Subject: Re: [Tigers] Tigers Digest, Vol 8, Issue 126 (Panhard Rod)

From: Tod Brown via Tigers <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2016 11:31:01 -0400

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One of our members of TE/AE has submitted an article about modifications 
to the Panhard Rod
mounting that will be published in next month's /Rootes Review. 
/Interested readers might want
to take a look at it. The author is John Logan, Sr. and his email is 
[email-masked], if you
would like to correspond with him.

Cheers,

Tod Brown
Editor, Rootes Review

On 6/18/2016 10:53 PM, [email-masked] wrote:
> Send Tigers mailing list submissions to
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> Today's Topics:
>
>     1. DW Torque arm with or without Panhard rod? (daniel doornbos)
>     2. Re: Sunbeam Tiger Wiki (Smit, Theo)
>     3. Re: DW Torque arm with or without Panhard rod? (Stephen Waybright)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2016 00:23:45 +0000
> From: daniel doornbos <[email-masked]>
> To: "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>
> Subject: [Tigers] DW Torque arm with or without Panhard rod?
> Message-ID:
> 	<[email-masked]>
> 	
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
>
>
> Who out there has done direct back to back driving comparisions with the panhard rod installed, removed or changing the anchor point from Passenger to Driver side??  If so what were the conclusions?  How did it change for heavy accelration and braking for both straightline and corners?
>
>
> Additional info to go with your observation?
>
> - Parhard rod chaise mount on driver side (MKII stock) or passenger side (MKI config)?
>
> - Lowered Panhard rod mount for better roll center?
>
> - Other suspension mods such as DW torque arm, stiffer rear springs ?
>
> - High HP engine?
>
>
> dan
>
>
> (changing my subscription from my work to private e-mail account)
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>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2016 02:53:14 +0000
> From: "Smit, Theo" <[email-masked]>
> To: J Clark <[email-masked]>, "[email-masked]"
> 	<[email-masked]>
> Subject: Re: [Tigers] Sunbeam Tiger Wiki
> Message-ID: <[email-masked]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>
> Hi Jon,
> The last time that it was attempted to bring the Tiger Wiki page in line with what is commonly accepted as fact by marque experts, the ?editors? who did the earlier work to the page came out, reverted the edits, and let it be known in no uncertain terms that they would not tolerate outsiders besmirching the holy writ of the ?reliable sources? they had established through what they considered to be rigorous process.
>
> The basic problem is that Robson is ?reliable source? simply because he has published a lot of books. Independent research (such as me looking at my Tiger and finding things that do not agree with their writing) is not permitted in Wikipedia because it?s not ?verifiable? by searching other in-print or otherwise published references. Books such as Norm Miller?s, being independently published and having a small total print run, carry little or no weight in Wikipedia-land, regardless of the quality of the underlying research.
>
> If the earlier editors have abandoned wikipedia and it?s now possible to make edits, then that would be fantastic ? but it would still have to be very carefully done so that all parts of the Wiki page have an attribution back to a book that, from the Wiki point of view, passes the ?reliable source? test.
>
> Since I have taken part in this jousting match several times earlier I?d be interested in seeing if progress can be made.
>
> Theo
>
>
>
>
> Date: Saturday, June 18, 2016 at 9:22 AM
> Subject: Re: [Tigers] Sunbeam Tiger Wiki
>
> To Rande Bellman,
> The Wiki-"powers-that-be" have accorded the Sunbeam Tiger entry its much coveted "Featured" status... so it must be accurate!
> Seriously though, seeing how it is not "protected" (even semi), anyone is free to make any and all improvements as they see fit.
> Ask me how I know. I.e., as "pragmath", I have made a change or two myself.
>
>                                                                                    Regards,
>                                                                                      Jon
> P.S. Btw, one thing it's sorely lacking are images of Tigers in stock, unadorned form. There is very little to choose from in in "Wikimedia".
> Please, by all means, have at it.
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email and any attachments are for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and contain information that may be Garmin confidential and/or Garmin legally privileged. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender by reply email and delete the message. Any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of this communication (including attachments) by someone other than the intended recipient is prohibited. Thank you.
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2016 02:50:15 +0000 (UTC)
> From: Stephen Waybright <[email-masked]>
> To: daniel doornbos <[email-masked]>,
> 	"[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>
> Subject: Re: [Tigers] DW Torque arm with or without Panhard rod?
> Message-ID:
> 	<[email-masked]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> I wouldn't think the panhard has any impact on straight line acceleration as it's function is to locate the axle side to side. In cornering, it should prevent lateral shock or flexing, as well as linkage binding you might experience if the leaf springs are providing lateral location. The torque will help acceleration by keeping axle wind up under control under power.
> My torque arm is a custom setup for the Tiger by Griggs Racing, but I'd probably go with Dan's kit if I were to do another Tiger. The Griggs suspension also has coil overs in place of the leafs, and a Watts link to replace the panhard rod, so I've never thought about Panhard bar mods. Can the stock leaf spring mounts prevent lateral motion and support sufficient lateral loads in hard cornering? I think I'd rather have a panhard bar (or a Watts link) and let the springs only provide longitudinal location.
> Best regards,
> Stephen Waybright
>
>
>        From: daniel doornbos via Tigers <[email-masked]>
>   To: "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>
>   Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2016 7:23 PM
>   Subject: [Tigers] DW Torque arm with or without rod?
>     
>   
>
> Who out there has?done direct back to back driving comparisions with the panhard rod installed, removed or changing the anchor point from Passenger to Driver side?? ?If so what were the conclusions? ?How did it change for heavy accelration and braking for both straightline and corners?
> Additional info to go with your observation?- Parhard rod chaise mount on driver side?(MKII stock) or passenger side (MKI config)?- Lowered Panhard rod mount for better roll center?- Other suspension mods?such as?DW torque arm,?stiffer rear springs ?- High HP engine?
> dan
>
> (changing my subscription from my work to private e-mail account)
> _______________________________________________
>
> [email-masked]
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> End of Tigers Digest, Vol 8, Issue 126
> **************************************
>

