote></div></div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal" style=3D"margin=
-bottom:12.0pt;"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;col=
or:black;">_______________________________________________ <br clear=3D"non=
e"><br clear=3D"none"><a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect=
" ymailto=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto=
:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a> <br clear=3D"none"><br cl=
ear=3D"none">Donate: <a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect"=
 target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://www.team.net/donate.html">http://www.team=
.net/donate.html</a> <br clear=3D"none">Archive: <a rel=3D"nofollow noopene=
r noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://www.team.net/=
pipermail/tigers">http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers </a><a rel=3D"nofoll=
ow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://aut=
ox.team.net/archive">http://autox.team.net/archive</a> <br clear=3D"none"><=
br clear=3D"none">Unsubscribe: <a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shap=
e=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/=
tigers/[email-masked]">http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/mwo=
[email-masked]</a> <br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"></span></p></div>=
</blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
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[email-masked]

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---

From: Theo Smit via Tigers <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 21:33:00 -0600

--===============7409489490819770323==
	boundary="Apple-Mail=_D27C1D9B-0FF7-488B-9DA3-97006F0B2D9E"

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	charset=utf-8

Hi MIke,
Respect goes both ways. You and many others have much more autocross and =
racing experience than I=E2=80=99ll ever accumulate and you all sharing =
your insights helps me figure out what it is I should be trying to do.

Thanks,
Theo

> On Oct 1, 2021, at 6:30 PM, Michael Wood <[email-masked]> wrote:
>=20
> Love it! I have so much respect for you guys (like my mentor, Tom) who =
can take ideas and shape them in metal.=20
>=20
> What I'd really like to see is someone build a tubular, double A-arm =
bolt in solution. I can do the math, but I sure as hell can't do the =
heavy lifting lol
> Cc: Gary <[email-masked]>; Lance Beauchamp =
<[email-masked]>; tigers <[email-masked]>
> In 2001 or so, I figured out that a crash in the way-past had twisted =
both upper shock towers (in the same direction) and the previous =
owner(s) had not corrected it.
> I cut off the upper towers and put in coilover mounts, along with new =
upper control arm mounts. As part of that operation I lowered the =
inboard upper control arm mounts an inch. I'm also using the Minx =
spindles, and that keeps the control arm angles in a reasonable range.
>=20
> I reversed the lower fulcrum pins, which shifts the lower control arm =
forward about a quarter inch, and increases the caster. As part of that, =
I added bolt-on braces off the rear face of the crossmember so that the =
rear end of the fulcrum pins are mounted in double shear.
> I'm currently also running a quicker Flaming River rack, and the =
steering effort (with 205/45-16's) is pretty reasonable.=20
>=20
> I've been pondering re-doing all of this, because what remains of the =
original crossmember is pretty beat up and had numerous stress cracks =
that I welded up when I last had it out of the car.
> A few years ago I got a hold of an Alpine crossmember so that I could =
re-start with something that hopefully had led an easier life. To =
address the issue of insufficient balljoint spacing and spindle/hub =
rigidity, I'd start with Wilwood or somebody else's Mustang hubs and =
spindles.
> But as with many things, I have not taken this past the ideas stage. =
Critiques and ideas are welcome.
>=20
> To the question of "why don't you just buy Dale's"... part of my =
enjoyment of my Tiger is the making of stuff. Sometimes that means the =
car sits longer than I'd like but that's life.
> To: "Gary" <[email-masked]>, "Lance Beauchamp" =
<[email-masked]>, "tigers" <[email-masked]>
> Wonder if anyone has done it?

