Subject: Re: [Tigers] Backing up other cars

From: Tom Parker via Tigers <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 10:22:08 -0400

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MGB steering arms with the stock Tiger rack (since Dale no longer makes the
Midget rack kit...) solves a lot of the wheel scrub issues when backing up.
The steering's lighter, too, by just a bit. DrMayf wrote (imho) the
definitive analysis on Ackerman v Tigers issue. The best we can hope for is
a steering angle of  about zero degrees with the stock crossmember.

Tom

'67 Mark 2

On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 10:21 PM, Jay Laifman via Tigers <
[email-masked]> wrote:

> Every time I back up a non-Tiger, my predispostion to not going full lock
> on the Tiger seems to always come through and prevents me from doing it
> with the non-Tiger too.  I get a chuckle out of it each time - but I still
> can't bring myself to do it!
>
> Just thought I'd share that thought.
>
> Jay
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> [email-masked]
>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
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<div dir=3D"ltr">MGB steering arms with the stock Tiger rack (since Dale no=
 longer makes the Midget rack kit...) solves a lot of the wheel scrub issue=
s when backing up. The steering&#39;s lighter, too, by just a bit. DrMayf w=
rote (imho) the definitive analysis on Ackerman v Tigers issue. The best we=
 can hope for is a steering angle of =C2=A0about zero degrees with the stoc=
k crossmember.<div><br></div><div>Tom</div><div><br></div><div>&#39;67 Mark=
 2</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On =
Mon, May 18, 2015 at 10:21 PM, Jay Laifman via Tigers <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]=
am.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"=
ltr">Every time I back up a non-Tiger, my predispostion to not going full l=
ock on the Tiger seems to always come through and prevents me from doing it=
 with the non-Tiger too.=C2=A0 I get a chuckle out of it each time - but I =
still can&#39;t bring myself to do it!<div><br></div><div>Just thought I&#3=
9;d share that thought.</div><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"=
><div><br></div><div>Jay</div></font></span></div>
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From: Gary via Tigers <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 20 May 2015 15:41:37 -0700

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Tom,
Interesting... I bought some MGB arms a
long time ago.  How did you connect them?
Gary

Sent from my iPhone

> On May 19, 2015, at 7:22 AM, Tom Parker via Tigers <[email-masked]>=
 wrote:
>=20
> MGB steering arms with the stock Tiger rack (since Dale no longer makes th=
e Midget rack kit...) solves a lot of the wheel scrub issues when backing up=
. The steering's lighter, too, by just a bit. DrMayf wrote (imho) the defini=
tive analysis on Ackerman v Tigers issue. The best we can hope for is a stee=
ring angle of  about zero degrees with the stock crossmember.
>=20
> Tom
>=20
> '67 Mark 2
>=20
>> On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 10:21 PM, Jay Laifman via Tigers <[email-masked]=
am.net> wrote:
>> Every time I back up a non-Tiger, my predispostion to not going full lock=
 on the Tiger seems to always come through and prevents me from doing it wit=
h the non-Tiger too.  I get a chuckle out of it each time - but I still can'=
t bring myself to do it!
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/tkparker1941@gm=
ail.com
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/garywinblad@comc=
ast.net
>=20
>=20

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>Tom,</div><div>Interesting... I bought=
 some MGB arms a</div><div>long time ago. &nbsp;How did you connect them?</d=
iv><div>Gary<br><br>Sent from my iPhone</div><div><br>On May 19, 2015, at 7:=
22 AM, Tom Parker via Tigers &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">ti=
[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><d=
iv><div dir=3D"ltr">MGB steering arms with the stock Tiger rack (since Dale n=
o longer makes the Midget rack kit...) solves a lot of the wheel scrub issue=
s when backing up. The steering's lighter, too, by just a bit. DrMayf wrote (=
imho) the definitive analysis on Ackerman v Tigers issue. The best we can ho=
pe for is a steering angle of &nbsp;about zero degrees with the stock crossm=
ember.<div><br></div><div>Tom</div><div><br></div><div>'67 Mark 2</div></div=
><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, May 18, 2=
015 at 10:21 PM, Jay Laifman via Tigers <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt;</=
span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex=
;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Every time I b=
ack up a non-Tiger, my predispostion to not going full lock on the Tiger see=
ms to always come through and prevents me from doing it with the non-Tiger t=
oo.&nbsp; I get a chuckle out of it each time - but I still can't bring myse=
lf to do it!<div><br></div><div>Just thought I'd share that thought.</div><s=
pan class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><div><br></div><div>Jay</div></=
font></span></div>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
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<br></blockquote></div><br></div>
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___________________________</span><br><span></span><br><span><a href=3D"mail=
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From: Gary via Tigers <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 20 May 2015 19:08:38 -0700

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Thanks Tom, but I knew all that..
What I was wondering was what tie rod ends
or machining on the steering arms did you
have to do?   The Alpine arms are slightly
longer than the MGB arms and should help
even more,  that was part of Doane's race
mods IIRC.  I haven' t heard of anyone else
using the stock rack like you.  Did you have
to "unbend" the rack arms and did you make
sure you didn't run out of rack ball joint
travel?  You should be able to do your own
precision alignment using the "strings"
method, I do.
Gary

Sent from my iPhone

> On May 20, 2015, at 6:31 PM, Tom Parker <[email-masked]> wrote:
>=20
> Hi Gary, and Buck,
>=20
> First, Buck's right, and I think I implied that. The MGB arms DO NOT fix t=
he Ackerman Angle issue in the Tiger. "The best we can hope for is a steerin=
g angle of  about zero degrees with the stock crossmember."  The issue is th=
e MGA rack George fitted to the Alpine crossmember is way too far forward, a=
nd it isn't possible to get close to a proper Ackerman Angle. It isn't, imho=
, a problem with the rack, it's with the mounting position. For about $10,00=
0 Dale can "fix" the problem by constructing a new crossmember with the rack=
 in a straight line with the steering arms. Is it that simple? No, and I won=
't begin to try to understand the math involved. See DrMayf's article.
>=20
> What the arms do is what we both said earlier: the make the steering a bit=
 easier, and they reduce the tire scrub a bit. That's all.  The MGB arms are=
 about an inch longer than the stock Tiger arms. It's about as far as you ca=
n go, and it requires 15" or larger wheels.
>=20
> There are a few "solutions to the problem. I know the redesigned crossmemb=
er works, and I'be seen Alpine spindles reversed (swapped side to side) with=
 Alpine steering arms to the front, but I don't know how close it comes to s=
olving anything. And I don't know if that "fix" works with the Tiger rack.
>=20
> Now to the MGB steering arms: Randy Willett ([email-masked]) did the m=
odification. It involved elongating the center mounting hole a bit and addin=
g a spacer to align the arm "parallel" (more or less) to the spindle. I torq=
ued it down to Tiger specs, Randy argued for a bit more torque. He supplied g=
rade 8 bolts. There's maybe an inch of thread left at the tie rod ends, and l=
ess than an inch clearance to the inside of the wheel. I'm not going to race=
 the car, street or otherwise. The MGB "solution" helps, and that's all I wa=
s looking for. I knew up front it wasn't a "fix."
>=20
> So... a bit easier (lighter) steering, not as much scrub. With @ 0" toe th=
e steering is quite sensitive. I used a Toe Alignment Bar; it's close to zer=
o toe. How close? I dunno; that takes an alignment rack and the local guys a=
ren't interested in aligning a car without alignment turnbuckles for less th=
an @ $350.00. That'll keep 'till I get the Kitty back to Georgia.
>=20
> Tom
> '67 Mark 2
>=20
>=20
>> On Wed, May 20, 2015 at 6:41 PM, Gary <[email-masked]> wrote:
>> Tom,
>>> On May 19, 2015, at 7:22 AM, Tom Parker via Tigers <[email-masked]=
t> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> MGB steering arms with the stock Tiger rack (since Dale no longer makes t=
he Midget rack kit...) solves a lot of the wheel scrub issues when backing u=
p. The steering's lighter, too, by just a bit. DrMayf wrote (imho) the defin=
itive analysis on Ackerman v Tigers issue. The best we can hope for is a ste=
ering angle of  about zero degrees with the stock crossmember.
>>>=20
>>> Tom
>>>=20
>>> '67 Mark 2
>>>=20
>>>> On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 10:21 PM, Jay Laifman via Tigers <tigers@autox.=
team.net> wrote:
>>>> Every time I back up a non-Tiger, my predispostion to not going full lo=
ck on the Tiger seems to always come through and prevents me from doing it w=
ith the non-Tiger too.  I get a chuckle out of it each time - but I still ca=
n't bring myself to do it!
>>>> Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/tkparker1941@=
gmail.com
>>> Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/garywinblad@co=
mcast.net

