Subject: Re: [Tigers] Stock 260 Engine Maximum Cam Lift

From: Tom Witt via Tigers <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 17:51:52 -0700

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>>>Even with the original 1.67" intake valves, a 0.010 deck height and a =
0.040 thick head gasket, I don't comprehend where a 0.070" minimum valve =
to piston clearance is possible.<<<

I don=E2=80=99t know to what extent you are versed in the engine, but =
I=E2=80=99ll put this out there and use as you see needed (no insult to =
your knowledge intended in my comments).

The valves are recessed in the combustion chamber so the total of the =
deck height and the gasket in and of themselves do not determine the =
piston to valve clearance (if in fact that is what you assumed???). =
Probably the best way to determine the actual clearance is to:

A. If the head is not installed remove a larger intake valve spring. Set =
the head on a flat surface with the valve down, then set and zero a dial =
indicator on the valve stem tip. Push the valve up and measure the =
distance.   Add the stated deck and gasket thickness and that gives you =
the clearance. Unless you check them all there is a likelihood that not =
all will be the same. Casting accuracy and seat recession from wear or =
prior valve jobs can change the numbers. But, hopefully the others will =
be =E2=80=9Cclose.=E2=80=9D

B. If the head is installed you can bring the piston to TDC, remove the =
valve spring and do similar.  There is the likelihood that carbon =
build-up will give a lower number (but is the actual functional =
clearance). Also do not add in the deck height or the gasket thickness =
as they are already present. DO NOT crank the engine while doing this or =
you can drop or bend a valve. A narrow magnet may be required to pull =
the valve back up. Narrow rope can be fed into the chamber through the =
spark plug hole to support the valve while the spring is reinstalled.=20

Remember this gives you the total distance until a valve hits a piston =
so the required clearance (0.070?) will have to be subtracted from the =
total number.  Also, Cams ramp up and down the lobe and may not be at =
its highest lift when the piston is at TDC.  Therefore it is possible =
that the cam lift can be greater than the minimal clearance because the =
piston is not at TDC (or near enough) when it occurs.

  People have used talc powder on clay on top of the piston then cycled =
the engine through a few revolutions, and measured (Calipers) the height =
of the clay. Thus getting an =E2=80=9Cactive=E2=80=9D rather than a =
theoretical valve clearance.  This requires assembly/unassembly to =
measure and a very light spring so as not to collapse the lifter (if =
hydraulic). Also consider that advancing/retarding the cam from the =
centerline will also alter these =E2=80=9Cactive=E2=80=9D clearances. =
Lastly, the valve stem to rocker tip clearance (mechanical lifter =
=E2=80=93 if used) will create additional clearance.

I hope there is something you can glean from this and I haven=E2=80=99t =
created any confusion.=20

From: Rob Hogan via Tigers=20
Sent: Friday, April 22, 2016 9:17 PM
To: Tiger's List=20
Subject: [Tigers] Stock 260 Engine Maximum Cam Lift

Does anyone have experience using a hydraulic lifter camshaft with a =
lift greater than 0.440 (Clymer book page 41 maximum) in the flat top =
piston stock 260 cu. in. engine?

Even with the original 1.67" intake valves, a 0.010 deck height and a =
0.040 thick head gasket, I don't comprehend where a 0.070" minimum valve =
to piston clearance is possible.

=20
Rob Hogan

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<HTML><HEAD></HEAD>
<BODY dir=3Dltr>
<DIV dir=3Dltr>
<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000">
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana><FONT style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
18pt"><EM>&gt;&gt;&gt;Even with=20
the original 1.67" intake valves, a 0.010 deck height and a 0.040 thick =
head=20
gasket, I don't comprehend where a 0.070" minimum valve to piston =
clearance is=20
possible.&lt;&lt;&lt;</EM></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I don=E2=80=99t know to what extent you are versed in the engine, =
but I=E2=80=99ll put this=20
out there and use as you see needed (no insult to your knowledge =
intended in my=20
comments).</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The valves are recessed in the combustion chamber so the total of =
the deck=20
height and the gasket in and of themselves do not determine the piston =
to valve=20
clearance (if in fact that is what you assumed???). Probably the best =
way to=20
determine the actual clearance is to:</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>A. If the head is not installed remove a larger intake valve =
spring. Set=20
the head on a flat surface with the valve down, then set and zero a dial =