--Apple-Mail=_D27C1D9B-0FF7-488B-9DA3-97006F0B2D9E
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">Hi =
MIke,<div class=3D"">Respect goes both ways. You and many others have =
much more autocross and racing experience than I=E2=80=99ll ever =
accumulate and you all sharing your insights helps me figure out what it =
is I should be trying to do.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Thanks,</div><div class=3D"">Theo<br class=3D""><div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Oct =
1, 2021, at 6:30 PM, Michael Wood &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" class=3D"">[email-masked]</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; =
font-size: 10pt;" class=3D"">Love it! I have so much respect for you =
guys (like my mentor, Tom) who can take ideas and shape them in =
metal.&nbsp;</div><div style=3D"font-family: arial, helvetica, =
sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
style=3D"font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;" =
class=3D"">What I'd really like to see is someone build a tubular, =
double A-arm bolt in solution. I can do the math, but I sure as hell =
can't do the heavy lifting lol<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">-----Original Message-----<br class=3D"">From: Theo Smit =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" class=3D"">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D"">To: Michael Wood &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
class=3D"">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">Cc: Gary &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
class=3D"">[email-masked]</a>&gt;; Lance Beauchamp &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
class=3D"">[email-masked]</a>&gt;; tigers &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
class=3D"">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">Sent: Fri, Oct 1, =
2021 2:43 pm<br class=3D"">Subject: Re: [Tigers] Front suspension<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div id=3D"yiv5373424094" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; =
font-size: 10pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D"">Hi Mike,</div><div =
class=3D""><br clear=3D"none" class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">In 2001 =
or so, I figured out that a crash in the way-past had twisted both upper =
shock towers (in the same direction) and the previous owner(s) had not =
corrected it.</div><div class=3D""> I cut off the upper towers and put =
in coilover mounts, along with new upper control arm mounts. As part of =
that operation I lowered the inboard upper control arm mounts an inch. =
I'm also using the Minx spindles, and that keeps the control arm angles =
in a reasonable range.</div><div class=3D""><br clear=3D"none" =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I reversed the lower fulcrum pins, =
which shifts the lower control arm forward about a quarter inch, and =
increases the caster. As part of that, I added bolt-on braces off the =
rear face of the crossmember so that the rear end of the fulcrum pins =
are mounted in double shear.</div><div class=3D"">I'm currently also =
running a quicker Flaming River rack, and the steering effort (with =
205/45-16's) is pretty reasonable.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br =
clear=3D"none" class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I've been pondering =
re-doing all of this, because what remains of the original crossmember =
is pretty beat up and had numerous stress cracks that I welded up when I =
last had it out of the car.</div><div class=3D"">A few years ago I got a =
hold of an Alpine crossmember so that I could re-start with something =
that hopefully had led an easier life. To address the issue of =
insufficient balljoint spacing and spindle/hub rigidity, I'd start with =
Wilwood or somebody else's Mustang hubs and spindles.</div><div =
class=3D"">But as with many things, I have not taken this past the ideas =
stage. Critiques and ideas are welcome.</div><div class=3D""><br =
clear=3D"none" class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">To the question of "why =
don't you just buy Dale's"... part of my enjoyment of my Tiger is the =
making of stuff. Sometimes that means the car sits longer than I'd like =
but that's life.</div><div class=3D""><br clear=3D"none" =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Cheers,</div><div =
class=3D"">Theo</div><div class=3D""><br clear=3D"none" =
class=3D""></div><hr id=3D"yiv5373424094zwchr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">From: </b>"tigers" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
class=3D"">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br clear=3D"none" class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">To: </b>"Gary" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
class=3D"">[email-masked]</a>&gt;, "Lance Beauchamp" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
class=3D"">[email-masked]</a>&gt;, "tigers" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
class=3D"">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<div =
class=3D"yiv5373424094yqt7580696325" id=3D"yiv5373424094yqtfd00025"><br =
clear=3D"none" class=3D""><b class=3D"">Sent: </b>Friday, October 1, =
2021 10:37:07 AM<br clear=3D"none" class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject: =
</b>Re: [Tigers] Front suspension<br clear=3D"none" =
class=3D""></div></div><div class=3D"yiv5373424094yqt7580696325" =
id=3D"yiv5373424094yqtfd70888"><div class=3D""><br clear=3D"none" =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;" =
class=3D"">&lt;snip&gt;</div><div style=3D"font-family: arial, =
helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;" class=3D"">Wonder if anyone has =
done it?</div><div style=3D"font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; =
font-size: 10pt;" class=3D""><br clear=3D"none" class=3D""></div><div =
style=3D"font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;" =
class=3D"">Mike</div></div><br clear=3D"none" =
class=3D""></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><b=
r class=3D""></div></div></body></html>=

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[email-masked]

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