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>Thanks Tom, but I knew all that..</div=
><div>What I was wondering was what tie rod ends</div><div>or machining on t=
he steering arms did you</div><div>have to do? &nbsp; The Alpine arms are sl=
ightly</div><div>longer than the MGB arms and should help</div><div>even mor=
e, &nbsp;that was part of Doane's race</div><div>mods IIRC. &nbsp;I haven' t=
 heard of anyone else</div><div>using the stock rack like you. &nbsp;Did you=
 have</div><div>to "unbend" the rack arms and did you make</div><div>sure yo=
u didn't run out of rack ball joint</div><div>travel? &nbsp;You should be ab=
le to do your own</div><div>precision alignment using the "strings"</div><di=
v>method, I do.</div><div>Gary</div><div><br><br>Sent from my iPhone</div><d=
iv><br>On May 20, 2015, at 6:31 PM, Tom Parker &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tkparke=
[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockqu=
ote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Gary, and Buck,<div><br></div><di=
v>First, Buck's right, and I think I implied that. The MGB arms DO NOT fix t=
he Ackerman Angle issue in the Tiger. "The best we can hope for is a steerin=
g angle of &nbsp;about zero degrees with the stock crossmember." &nbsp;The i=
ssue is the MGA rack George fitted to the Alpine crossmember is way too far f=
orward, and it isn't possible to get close to a proper Ackerman Angle. It is=
n't, imho, a problem with the rack, it's with the mounting position. For abo=
ut $10,000 Dale can "fix" the problem by constructing a new crossmember with=
 the rack in a straight line with the steering arms. Is it that simple? No, a=
nd I won't begin to try to understand the math involved. See DrMayf's articl=
e.</div><div><br></div><div>What the arms do is what we both said earlier: t=
he make the steering a bit easier, and they reduce the tire scrub a bit. Tha=
t's all.&nbsp; The MGB arms are about an inch longer than the stock Tiger ar=
ms. It's about as far as you can go, and it requires 15" or larger wheels.</=
div><div><br></div><div>There are a few "solutions to the problem. I know th=
e redesigned crossmember works, and I'be seen Alpine spindles reversed (swap=
ped side to side) with Alpine steering arms to the front, but I don't know h=
ow close it comes to solving anything. And I don't know if that "fix" works w=
ith the Tiger rack.</div><div><br></div><div>Now to the MGB steering arms: R=
andy Willett (<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>) d=
id the modification. It involved elongating the center mounting hole a bit a=
nd adding a spacer to align the arm "parallel" (more or less) to the spindle=
. I torqued it down to Tiger specs, Randy argued for a bit more torque. He s=
upplied grade 8 bolts. There's maybe an inch of thread left at the tie rod e=
nds, and less than an inch clearance to the inside of the wheel. I'm not goi=
ng to race the car, street or otherwise. The MGB "solution" helps, and that'=
s all I was looking for. I knew up front it wasn't a "fix."</div><div><br></=
div><div>So... a bit easier (lighter) steering, not as much scrub. With @ 0"=
 toe the steering is quite sensitive. I used a Toe Alignment Bar; it's close=
 to zero toe. How close? I dunno; that takes an alignment rack and the local=
 guys aren't interested in aligning a car without alignment turnbuckles for l=
ess than @ $350.00. That'll keep 'till I get the Kitty back to Georgia.</div=
><div><br></div><div>Tom</div><div>'67 Mark 2</div><div><br></div></div><div=
 class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, May 20, 2015 a=
t 6:41 PM, Gary <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:garywinblad@comcast.=
net" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blo=
ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc=
c solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div>Tom,</div><div>Interesting.=
.. I bought some MGB arms a</div><div>long time ago.&nbsp; How did you conne=
ct them?</div><div>Gary<br><br>Sent from my iPhone</div><div><br>On May 19, 2=
015, at 7:22 AM, Tom Parker via Tigers &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]=
am.net" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div>=
<blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr">MGB steering arms with the s=
tock Tiger rack (since Dale no longer makes the Midget rack kit...) solves a=
 lot of the wheel scrub issues when backing up. The steering's lighter, too,=
 by just a bit. DrMayf wrote (imho) the definitive analysis on Ackerman v Ti=
gers issue. The best we can hope for is a steering angle of &nbsp;about zero=
 degrees with the stock crossmember.<div><br></div><div>Tom</div><div><br></=
div><div>'67 Mark 2</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"=
gmail_quote">On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 10:21 PM, Jay Laifman via Tigers <span d=
ir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">ti=
[email-masked]</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quot=
e" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><=
div dir=3D"ltr">Every time I back up a non-Tiger, my predispostion to not go=
ing full lock on the Tiger seems to always come through and prevents me from=
 doing it with the non-Tiger too.&nbsp; I get a chuckle out of it each time -=
 but I still can't bring myself to do it!<div><br></div><div>Just thought I'=
d share that thought.</div><span><font color=3D"#888888"><div><br></div><div=
>Jay</div></font></span></div>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
<br>
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.net</a><br>
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/www.team.net/donate.html</a><br>
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From: Tom Witt via Tigers <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 09:39:19 -0700 boundary="----=_NextPart_000_007A_01D093AA.02E3C7B0"

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I have the MGB arms on my Tiger.  They require about a 1/2=E2=80=9D =
spacer on the front bolt to fill in a gap between the arm and the =
spindle. The two bolt holes do not align perfectly. You need to file or =
mill out one of the holes a small amount as I believe the spacing is too =
large on the MGB arm. If you are searching for every bit of help you can =
get, my recollection is that the front hole is filed towards the rear =
and that positions the arm about a 1/16=E2=80=9D-1/8=E2=80=9D more =
forward, rather than 1/16=E2=80=9D-1/8=E2=80=9D more rearward if you =
file the rear hole.  I did this over 10 years ago so check by =
observation for which hole to file, but the goal is to get the arm as =
far forward as possible. The backing plate/shield needs a notch about =
1=E2=80=9D high and about 1/2=E2=80=9D deep as the arm positions in its =
path and you need the room for the tie rod end.  For the record I have =
13=E2=80=9D Cosmic wheels (like those on the Harrington Tiger) and they =
clear this modification though I believe I have about a 1/4=E2=80=9D =
spacer under the wheel. Sorry for the vagueness but my car has been on =
jack stands for 15 years now and is currently buried in wood for my =
daughters Tiny House.