indicator on the valve stem tip. Push the valve up and measure the=20
distance.&nbsp;&nbsp; Add the stated deck and gasket thickness and that =
gives=20
you the clearance. Unless you check them all there is a likelihood that =
not all=20
will be the same. Casting accuracy and seat recession from wear or prior =
valve=20
jobs can change the numbers. But, hopefully the others will be =
=E2=80=9Cclose.=E2=80=9D</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>B. If the head is installed you can bring the piston to TDC, remove =
the=20
valve spring and do similar.&nbsp; There is the likelihood that carbon =
build-up=20
will give a lower number (but is the actual functional clearance). Also =
do not=20
add in the deck height or the gasket thickness as they are already =
present. DO=20
NOT crank the engine while doing this or you can drop or bend a valve. A =
narrow=20
magnet may be required to pull the valve back up. Narrow rope can be fed =
into=20
the chamber through the spark plug hole to support the valve while the =
spring is=20
reinstalled. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Remember this gives you the total distance until a valve hits a =
piston so=20
the required clearance (0.070?) will have to be subtracted from the =
total=20
number.&nbsp; Also, Cams ramp up and down the lobe and may not be at its =
highest=20
lift when the piston is at TDC.&nbsp; Therefore it is possible that the =
cam lift=20
can be greater than the minimal clearance because the piston is not at =
TDC (or=20
near enough) when it occurs.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp; People have used talc powder on clay on top of the piston =
then=20
cycled the engine through a few revolutions, and measured (Calipers) the =
height=20
of the clay. Thus getting an =E2=80=9Cactive=E2=80=9D rather than a =
theoretical valve=20
clearance.&nbsp; This requires assembly/unassembly to measure and a very =
light=20
spring so as not to collapse the lifter (if hydraulic). Also consider =
that=20
advancing/retarding the cam from the centerline will also alter these =
=E2=80=9Cactive=E2=80=9D=20
clearances. Lastly, the valve stem to rocker tip clearance (mechanical =
lifter =E2=80=93=20
if used) will create additional clearance.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I hope there is something you can glean from this and I =
haven=E2=80=99t created any=20
confusion. </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D'FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: =
"Calibri"; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; =
DISPLAY: inline'>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt tahoma">
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV style=3D"font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A =
title=[email-masked]=20
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">Rob Hogan via Tigers</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Friday, April 22, 2016 9:17 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=[email-masked]=20
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">Tiger's List</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> [Tigers] Stock 260 Engine Maximum Cam=20
Lift</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D'FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: =
"Calibri"; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; =
DISPLAY: inline'>
<DIV dir=3Dltr>
<DIV class=3Dgmail_default=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: large; FONT-FAMILY: verdana,sans-serif">Does anyone =
have=20
experience using a hydraulic lifter camshaft with a lift greater than =
0.440=20
(Clymer book page 41 maximum) in the flat top piston stock 260 cu. in.=20
engine?</DIV>
<DIV class=3Dgmail_default=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: large; FONT-FAMILY: verdana,sans-serif">&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV class=3Dgmail_default=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: large; FONT-FAMILY: verdana,sans-serif">Even with =
the original=20
1.67" intake valves, a 0.010 deck height and a 0.040 thick head gasket, =
I don't=20
comprehend where a 0.070" minimum valve to piston clearance is =
possible.</DIV>
<DIV class=3Dgmail_default=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: large; FONT-FAMILY: verdana,sans-serif">&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV class=3Dgmail_default=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: large; FONT-FAMILY: verdana,sans-serif"> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=3Dgmail_signature>
<DIV dir=3Dltr>Rob=20
Hogan<BR></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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_______________________________________________

[email-masked]

Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/[email-masked]

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---

From: Rob Hogan via Tigers <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 11:45:13 -0400

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I did the measurements as described in paragraph A to quickly and
inaccurately estimate what lift camshaft could be purchased since there was
no timely ability to make measurements with an assembled long block.  I had
either forgotten or discounted the maximum lobe height occurrence before
piston TDC.  Time constraints compelled a decision to purchase a
0.447/0.447 lift Comp Cams camshaft from Summit to safely stay within the
clearance limits of the stock 260.  From what I've read this camshaft is a
significant improvement over the stock Ford 260 cam toward producing low
end torque without venturing into the compromised driveability of a more
aggressive grind.

Thank you for everyone's advice and grind numbers that provided information
assuring a clearance problem won't occur.

Rob

Rob Hogan

On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 8:51 PM, Tom Witt via Tigers <[email-masked]=
wrote:

> *>>>Even with the original 1.67" intake valves, a 0.010 deck height and a
to
> piston clearance is possible.<<<*
>
> I don=E2=80=99t know to what extent you are versed in the engine, but I=
=E2=80=99ll put
> this out there and use as you see needed (no insult to your knowledge
> intended in my comments).
>
> The valves are recessed in the combustion chamber so the total of the dec=
k
> height and the gasket in and of themselves do not determine the piston to
> valve clearance (if in fact that is what you assumed???). Probably the be=
st
> way to determine the actual clearance is to:
>
> A. If the head is not installed remove a larger intake valve spring. Set
> the head on a flat surface with the valve down, then set and zero a dial
> indicator on the valve stem tip. Push the valve up and measure the
> distance.   Add the stated deck and gasket thickness and that gives you t=
he
> clearance. Unless you check them all there is a likelihood that not all
> will be the same. Casting accuracy and seat recession from wear or prior
> valve jobs can change the numbers. But, hopefully the others will be
> =E2=80=9Cclose.=E2=80=9D
>
> B. If the head is installed you can bring the piston to TDC, remove the
> valve spring and do similar.  There is the likelihood that carbon build-u=
p
> will give a lower number (but is the actual functional clearance). Also d=
o
> not add in the deck height or the gasket thickness as they are already
> present. DO NOT crank the engine while doing this or you can drop or bend=
 a
> valve. A narrow magnet may be required to pull the valve back up. Narrow
> rope can be fed into the chamber through the spark plug hole to support t=
he
> valve while the spring is reinstalled.
>
> Remember this gives you the total distance until a valve hits a piston so
> the required clearance (0.070?) will have to be subtracted from the total
> number.  Also, Cams ramp up and down the lobe and may not be at its highe=
st
> lift when the piston is at TDC.  Therefore it is possible that the cam li=
ft
> can be greater than the minimal clearance because the piston is not at TD=
C
> (or near enough) when it occurs.
>
>   People have used talc powder on clay on top of the piston then cycled
of
> the clay. Thus getting an =E2=80=9Cactive=E2=80=9D rather than a theoreti=
cal valve
> clearance.  This requires assembly/unassembly to measure and a very light
> spring so as not to collapse the lifter (if hydraulic). Also consider tha=
t
> advancing/retarding the cam from the centerline will also alter these
> =E2=80=9Cactive=E2=80=9D clearances. Lastly, the valve stem to rocker tip=
 clearance
> (mechanical lifter =E2=80=93 if used) will create additional clearance.
>
> I hope there is something you can glean from this and I haven=E2=80=99t c=
reated
> any confusion.
>
> *From:* Rob Hogan via Tigers <[email-masked]>
> *Sent:* Friday, April 22, 2016 9:17 PM
> *To:* Tiger's List <[email-masked]>
> *Subject:* [Tigers] Stock 260 Engine Maximum Cam Lift
>
> Does anyone have experience using a hydraulic lifter camshaft with a lift
> greater than 0.440 (Clymer book page 41 maximum) in the flat top piston
> stock 260 cu. in. engine?
>
> Even with the original 1.67" intake valves, a 0.010 deck height and a
to
> piston clearance is possible.
>
> Rob Hogan
>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/[email-masked]
>
>
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:verdana,=
sans-serif">I did the measurements as described in paragraph A to quickly a=
nd inaccurately estimate what lift camshaft could be purchased since there =
was no timely ability to make measurements with an assembled long block.=C2=
=A0 I had either forgotten or discounted the maximum lobe height occurrence=
 before piston TDC.=C2=A0 Time constraints compelled a decision to purchase=
 a 0.447/0.447 lift Comp Cams camshaft from Summit to safely stay within th=
e clearance limits of the stock 260.=C2=A0 From what I&#39;ve read this cam=
shaft is a significant improvement over the stock Ford 260 cam toward produ=
cing low end torque without venturing into the compromised driveability of =
a more aggressive grind.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-fa=
mily:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"fo=
nt-family:verdana,sans-serif">Thank you for everyone&#39;s advice and grind=
 numbers that provided information assuring a clearance problem won&#39;t o=
ccur.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-s=
erif"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:verdana,s=
ans-serif">Rob</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br clear=3D"all"><div=
><div class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr">Rob Hogan<br></div></div><=
/div>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 8:51 PM, Tom Witt vi=
a Tigers <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" tar=
get=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;=
padding-left:1ex">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div style=3D"FONT-SIZE:12pt;FONT-FAMILY:&#39;Calibri&#39;;COLOR:#000000"><=
span class=3D"">
<div><font face=3D"Verdana"><font style=3D"FONT-SIZE:18pt"><em>&gt;&gt;&gt;=
Even with=20
the original 1.67&quot; intake valves, a 0.010 deck height and a 0.040 thic=
k head=20
gasket, I don&#39;t comprehend where a 0.070&quot; minimum valve to piston =
clearance is=20
possible.&lt;&lt;&lt;</em></font></font></div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
</span><div>I don=E2=80=99t know to what extent you are versed in the engin=
e, but I=E2=80=99ll put this=20
out there and use as you see needed (no insult to your knowledge intended i=