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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">One of our members of TE/AE has
      submitted an article about modifications to the Panhard Rod<br>
      mounting that will be published in next month's <i>Rootes Review.
      </i>Interested readers might want<br>
      to take a look at it. The author is John Logan, Sr. and his email
      is <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>, if you<br>
      would like to correspond with him.<br>
      <br>
      Cheers,<br>
      <br>
      Tod Brown<br>
      Editor, Rootes Review<br>
      <br>
      <br>
      <br>
      <br>
      <br>
      <br>
      <br>
      On 6/18/2016 10:53 PM, <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a> wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:[email-masked]"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">Send Tigers mailing list submissions to
	<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers">http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers</a>
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>

You can reach the person managing the list at
	<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Tigers digest..."

Today's Topics:

   1. DW Torque arm with or without Panhard rod? (daniel doornbos)
   2. Re: Sunbeam Tiger Wiki (Smit, Theo)
   3. Re: DW Torque arm with or without Panhard rod? (Stephen Waybright)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2016 00:23:45 +0000
From: daniel doornbos <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:[email-masked]">&lt;[email-masked]&gt;</a>
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:[email-masked]">"[email-masked]"</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:[email-masked]">&lt;[email-masked]&gt;</a>
Subject: [Tigers] DW Torque arm with or without Panhard rod?
Message-ID:
	<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:[email-masked]">&lt;[email-masked]&gt;</a>

Who out there has done direct back to back driving comparisions with the panhard rod installed, removed or changing the anchor point from Passenger to Driver side??  If so what were the conclusions?  How did it change for heavy accelration and braking for both straightline and corners?

Additional info to go with your observation?

- Parhard rod chaise mount on driver side (MKII stock) or passenger side (MKI config)?

- Lowered Panhard rod mount for better roll center?

- Other suspension mods such as DW torque arm, stiffer rear springs ?

- High HP engine?

dan

(changing my subscription from my work to private e-mail account)
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------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2016 02:53:14 +0000
From: "Smit, Theo" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:[email-masked]">&lt;[email-masked]&gt;</a>
To: J Clark <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:[email-masked]">&lt;[email-masked]&gt;</a>, <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:[email-masked]">"[email-masked]"</a>
	<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:[email-masked]">&lt;[email-masked]&gt;</a>
Subject: Re: [Tigers] Sunbeam Tiger Wiki

Hi Jon,
The last time that it was attempted to bring the Tiger Wiki page in line with what is commonly accepted as fact by marque experts, the ?editors? who did the earlier work to the page came out, reverted the edits, and let it be known in no uncertain terms that they would not tolerate outsiders besmirching the holy writ of the ?reliable sources? they had established through what they considered to be rigorous process.