Regarding rack modification; my rack apparently had one of the ends =
damaged at some time in its life. Someone did a hack repair by simply =
welding on an Alpine section. A very dubious repair.  Some here were =
horrified when I shortened both rack ends and then cut threads with a =
die (left and right threads) as the original threads are rolled. The die =
was somewhat adjustable and I made light cuts after the initial cut. I =
constantly back cut after a few degrees of rotation of the die. I then =
lightly chased the threads with a fine file and did everything I could =
to remove burrs, tears, etc.. I did the threads likewise with a grade 8 =
bolt which attached to the tie rod end. To couple the two together I =
used the split tube and clamp that just about every American car had =
before struts became popular. They needed to be as short as possible and =
70=E2=80=99s era AMC tubes (Hornet I recall) were used.  Both the =
adjustable die and the split tube/clamps were helpful because the =
diameter of the rack is not consistent. It allows for the incremental =
adjustment people desire and frankly I feel a whole lot more comfortable =
with this than a welded on Alpine piece.  That said, it would be =
something that one does at their own risk.  I don=E2=80=99t advise =
cutting up a stock rack, but in my case it seemed irrelevant.

Notes on the images:  I do not have the clamps on the split tube at this =
time, for the record I plan on having two clamps per side. Parts for the =
modification. Buried Tiger (will it EVER see the road in y lifetime???).

From: Gary via Tigers=20
Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2015 7:08 PM
To: Tom Parker=20
Cc: Tiger's Den=20
Subject: Re: [Tigers] Backing up other cars

Sent from my iPhone

  Hi Gary, and Buck,=20

  First, Buck's right, and I think I implied that. The MGB arms DO NOT =
fix the Ackerman Angle issue in the Tiger. "The best we can hope for is =
a steering angle of  about zero degrees with the stock crossmember."  =
The issue is the MGA rack George fitted to the Alpine crossmember is way =
too far forward, and it isn't possible to get close to a proper Ackerman =
Angle. It isn't, imho, a problem with the rack, it's with the mounting =
position. For about $10,000 Dale can "fix" the problem by constructing a =
new crossmember with the rack in a straight line with the steering arms. =
Is it that simple? No, and I won't begin to try to understand the math =
involved. See DrMayf's article.

  What the arms do is what we both said earlier: the make the steering a =
bit easier, and they reduce the tire scrub a bit. That's all.  The MGB =
arms are about an inch longer than the stock Tiger arms. It's about as =
far as you can go, and it requires 15" or larger wheels.

  There are a few "solutions to the problem. I know the redesigned =
crossmember works, and I'be seen Alpine spindles reversed (swapped side =
to side) with Alpine steering arms to the front, but I don't know how =
close it comes to solving anything. And I don't know if that "fix" works =
with the Tiger rack.

  Now to the MGB steering arms: Randy Willett ([email-masked]) did =
the modification. It involved elongating the center mounting hole a bit =
and adding a spacer to align the arm "parallel" (more or less) to the =
spindle. I torqued it down to Tiger specs, Randy argued for a bit more =
torque. He supplied grade 8 bolts. There's maybe an inch of thread left =
at the tie rod ends, and less than an inch clearance to the inside of =
the wheel. I'm not going to race the car, street or otherwise. The MGB =
"solution" helps, and that's all I was looking for. I knew up front it =
wasn't a "fix."

  So... a bit easier (lighter) steering, not as much scrub. With @ 0" =
toe the steering is quite sensitive. I used a Toe Alignment Bar; it's =
close to zero toe. How close? I dunno; that takes an alignment rack and =
the local guys aren't interested in aligning a car without alignment =
turnbuckles for less than @ $350.00. That'll keep 'till I get the Kitty =
back to Georgia.

  Tom
  '67 Mark 2

    Tom,

    Sent from my iPhone

    On May 19, 2015, at 7:22 AM, Tom Parker via Tigers =
<[email-masked]> wrote:

      MGB steering arms with the stock Tiger rack (since Dale no longer =
makes the Midget rack kit...) solves a lot of the wheel scrub issues =
when backing up. The steering's lighter, too, by just a bit. DrMayf =
wrote (imho) the definitive analysis on Ackerman v Tigers issue. The =
best we can hope for is a steering angle of  about zero degrees with the =
stock crossmember.=20

      Tom

      '67 Mark 2

      On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 10:21 PM, Jay Laifman via Tigers =
<[email-masked]> wrote:

        Every time I back up a non-Tiger, my predispostion to not going =
full lock on the Tiger seems to always come through and prevents me from =
doing it with the non-Tiger too.  I get a chuckle out of it each time - =
but I still can't bring myself to do it!=20

        Jay
------=_NextPart_001_007B_01D093AA.02E3C7B0
	charset="UTF-8"
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<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" =
http-equiv=3Dcontent-type></HEAD>
<BODY dir=3Dltr>
<DIV dir=3Dltr>
<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000">
<DIV>I have the MGB arms on my Tiger.&nbsp; They require about a =
1/2=E2=80=9D spacer on=20
the front bolt to fill in a gap between the arm and the spindle. The two =
bolt=20
holes do not align perfectly. You need to file or mill out one of the =
holes a=20
small amount as I believe the spacing is too large on the MGB arm. If =
you are=20
searching for every bit of help you can get, my recollection is that the =
front=20
hole is filed towards the rear and that positions the arm about a =
1/16=E2=80=9D-1/8=E2=80=9D=20
more forward, rather than 1/16=E2=80=9D-1/8=E2=80=9D more rearward if =
you file the rear=20
hole.&nbsp; I did this over 10 years ago so check by observation for =
which hole=20
to file, but the goal is to get the arm as far forward as possible. The =
backing=20
plate/shield needs a notch about 1=E2=80=9D high and about 1/2=E2=80=9D =
deep as the arm=20
positions in its path and you need the room for the tie rod end.&nbsp; =
For the=20
record I have 13=E2=80=9D Cosmic wheels (like those on the Harrington =
Tiger) and they=20
clear this modification though I believe I have about a 1/4=E2=80=9D =
spacer under the=20
wheel. Sorry for the vagueness but my car has been on jack stands for 15 =
years=20
now and is currently buried in wood for my daughters Tiny House.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Regarding rack modification; my rack apparently had one of the ends =
damaged=20
at some time in its life. Someone did a hack repair by simply welding on =
an=20
Alpine section. A very dubious repair.&nbsp; Some here were horrified =
when I=20
shortened both rack ends and then cut threads with a die (left and right =