n my=20
comments).</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>The valves are recessed in the combustion chamber so the total of the =
deck=20
height and the gasket in and of themselves do not determine the piston to v=
alve=20
clearance (if in fact that is what you assumed???). Probably the best way t=
o=20
determine the actual clearance is to:</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>A. If the head is not installed remove a larger intake valve spring. S=
et=20
the head on a flat surface with the valve down, then set and zero a dial=20
indicator on the valve stem tip. Push the valve up and measure the=20
distance.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Add the stated deck and gasket thickness and that giv=
es=20
you the clearance. Unless you check them all there is a likelihood that not=
 all=20
will be the same. Casting accuracy and seat recession from wear or prior va=
lve=20
jobs can change the numbers. But, hopefully the others will be =E2=80=9Cclo=
se.=E2=80=9D</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>B. If the head is installed you can bring the piston to TDC, remove th=
e=20
valve spring and do similar.=C2=A0 There is the likelihood that carbon buil=
d-up=20
will give a lower number (but is the actual functional clearance). Also do =
not=20
add in the deck height or the gasket thickness as they are already present.=
 DO=20
NOT crank the engine while doing this or you can drop or bend a valve. A na=
rrow=20
magnet may be required to pull the valve back up. Narrow rope can be fed in=
to=20
the chamber through the spark plug hole to support the valve while the spri=
ng is=20
reinstalled. </div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>Remember this gives you the total distance until a valve hits a piston=
 so=20
the required clearance (0.070?) will have to be subtracted from the total=
=20
number.=C2=A0 Also, Cams ramp up and down the lobe and may not be at its hi=
ghest=20
lift when the piston is at TDC.=C2=A0 Therefore it is possible that the cam=
 lift=20
can be greater than the minimal clearance because the piston is not at TDC =
(or=20
near enough) when it occurs.</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>=C2=A0 People have used talc powder on clay on top of the piston then=
=20
cycled the engine through a few revolutions, and measured (Calipers) the he=
ight=20
of the clay. Thus getting an =E2=80=9Cactive=E2=80=9D rather than a theoret=
ical valve=20
clearance.=C2=A0 This requires assembly/unassembly to measure and a very li=
ght=20
spring so as not to collapse the lifter (if hydraulic). Also consider that=
=20
advancing/retarding the cam from the centerline will also alter these =E2=
=80=9Cactive=E2=80=9D=20
clearances. Lastly, the valve stem to rocker tip clearance (mechanical lift=
er =E2=80=93=20
if used) will create additional clearance.</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>I hope there is something you can glean from this and I haven=E2=80=99=
t created any=20
confusion. </div>
<div style=3D"FONT-SIZE:small;TEXT-DECORATION:none;FONT-FAMILY:&quot;Calibr=
i&quot;;FONT-WEIGHT:normal;COLOR:#000000;FONT-STYLE:normal;DISPLAY:inline">
<div style=3D"FONT:10pt tahoma">
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div style=3D"BACKGROUND:#f5f5f5">
<div><b>From:</b> <a title=3D"[email-masked]" href=3D"mailto:tigers@=
autox.team.net" target=3D"_blank">Rob Hogan via Tigers</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Friday, April 22, 2016 9:17 PM</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a title=3D"[email-masked]" href=3D"mailto:tigers@au=
tox.team.net" target=3D"_blank">Tiger&#39;s List</a> </div><span class=3D""=
<div><b>Subject:</b> [Tigers] Stock 260 Engine Maximum Cam=20
Lift</div></span></div></div>
<div>=C2=A0</div></div><span class=3D"">
<div style=3D"FONT-SIZE:small;TEXT-DECORATION:none;FONT-FAMILY:&quot;Calibr=
i&quot;;FONT-WEIGHT:normal;COLOR:#000000;FONT-STYLE:normal;DISPLAY:inline">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"FONT-SIZE:large;FONT-FAMILY:verdana,s=
ans-serif">Does anyone have=20
experience using a hydraulic lifter camshaft with a lift greater than 0.440=
=20
(Clymer book page 41 maximum) in the flat top piston stock 260 cu. in.=20
engine?</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"FONT-SIZE:large;FONT-FAMILY:verdana,s=
ans-serif">=C2=A0</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"FONT-SIZE:large;FONT-FAMILY:verdana,s=
ans-serif">Even with the original=20
1.67&quot; intake valves, a 0.010 deck height and a 0.040 thick head gasket=
, I don&#39;t=20
comprehend where a 0.070&quot; minimum valve to piston clearance is possibl=
e.</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"FONT-SIZE:large;FONT-FAMILY:verdana,s=
ans-serif">=C2=A0</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"FONT-SIZE:large;FONT-FAMILY:verdana,s=
ans-serif"> </div>
<div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">Rob=20
Hogan<br></div></div></div></div></div></span></div></div></div>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a><br>
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et=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a><br>
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"_blank">http://www.team.net/forums</a><br>
Unsubscribe: <a href=3D"http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/robert=
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t/mailman/options/tigers/[email-masked]</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>

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