The basic problem is that Robson is ?reliable source? simply because he has published a lot of books. Independent research (such as me looking at my Tiger and finding things that do not agree with their writing) is not permitted in Wikipedia because it?s not ?verifiable? by searching other in-print or otherwise published references. Books such as Norm Miller?s, being independently published and having a small total print run, carry little or no weight in Wikipedia-land, regardless of the quality of the underlying research.

If the earlier editors have abandoned wikipedia and it?s now possible to make edits, then that would be fantastic ? but it would still have to be very carefully done so that all parts of the Wiki page have an attribution back to a book that, from the Wiki point of view, passes the ?reliable source? test.

Since I have taken part in this jousting match several times earlier I?d be interested in seeing if progress can be made.

Theo

From: Tigers &lt;<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:[email-masked]">&lt;mailto:[email-masked]&gt;</a>&gt; on behalf of Tigers List &lt;<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:[email-masked]">&lt;mailto:[email-masked]&gt;</a>&gt;
Date: Saturday, June 18, 2016 at 9:22 AM
To: Tigers List &lt;<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:[email-masked]">&lt;mailto:[email-masked]&gt;</a>&gt;
Subject: Re: [Tigers] Sunbeam Tiger Wiki

To Rande Bellman,
The Wiki-"powers-that-be" have accorded the Sunbeam Tiger entry its much coveted "Featured" status... so it must be accurate!
Seriously though, seeing how it is not "protected" (even semi), anyone is free to make any and all improvements as they see fit.
Ask me how I know. I.e., as "pragmath", I have made a change or two myself.

                                                                                  Regards,
                                                                                    Jon
P.S. Btw, one thing it's sorely lacking are images of Tigers in stock, unadorned form. There is very little to choose from in in "Wikimedia".
Please, by all means, have at it.

________________________________

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email and any attachments are for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and contain information that may be Garmin confidential and/or Garmin legally privileged. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender by reply email and delete the message. Any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of this communication (including attachments) by someone other than the intended recipient is prohibited. Thank you.
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------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2016 02:50:15 +0000 (UTC)
From: Stephen Waybright <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:[email-masked]">&lt;[email-masked]&gt;</a>
To: daniel doornbos <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:[email-masked]">&lt;[email-masked]&gt;</a>,
	<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:[email-masked]">"[email-masked]"</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:[email-masked]">&lt;[email-masked]&gt;</a>
Subject: Re: [Tigers] DW Torque arm with or without Panhard rod?
Message-ID:
	<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:[email-masked]">&lt;[email-masked]&gt;</a>

I wouldn't think the panhard has any impact on straight line acceleration as it's function is to locate the axle side to side. In cornering, it should prevent lateral shock or flexing, as well as linkage binding you might experience if the leaf springs are providing lateral location. The torque will help acceleration by keeping axle wind up under control under power.
My torque arm is a custom setup for the Tiger by Griggs Racing, but I'd probably go with Dan's kit if I were to do another Tiger. The Griggs suspension also has coil overs in place of the leafs, and a Watts link to replace the panhard rod, so I've never thought about Panhard bar mods. Can the stock leaf spring mounts prevent lateral motion and support sufficient lateral loads in hard cornering? I think I'd rather have a panhard bar (or a Watts link) and let the springs only provide longitudinal location.
Best regards,
Stephen Waybright

      From: daniel doornbos via Tigers <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:[email-masked]">&lt;[email-masked]&gt;</a>
 To: <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:[email-masked]">"[email-masked]"</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:[email-masked]">&lt;[email-masked]&gt;</a> 
 Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2016 7:23 PM
 Subject: [Tigers] DW Torque arm with or without rod?

Who out there has?done direct back to back driving comparisions with the panhard rod installed, removed or changing the anchor point from Passenger to Driver side?? ?If so what were the conclusions? ?How did it change for heavy accelration and braking for both straightline and corners?
Additional info to go with your observation?- Parhard rod chaise mount on driver side?(MKII stock) or passenger side (MKI config)?- Lowered Panhard rod mount for better roll center?- Other suspension mods?such as?DW torque arm,?stiffer rear springs ?- High HP engine?
dan

(changing my subscription from my work to private e-mail account)
_______________________________________________

<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>

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**************************************

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