threads) as the original threads are rolled. The die was somewhat =
adjustable and=20
I made light cuts after the initial cut. I constantly back cut after a =
few=20
degrees of rotation of the die. I then lightly chased the threads with a =
fine=20
file and did everything I could to remove burrs, tears, etc.. I did the =
threads=20
likewise with a grade 8 bolt which attached to the tie rod end. To =
couple the=20
two together I used the split tube and clamp that just about every =
American car=20
had before struts became popular. They needed to be as short as possible =
and=20
70=E2=80=99s era AMC tubes (Hornet I recall) were used.&nbsp; Both the =
adjustable die=20
and the split tube/clamps were helpful because the diameter of the rack =
is not=20
consistent. It allows for the incremental adjustment people desire and =
frankly I=20
feel a whole lot more comfortable with this than a welded on Alpine =
piece.&nbsp;=20
That said, it would be something that one does at their own risk.&nbsp; =
I don=E2=80=99t=20
advise cutting up a stock rack, but in my case it seemed =
irrelevant.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Notes on the images:&nbsp; I do not have the clamps on the split =
tube at=20
this time, for the record I plan on having two clamps per side. Parts =
for the=20
modification. Buried Tiger (will it EVER see the road in y =
lifetime???).</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D'FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: =
"Calibri"; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; =
DISPLAY: inline'>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt tahoma">
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV style=3D"font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A =
title=[email-masked]=20
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">Gary via Tigers</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, May 20, 2015 7:08 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=[email-masked]=20
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">Tom Parker</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Cc:</B> <A title=[email-masked]=20
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">Tiger's Den</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Tigers] Backing up other =
cars</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D'FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: =
"Calibri"; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; =
DISPLAY: inline'>
<DIV>Thanks Tom, but I knew all that..</DIV>
<DIV>What I was wondering was what tie rod ends</DIV>
<DIV>or machining on the steering arms did you</DIV>
<DIV>have to do?&nbsp;&nbsp; The Alpine arms are slightly</DIV>
<DIV>longer than the MGB arms and should help</DIV>
<DIV>even more,&nbsp; that was part of Doane's race</DIV>
<DIV>mods IIRC.&nbsp; I haven' t heard of anyone else</DIV>
<DIV>using the stock rack like you.&nbsp; Did you have</DIV>
<DIV>to "unbend" the rack arms and did you make</DIV>
<DIV>sure you didn't run out of rack ball joint</DIV>
<DIV>travel?&nbsp; You should be able to do your own</DIV>
<DIV>precision alignment using the "strings"</DIV>
<DIV>method, I do.</DIV>
<DIV>Gary</DIV>
<DIV><BR><BR>Sent from my iPhone</DIV>
<DIV><BR>On May 20, 2015, at 6:31 PM, Tom Parker &lt;<A=20
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</A>&gt;=20
wrote:<BR><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite">
  <DIV>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr>Hi Gary, and Buck,=20
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>First, Buck's right, and I think I implied that. The MGB arms DO =
NOT fix=20
  the Ackerman Angle issue in the Tiger. "The best we can hope for is a =
steering=20
  angle of&nbsp; about zero degrees with the stock crossmember."&nbsp; =
The issue=20
  is the MGA rack George fitted to the Alpine crossmember is way too far =

  forward, and it isn't possible to get close to a proper Ackerman =
Angle. It=20
  isn't, imho, a problem with the rack, it's with the mounting position. =
For=20
  about $10,000 Dale can "fix" the problem by constructing a new =
crossmember=20
  with the rack in a straight line with the steering arms. Is it that =
simple?=20
  No, and I won't begin to try to understand the math involved. See =
DrMayf's=20
  article.</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>What the arms do is what we both said earlier: the make the =
steering a=20
  bit easier, and they reduce the tire scrub a bit. That's all.&nbsp; =
The MGB=20
  arms are about an inch longer than the stock Tiger arms. It's about as =
far as=20
  you can go, and it requires 15" or larger wheels.</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>There are a few "solutions to the problem. I know the redesigned=20
  crossmember works, and I'be seen Alpine spindles reversed (swapped =
side to=20
  side) with Alpine steering arms to the front, but I don't know how =
close it=20
  comes to solving anything. And I don't know if that "fix" works with =
the Tiger=20
  rack.</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Now to the MGB steering arms: Randy Willett (<A=20
  href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</A>) did the =
modification.=20
  It involved elongating the center mounting hole a bit and adding a =
spacer to=20
  align the arm "parallel" (more or less) to the spindle. I torqued it =
down to=20
  Tiger specs, Randy argued for a bit more torque. He supplied grade 8 =
bolts.=20
  There's maybe an inch of thread left at the tie rod ends, and less =
than an=20
  inch clearance to the inside of the wheel. I'm not going to race the =
car,=20
  street or otherwise. The MGB "solution" helps, and that's all I was =
looking=20
  for. I knew up front it wasn't a "fix."</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>So... a bit easier (lighter) steering, not as much scrub. With @ =
0" toe=20
  the steering is quite sensitive. I used a Toe Alignment Bar; it's =
close to=20
  zero toe. How close? I dunno; that takes an alignment rack and the =
local guys=20
  aren't interested in aligning a car without alignment turnbuckles for =
less=20
  than @ $350.00. That'll keep 'till I get the Kitty back to =
Georgia.</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Tom</DIV>
  <DIV>'67 Mark 2</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></DIV>
  <DIV class=3Dgmail_extra>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV class=3Dgmail_quote>On Wed, May 20, 2015 at 6:41 PM, Gary <SPAN=20
  dir=3Dltr>&lt;<A href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]"=20
  target=3D_blank>[email-masked]</A>&gt;</SPAN> wrote:<BR>
  <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: =
#ccc 1px solid">
    <DIV>
    <DIV>Tom,</DIV>
    <DIV>Interesting... I bought some MGB arms a</DIV>
    <DIV>long time ago.&nbsp; How did you connect them?</DIV>
    <DIV>Gary<BR><BR>Sent from my iPhone</DIV>
    <DIV><BR>On May 19, 2015, at 7:22 AM, Tom Parker via Tigers &lt;<A=20
    href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]"=20
    target=3D_blank>[email-masked]</A>&gt; wrote:<BR><BR></DIV>
    <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite">
      <DIV>
      <DIV dir=3Dltr>MGB steering arms with the stock Tiger rack (since =
Dale no=20
      longer makes the Midget rack kit...) solves a lot of the wheel =
scrub=20
      issues when backing up. The steering's lighter, too, by just a =
bit. DrMayf=20
      wrote (imho) the definitive analysis on Ackerman v Tigers issue. =
The best=20
      we can hope for is a steering angle of&nbsp; about zero degrees =
with the=20
      stock crossmember.=20
      <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
      <DIV>Tom</DIV>
      <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
      <DIV>'67 Mark 2</DIV></DIV>
      <DIV class=3Dgmail_extra>
      <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
      <DIV class=3Dgmail_quote>On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 10:21 PM, Jay =
Laifman via=20
      Tigers <SPAN dir=3Dltr>&lt;<A =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]"=20
      target=3D_blank>[email-masked]</A>&gt;</SPAN> wrote:<BR>
      <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
      style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">
        <DIV dir=3Dltr>Every time I back up a non-Tiger, my =
predispostion to not=20
        going full lock on the Tiger seems to always come through and =
prevents=20
        me from doing it with the non-Tiger too.&nbsp; I get a chuckle =
out of it=20
        each time - but I still can't bring myself to do it!=20
        <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
        <DIV>Just thought I'd share that thought.</DIV><SPAN><FONT=20
color=3D#888888>
        <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
        =
<DIV>Jay</DIV></FONT></SPAN></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQ=
UOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></DIV></DIV>=
</BODY></HTML>

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[email-masked]

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---

From: Tom Witt via Tigers <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 10:57:17 -0700 boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0093_01D093B4.E6F86820"

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No, I=E2=80=99m using the stock Tiger rack, bent arms and all. I just =
did the rack (cut) modification because of the previous =E2=80=98weld =
=E2=80=93on=E2=80=99 repair.  Otherwise I would not have done the =
modification and left it stock.  The arms as mentioned are MGB.  I have =
a Midget rack, but unfortunately I got the newer rack which has the =
smaller diameter rods, not the larger rods of the older rack. Now that =
my son is a machinist I might venture back to considering it. It seems =
the method I intended allowed the rack to sit back a bit deeper in the =
crossmember (which is desirable). The basic plan was to use two midget =
clamps (per side =E2=80=93 front/back) and a short spacer on the back =
side clamp as needed for clearance off the crossmember.  This would =
replace the split aluminum block concept that came with the kits.  This =
discussion came up a number of years ago and I sent someone a quick mock =
up (no spacers). Sorry the images are small, but hopefully you can =
enlarge them in a viewer.

From: Tom Parker=20
Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2015 10:28 AM
To: Tom Witt=20
Subject: Re: [Tigers] Backing up other cars

Tom, Are you using the MG Midget rack? =20

Tom
'67 Mark 2

On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 12:39 PM, Tom Witt via Tigers =
<[email-masked]> wrote:

  Notes on the images:  I do not have the clamps on the split tube at =
this time, for the record I plan on having two clamps per side. Parts =
for the modification. Buried Tiger (will it EVER see the road in y =
lifetime???).

  From: Gary via Tigers=20

  Sent from my iPhone

  On May 20, 2015, at 6:31 PM, Tom Parker <[email-masked]> =
wrote:

    Hi Gary, and Buck,=20

    What the arms do is what we both said earlier: the make the steering =
a bit easier, and they reduce the tire scrub a bit. That's all.  The MGB =
arms are about an inch longer than the stock Tiger arms. It's about as =
far as you can go, and it requires 15" or larger wheels.

    Tom
    '67 Mark 2

    On Wed, May 20, 2015 at 6:41 PM, Gary <[email-masked]> =
wrote:

      Tom,

      Sent from my iPhone

        MGB steering arms with the stock Tiger rack (since Dale no =
longer makes the Midget rack kit...) solves a lot of the wheel scrub =
issues when backing up. The steering's lighter, too, by just a bit. =
DrMayf wrote (imho) the definitive analysis on Ackerman v Tigers issue. =
The best we can hope for is a steering angle of  about zero degrees with =
the stock crossmember.=20

        Tom

        '67 Mark 2

          Every time I back up a non-Tiger, my predispostion to not =
going full lock on the Tiger seems to always come through and prevents =
me from doing it with the non-Tiger too.  I get a chuckle out of it each =
time - but I still can't bring myself to do it!=20

          Jay
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<HTML><HEAD></HEAD>
<BODY dir=3Dltr>
<DIV dir=3Dltr>
<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000">
<DIV>No, I=E2=80=99m using the stock Tiger rack, bent arms and all. I =
just did the rack=20
(cut) modification because of the previous =E2=80=98weld =
=E2=80=93on=E2=80=99 repair.&nbsp; Otherwise I=20
would not have done the modification and left it stock.&nbsp; The arms =
as=20
mentioned are MGB.&nbsp; I have a Midget rack, but unfortunately I got =
the newer=20
rack which has the smaller diameter rods, not the larger rods of the =
older rack.=20
Now that my son is a machinist I might venture back to considering it. =
It seems=20
the method I intended allowed the rack to sit back a bit deeper in the=20
crossmember (which is desirable). The basic plan was to use two midget =
clamps=20
(per side =E2=80=93 front/back) and a short spacer on the back side =
clamp as needed for=20
clearance off the crossmember.&nbsp; This would replace the split =
aluminum block=20
concept that came with the kits.&nbsp; This discussion came up a number =
of years=20
ago and I sent someone a quick mock up (no spacers). Sorry the images =
are small,=20
but hopefully you can enlarge them in a viewer.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D'FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: =
"Calibri"; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; =
DISPLAY: inline'><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=[email-masked] =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">Tom=20
Parker</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt tahoma">
<DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, May 21, 2015 10:28 AM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=[email-masked]=20
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">Tom Witt</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Tigers] Backing up other =
cars</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D'FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: =
"Calibri"; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; =
DISPLAY: inline'>
<DIV dir=3Dltr>Tom, Are you using the MG Midget rack?&nbsp;=20
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Tom</DIV>
<DIV>'67 Mark 2</DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=3Dgmail_extra>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV class=3Dgmail_quote>On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 12:39 PM, Tom Witt via =
Tigers=20
<SPAN dir=3Dltr>&lt;<A href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]"=20
target=3D_blank>[email-masked]</A>&gt;</SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc =
1px solid">
  <DIV dir=3Dltr>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: =
#000000">
  <DIV>I have the MGB arms on my Tiger.&nbsp; They require about a =
1/2=E2=80=9D spacer=20
  on the front bolt to fill in a gap between the arm and the spindle. =
The two=20
  bolt holes do not align perfectly. You need to file or mill out one of =
the=20
  holes a small amount as I believe the spacing is too large on the MGB =
arm. If=20
  you are searching for every bit of help you can get, my recollection =
is that=20
  the front hole is filed towards the rear and that positions the arm =
about a=20
  1/16=E2=80=9D-1/8=E2=80=9D more forward, rather than =
1/16=E2=80=9D-1/8=E2=80=9D more rearward if you file the=20
  rear hole.&nbsp; I did this over 10 years ago so check by observation =
for=20
  which hole to file, but the goal is to get the arm as far forward as =
possible.=20
  The backing plate/shield needs a notch about 1=E2=80=9D high and about =
1/2=E2=80=9D deep as=20
  the arm positions in its path and you need the room for the tie rod =
end.&nbsp;=20
  For the record I have 13=E2=80=9D Cosmic wheels (like those on the =
Harrington Tiger)=20
  and they clear this modification though I believe I have about a =
1/4=E2=80=9D spacer=20
  under the wheel. Sorry for the vagueness but my car has been on jack =
stands=20
  for 15 years now and is currently buried in wood for my daughters Tiny =

  House.</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Regarding rack modification; my rack apparently had one of the =
ends=20
  damaged at some time in its life. Someone did a hack repair by simply =
welding=20
  on an Alpine section. A very dubious repair.&nbsp; Some here were =
horrified=20
  when I shortened both rack ends and then cut threads with a die (left =
and=20
  right threads) as the original threads are rolled. The die was =
somewhat=20
  adjustable and I made light cuts after the initial cut. I constantly =
back cut=20
  after a few degrees of rotation of the die. I then lightly chased the =
threads=20
  with a fine file and did everything I could to remove burrs, tears, =
etc.. I=20
  did the threads likewise with a grade 8 bolt which attached to the tie =
rod=20
  end. To couple the two together I used the split tube and clamp that =
just=20
  about every American car had before struts became popular. They needed =
to be=20
  as short as possible and 70=E2=80=99s era AMC tubes (Hornet I recall) =
were used.&nbsp;=20
  Both the adjustable die and the split tube/clamps were helpful because =
the=20
  diameter of the rack is not consistent. It allows for the incremental=20
  adjustment people desire and frankly I feel a whole lot more =
comfortable with=20
  this than a welded on Alpine piece.&nbsp; That said, it would be =
something=20
  that one does at their own risk.&nbsp; I don=E2=80=99t advise cutting =
up a stock rack,=20
  but in my case it seemed irrelevant.</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Notes on the images:&nbsp; I do not have the clamps on the split =
tube at=20
  this time, for the record I plan on having two clamps per side. Parts =
for the=20
  modification. Buried Tiger (will it EVER see the road in y =
lifetime???).</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D'FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: =
"Calibri"; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; =
DISPLAY: inline'>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt tahoma">
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
  <DIV><B>From:</B> <A title=[email-masked]=20
  href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D_blank>Gary via =
Tigers</A> </DIV>
  <DIV><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, May 20, 2015 7:08 PM</DIV>
  <DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=[email-masked]=20
  href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D_blank>Tom Parker</A> =
</DIV>
  <DIV><B>Cc:</B> <A title=[email-masked]=20
  href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D_blank>Tiger's Den</A> =
</DIV>
  <DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Tigers] Backing up other =
cars</DIV></DIV></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D'FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: =
"Calibri"; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; =
DISPLAY: inline'>
  <DIV>Thanks Tom, but I knew all that..</DIV>
  <DIV>What I was wondering was what tie rod ends</DIV>
  <DIV>or machining on the steering arms did you</DIV>
  <DIV>have to do?&nbsp;&nbsp; The Alpine arms are slightly</DIV>
  <DIV>longer than the MGB arms and should help</DIV>
  <DIV>even more,&nbsp; that was part of Doane's race</DIV>
  <DIV>mods IIRC.&nbsp; I haven' t heard of anyone else</DIV>
  <DIV>using the stock rack like you.&nbsp; Did you have</DIV>
  <DIV>to "unbend" the rack arms and did you make</DIV>
  <DIV>sure you didn't run out of rack ball joint</DIV>
  <DIV>travel?&nbsp; You should be able to do your own</DIV>
  <DIV>precision alignment using the "strings"</DIV>
  <DIV>method, I do.</DIV>
  <DIV>Gary</DIV>
  <DIV><BR><BR>Sent from my iPhone</DIV>
  <DIV><BR>On May 20, 2015, at 6:31 PM, Tom Parker &lt;<A=20
  href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]"=20
  target=3D_blank>[email-masked]</A>&gt; wrote:<BR><BR></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite">
    <DIV>
    <DIV dir=3Dltr>Hi Gary, and Buck,=20
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>First, Buck's right, and I think I implied that. The MGB arms =
DO NOT=20
    fix the Ackerman Angle issue in the Tiger. "The best we can hope for =
is a=20
    steering angle of&nbsp; about zero degrees with the stock=20
    crossmember."&nbsp; The issue is the MGA rack George fitted to the =
Alpine=20
    crossmember is way too far forward, and it isn't possible to get =
close to a=20
    proper Ackerman Angle. It isn't, imho, a problem with the rack, it's =
with=20
    the mounting position. For about $10,000 Dale can "fix" the problem =
by=20
    constructing a new crossmember with the rack in a straight line with =
the=20
    steering arms. Is it that simple? No, and I won't begin to try to =
understand=20
    the math involved. See DrMayf's article.</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>What the arms do is what we both said earlier: the make the =
steering a=20
    bit easier, and they reduce the tire scrub a bit. That's all.&nbsp; =
The MGB=20
    arms are about an inch longer than the stock Tiger arms. It's about =
as far=20
    as you can go, and it requires 15" or larger wheels.</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>There are a few "solutions to the problem. I know the =
redesigned=20
    crossmember works, and I'be seen Alpine spindles reversed (swapped =
side to=20
    side) with Alpine steering arms to the front, but I don't know how =
close it=20
    comes to solving anything. And I don't know if that "fix" works with =
the=20
    Tiger rack.</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>Now to the MGB steering arms: Randy Willett (<A=20
    href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
target=3D_blank>[email-masked]</A>) did=20
    the modification. It involved elongating the center mounting hole a =
bit and=20
    adding a spacer to align the arm "parallel" (more or less) to the =
spindle. I=20
    torqued it down to Tiger specs, Randy argued for a bit more torque. =
He=20
    supplied grade 8 bolts. There's maybe an inch of thread left at the =
tie rod=20
    ends, and less than an inch clearance to the inside of the wheel. =
I'm not=20
    going to race the car, street or otherwise. The MGB "solution" =
helps, and=20
    that's all I was looking for. I knew up front it wasn't a =
"fix."</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>So... a bit easier (lighter) steering, not as much scrub. With =
@ 0" toe=20
    the steering is quite sensitive. I used a Toe Alignment Bar; it's =
close to=20
    zero toe. How close? I dunno; that takes an alignment rack and the =
local=20
    guys aren't interested in aligning a car without alignment =
turnbuckles for=20
    less than @ $350.00. That'll keep 'till I get the Kitty back to=20
    Georgia.</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>Tom</DIV>
    <DIV>'67 Mark 2</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></DIV>
    <DIV class=3Dgmail_extra>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV class=3Dgmail_quote>On Wed, May 20, 2015 at 6:41 PM, Gary <SPAN =

      <DIV><BR>On May 19, 2015, at 7:22 AM, Tom Parker via Tigers &lt;<A =

      href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]"=20
      target=3D_blank>[email-masked]</A>&gt; wrote:<BR><BR></DIV>
      <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite">
        <DIV>
        <DIV dir=3Dltr>MGB steering arms with the stock Tiger rack =
(since Dale no=20
        longer makes the Midget rack kit...) solves a lot of the wheel =
scrub=20
        issues when backing up. The steering's lighter, too, by just a =
bit.=20
        DrMayf wrote (imho) the definitive analysis on Ackerman v Tigers =
issue.=20
        The best we can hope for is a steering angle of&nbsp; about zero =
degrees=20
        with the stock crossmember.=20
        <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
        <DIV>Tom</DIV>
        <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
        <DIV>'67 Mark 2</DIV></DIV>
        <DIV class=3Dgmail_extra>
        <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
        <DIV class=3Dgmail_quote>On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 10:21 PM, Jay =
Laifman via=20
        Tigers <SPAN dir=3Dltr>&lt;<A =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]"=20
        target=3D_blank>[email-masked]</A>&gt;</SPAN> wrote:<BR>
        <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
        style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; =
BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">
          <DIV dir=3Dltr>Every time I back up a non-Tiger, my =
predispostion to not=20
          going full lock on the Tiger seems to always come through and =
prevents=20
          me from doing it with the non-Tiger too.&nbsp; I get a chuckle =
out of=20
          it each time - but I still can't bring myself to do it!=20
          <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
          <DIV>Just thought I'd share that thought.</DIV><SPAN><FONT=20
          color=3D#888888>
          <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
          =
<DIV>Jay</DIV></FONT></SPAN></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQ=
UOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></DIV></DIV>=
</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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[email-masked]

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---

From: Gary Winblad via Tigers <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 20:34:33 +0000 (UTC)

Interesting stuff!

What are those "anti rotate" pieces?
Gary

----- Original Message -----
From: Tom Witt via Tigers <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Sent: Thu, 21 May 2015 16:39:19 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: Re: [Tigers] Backing up other cars

I have the MGB arms on my Tiger.  They require about a 1/2” spacer on the front bolt to fill in a gap between the arm and the spindle. The two bolt holes do not align perfectly. You need to file or mill out one of the holes a small amount as I believe the spacing is too large on the MGB arm. If you are searching for every bit of help you can get, my recollection is that the front hole is filed towards the rear and that positions the arm about a 1/16”-1/8” more forward, rather than 1/16”-1/8” more rearward if you file the rear hole.  I did this over 10 years ago so check by observation for which hole to file, but the goal is to get the arm as far forward as possible. The backing plate/shield needs a notch about 1” high and about 1/2” deep as the arm positions in its path and you need the room for the tie rod end.  For the record I have 13” Cosmic wheels (like those on the Harrington Tiger) and they clear this modification though I believe I have about a 1/4” spacer under the wheel. Sorry for the vagueness but my car has been on jack stands for 15 years now and is currently buried in wood for my daughters Tiny House.

Regarding rack modification; my rack apparently had one of the ends damaged at some time in its life. Someone did a hack repair by simply welding on an Alpine section. A very dubious repair.  Some here were horrified when I shortened both rack ends and then cut threads with a die (left and right threads) as the original threads are rolled. The die was somewhat adjustable and I made light cuts after the initial cut. I constantly back cut after a few degrees of rotation of the die. I then lightly chased the threads with a fine file and did everything I could to remove burrs, tears, etc.. I did the threads likewise with a grade 8 bolt which attached to the tie rod end. To couple the two together I used the split tube and clamp that just about every American car had before struts became popular. They needed to be as short as possible and 70’s era AMC tubes (Hornet I recall) were used.  Both the adjustable die and the split tube/clamps were helpful because the diameter of the rack is not consistent. It allows for the incremental adjustment people desire and frankly I feel a whole lot more comfortable with this than a welded on Alpine piece.  That said, it would be something that one does at their own risk.  I don’t advise cutting up a stock rack, but in my case it seemed irrelevant.

Notes on the images:  I do not have the clamps on the split tube at this time, for the record I plan on having two clamps per side. Parts for the modification. Buried Tiger (will it EVER see the road in y lifetime???).

From: Gary via Tigers 
To: Tom Parker 
Cc: Tiger's Den 

Sent from my iPhone

  Hi Gary, and Buck, 

  First, Buck's right, and I think I implied that. The MGB arms DO NOT fix the Ackerman Angle issue in the Tiger. "The best we can hope for is a steering angle of  about zero degrees with the stock crossmember."  The issue is the MGA rack George fitted to the Alpine crossmember is way too far forward, and it isn't possible to get close to a proper Ackerman Angle. It isn't, imho, a problem with the rack, it's with the mounting position. For about $10,000 Dale can "fix" the problem by constructing a new crossmember with the rack in a straight line with the steering arms. Is it that simple? No, and I won't begin to try to understand the math involved. See DrMayf's article.

  What the arms do is what we both said earlier: the make the steering a bit easier, and they reduce the tire scrub a bit. That's all.  The MGB arms are about an inch longer than the stock Tiger arms. It's about as far as you can go, and it requires 15" or larger wheels.

  There are a few "solutions to the problem. I know the redesigned crossmember works, and I'be seen Alpine spindles reversed (swapped side to side) with Alpine steering arms to the front, but I don't know how close it comes to solving anything. And I don't know if that "fix" works with the Tiger rack.

  Now to the MGB steering arms: Randy Willett ([email-masked]) did the modification. It involved elongating the center mounting hole a bit and adding a spacer to align the arm "parallel" (more or less) to the spindle. I torqued it down to Tiger specs, Randy argued for a bit more torque. He supplied grade 8 bolts. There's maybe an inch of thread left at the tie rod ends, and less than an inch clearance to the inside of the wheel. I'm not going to race the car, street or otherwise. The MGB "solution" helps, and that's all I was looking for. I knew up front it wasn't a "fix."

  So... a bit easier (lighter) steering, not as much scrub. With @ 0" toe the steering is quite sensitive. I used a Toe Alignment Bar; it's close to zero toe. How close? I dunno; that takes an alignment rack and the local guys aren't interested in aligning a car without alignment turnbuckles for less than @ $350.00. That'll keep 'till I get the Kitty back to Georgia.

  Tom
  '67 Mark 2

    Tom,

    Sent from my iPhone

    On May 19, 2015, at 7:22 AM, Tom Parker via Tigers <[email-masked]> wrote:

      MGB steering arms with the stock Tiger rack (since Dale no longer makes the Midget rack kit...) solves a lot of the wheel scrub issues when backing up. The steering's lighter, too, by just a bit. DrMayf wrote (imho) the definitive analysis on Ackerman v Tigers issue. The best we can hope for is a steering angle of  about zero degrees with the stock crossmember. 

      Tom

      '67 Mark 2

      On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 10:21 PM, Jay Laifman via Tigers <[email-masked]> wrote:

        Every time I back up a non-Tiger, my predispostion to not going full lock on the Tiger seems to always come through and prevents me from doing it with the non-Tiger too.  I get a chuckle out of it each time - but I still can't bring myself to do it! 

        Jay

[email-masked]

---

From: Tom Witt via Tigers <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 14:24:08 -0700

--Boundary_(ID_CTHH9ABYlazu3+wdKwE8oQ)
Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT

I did the fulcrum pin reinforcement on the cross member.  The concept 
originated from John Logan and I did an adaptation of it 
http://www.tigersunited.com/techtips/LoganFulcrum/pt-LoganFulcrum1.asp. The 
reinforcement basically parallels the fulcrum pin and at the outer pin 
attachment point serves as a more rigid support to side forces. However, if 
the pin still broke the anti rotate can help to (notice I didn't say would) 
keep the bracing plates from rotating. The anti rotate piece fits snugly at 
a 90 degree angle to the square brace. It is also helpful in that it 
occupies space and should a pin still break, the A-arm has less distance to 
travel - if forces are moving it in that direction. If you look at the full 
shot of the car and zoom in on the cross member you can see the bracing 
plates.  The added steel in the cross member "U" (cross member on blue tarp) 
was a reinforcement recommended by John Crawley.

Today most people seem to opt for removing the center steel piece from the 
urethane bushings and using the thicker fulcrum pins that are available. 
But, before that came about the above was a method of reinforcement.

BTW, I have the fulcrum pins Derek White had made in Africa (the stock 
diameter version). I know about 20 or so people got them. Most I believe 
were the larger diameter version.  Some were predicting doom & gloom with 
their use.  It has been well over 10+ years now. I was wondering if anyone 
ever had a failure?

-----Original Message----- 
From: Gary Winblad
Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2015 1:34 PM
To: Tom Witt
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Tigers] Backing up other cars

Interesting stuff!

----- Original Message -----
From: Tom Witt via Tigers <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Sent: Thu, 21 May 2015 16:39:19 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: Re: [Tigers] Backing up other cars

I have the MGB arms on my Tiger.  They require about a 1/2” spacer on the 
front bolt to fill in a gap between the arm and the spindle. The two bolt 
holes do not align perfectly. You need to file or mill out one of the holes 
a small amount as I believe the spacing is too large on the MGB arm. If you 
are searching for every bit of help you can get, my recollection is that the 
front hole is filed towards the rear and that positions the arm about a 
 1/16”-1/8” more forward, rather than 1/16”-1/8” more rearward if you file 
the rear hole.  I did this over 10 years ago so check by observation for 
which hole to file, but the goal is to get the arm as far forward as 
possible. The backing plate/shield needs a notch about 1” high and about 
 1/2” deep as the arm positions in its path and you need the room for the 
tie rod end.  For the record I have 13” Cosmic wheels (like those on the 
Harrington Tiger) and they clear this modification though I believe I have 
about a 1/4” spacer under the wheel. Sorry for the vagueness but my car has 
been on jack stands for 15 years now and is currently buried in wood for my 
daughters Tiny House.

Regarding rack modification; my rack apparently had one of the ends damaged 
at some time in its life. Someone did a hack repair by simply welding on an 
Alpine section. A very dubious repair.  Some here were horrified when I 
shortened both rack ends and then cut threads with a die (left and right 
threads) as the original threads are rolled. The die was somewhat adjustable 
and I made light cuts after the initial cut. I constantly back cut after a 
few degrees of rotation of the die. I then lightly chased the threads with a 
fine file and did everything I could to remove burrs, tears, etc.. I did the 
threads likewise with a grade 8 bolt which attached to the tie rod end. To 
couple the two together I used the split tube and clamp that just about 
every American car had before struts became popular. They needed to be as 
short as possible and 70’s era AMC tubes (Hornet I recall) were used.  Both 
the adjustable die and the split tube/clamps were helpful because the 
diameter of the rack is not consistent. It allows for the incremental 
adjustment people desire and frankly I feel a whole lot more comfortable 
with this than a welded on Alpine piece.  That said, it would be something 
that one does at their own risk.  I don’t advise cutting up a stock rack, 
but in my case it seemed irrelevant.

Notes on the images:  I do not have the clamps on the split tube at this 
time, for the record I plan on having two clamps per side. Parts for the 
modification. Buried Tiger (will it EVER see the road in y lifetime???).

From: Gary via Tigers

Sent from my iPhone

  Hi Gary, and Buck,

  First, Buck's right, and I think I implied that. The MGB arms DO NOT fix 
the Ackerman Angle issue in the Tiger. "The best we can hope for is a 
steering angle of  about zero degrees with the stock crossmember."  The 
issue is the MGA rack George fitted to the Alpine crossmember is way too far 
forward, and it isn't possible to get close to a proper Ackerman Angle. It 
isn't, imho, a problem with the rack, it's with the mounting position. For 
about $10,000 Dale can "fix" the problem by constructing a new crossmember 
with the rack in a straight line with the steering arms. Is it that simple? 
No, and I won't begin to try to understand the math involved. See DrMayf's 
article.

  What the arms do is what we both said earlier: the make the steering a bit 
easier, and they reduce the tire scrub a bit. That's all.  The MGB arms are 
about an inch longer than the stock Tiger arms. It's about as far as you can 
go, and it requires 15" or larger wheels.

  There are a few "solutions to the problem. I know the redesigned 
crossmember works, and I'be seen Alpine spindles reversed (swapped side to 
side) with Alpine steering arms to the front, but I don't know how close it 
comes to solving anything. And I don't know if that "fix" works with the 
Tiger rack.

  Now to the MGB steering arms: Randy Willett ([email-masked]) did the 
modification. It involved elongating the center mounting hole a bit and 
adding a spacer to align the arm "parallel" (more or less) to the spindle. I 
torqued it down to Tiger specs, Randy argued for a bit more torque. He 
supplied grade 8 bolts. There's maybe an inch of thread left at the tie rod 
ends, and less than an inch clearance to the inside of the wheel. I'm not 
going to race the car, street or otherwise. The MGB "solution" helps, and 
that's all I was looking for. I knew up front it wasn't a "fix."

  So... a bit easier (lighter) steering, not as much scrub. With @ 0" toe 
the steering is quite sensitive. I used a Toe Alignment Bar; it's close to 
zero toe. How close? I dunno; that takes an alignment rack and the local 
guys aren't interested in aligning a car without alignment turnbuckles for 
less than @ $350.00. That'll keep 'till I get the Kitty back to Georgia.

  Tom
  '67 Mark 2

    Tom,

    Sent from my iPhone

    On May 19, 2015, at 7:22 AM, Tom Parker via Tigers 
<[email-masked]> wrote:

      MGB steering arms with the stock Tiger rack (since Dale no longer 
makes the Midget rack kit...) solves a lot of the wheel scrub issues when 
backing up. The steering's lighter, too, by just a bit. DrMayf wrote (imho) 
the definitive analysis on Ackerman v Tigers issue. The best we can hope for 
is a steering angle of  about zero degrees with the stock crossmember.

      Tom

      '67 Mark 2

      On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 10:21 PM, Jay Laifman via Tigers 
<[email-masked]> wrote:

        Every time I back up a non-Tiger, my predispostion to not going full 
lock on the Tiger seems to always come through and prevents me from doing it 
with the non-Tiger too.  I get a chuckle out of it each time - but I still 
can't bring myself to do it!

        Jay 

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[email-masked]

--Boundary_(ID_CTHH9ABYlazu3+wdKwE8oQ)--