Subject: [Tigers] TOTALLY RESTORED

From: "Norman C. Miller" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 19:06:00 -0700

Would you pay $63,000 for a Tiger with this chassis plate?

https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=b63ea59c60ac1d44#cid=B63EA59C60AC1D44&id=B63EA59C60AC1D44%21384

Norm
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From: "awtiger" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 23:21:18 -0500

Oops...looks like someone may end up with a serious case of buyer's 
remorse...

Andy Walker
Edmond, OK
B382001600LRXFE
TAC #740

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Norman C. Miller" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2012 9:06 PM
Subject: [Tigers] TOTALLY RESTORED

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From: michael king <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 17 May 2012 14:27:37 +1000

No wonder it sold for so much!

Rootes went to the trouble that day to not only align all the VIN and
engine numbers but even engraved the tag data instead of printing it on so
that it just scratches off....

The irony about tigers.. the better the workmanship (ie smoother welding,
better alignment more acruate the detailing).. the less likely that it's
original  :-P

That said, it is nice that the marque is being appreciated... i just wonder
if the sale is legit.. so many times they sell at these auctions.. then
appear the following week on ebay for less.

On 17 May 2012 12:06, Norman C. Miller <[email-masked]> wrote:

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> Norm
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-- 
Regards

Michael King

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From: michael king <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 17 May 2012 18:10:26 +1000

In all seriousness,

the car is very straight and presentable.. but.. we get back to the old
thing about details... for this money have no issues with a few upgraded
parts.. but simple things that are wrong just shouldn't be..

Has aluminium radiator, later edelbrock alloy manifold and 4bbl.. not
original.. but all good upgrades if you are ok with them.. wooden wheel is
aftermarket.. thats a personal choice..

on the down side..

Missing tiger air cleaner housing, radiator shroud, correct heater valve,
interior door handles are wrong, missing plastic caps on the seat
back adjuster, seems to have a seam down the carpet on the trans tunnel,
has no sunbeam lettering on the front (it's a MKI) bonnet (hood) latch is
painted body colour, JAL tag is not painted  .. all small detail things..
and some larger issues..

the missing VIn is a concern... all up.. superficially the car is nice..
but the Vin is a concern and why so many small things that should be right
aren't makes me wonder who is buying the cars at auction.. they always go
high $ but there are cars out there that  are better that are selling for
much less.

If the sale is real.. all i have to say is.. if you have a nice tiger..
dont sell it on ebay or the forums.. send it to auction!

On 17 May 2012 14:21, awtiger <[email-masked]> wrote:

> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Norman C. Miller" <
> [email-masked]>
>> options/tigers/[email-masked]<http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/[email-masked]>
>>

-- 
Regards

Michael King

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---

From: Cullen McCann <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 17 May 2012 07:02:03 -0500

Sorry guys, I'm still not completely following what's being said here. Can
someone please clarify for me?
I realize that the Vin tag is a reproduction, and I understand that that is
never good, especially in tiger, but are we also saying that this tiger is not
authentic? People on the list go around and around about originality.
regardless of what people state in discussions, the preference on originality
or the pursuit of a perfect restoration is purely a matter of opinion. Many
people on this list have mildly modified tigers, with such equipment as
radiators, custom steering wheels, chrome headlight rings, engine dress-up
kits or rims. As we all know, modifications don't make a tiger less authentic,
they just make it less original, and arguably less valuable.

While I would completely avoid a tiger with a reproduction vin plate because
of it's obvious tainted nature in the eyes of the community, is this car an
Alger?

Thanks, Cullen
Alpine 260

Sent from my iPad

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From: Allan Ballard <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 17 May 2012 10:48:30 -0400

Bill is experiencing difficulties posting to the list. The following is posted
on his account.

Allan Ballard
Mk1a

++++++++++

From: Bulpitt, Bill
Sent: Monday, May 14, 2012 10:37 AM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: My Shelby Story

In 1991 I drove my 66 Tiger up to Road Atlanta on a Saturday morning to watch
the SCCA Runoffs.  One of the first people I ran into was Gene Boone who was a
force in the local SAAC club and a fellow Tiger owner.  He told me, You have
to be here tomorrow, THE MAN (Shelby) will be driving the pace laps before the
races start, and all vehicles with a Shelby connection are welcome.  Needless
to say, I was back on Sunday morning, and showed up on the false grid at the
Road Atlanta front straightaway for the pace laps.

No sooner had I pulled into position when I spotted a golf cart coming up
behind me.  It was Shelby himself, sporting a Viper hat.  He pulled up next to
me almost nose-to-nose and asked, Youre going to be in the pace lap, arent
you?  I quickly replied, Yes, Sir. He then said, Of all the cars I worked
on, I liked these the best.  I cant remember what my befuddled response was,
but he waved and moved on down the line.  Later, after the laps (which
consisted of Shelby driving Gordon Stennis 289 Cobra, 28 Shelby Mustangs, and
me) we all assembled in the infield and he signed all the cars (mine under the
trunk lid).  Reflecting on what he said later, he probably didnt really mean
Tigers were his favorites (he was a salesman, after all) but it cost him
nothing and made me feel like a million bucks.

All in all, a memorable and wonderful day

Bill Bulpitt
William S. Bulpitt, P.E.
Principal Mechanical Engineer
URS Corporation
1000 Abernathy Road, NE, Suite 900
Atlanta, GA 30328
Tel: 678-808-8827
Cell: 404-387-6982, 770-329-5263
[email-masked]
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From: Gary Winblad <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 17 May 2012 18:28:55 +0000 (UTC)

>Reflecting on what he said later, he probably didnt really mean

yeah, he WAS a salesman.  But I wouldn't discount what he said.
My story about Shel was at a Shelby/Tiger club race day at Willow Springs in
'bout 1992-1994(?).   I was looking at a ratty old Tiger (on a trailer cuz...) with
a for sale sign when he walked up.  I  filmed with my old cam-corder for what
seemed like an hour as he asked the owner very specific questions (how much
bondo, rust, etc.) and I was convinced that HE was really interested in buying
the "beautiful Tiger"..   I think I have it on an old VCR tape somewhere..

Gary

----- Original Message -----
From: Allan Ballard <[email-masked]>
To: Tiger List <[email-masked]>
Sent: Thu, 17 May 2012 14:48:30 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Tigers] Shelby story

Allan Ballard
Mk1a

++++++++++

From: Bulpitt, Bill

Bill Bulpitt
William S. Bulpitt, P.E.

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From: "Dave Munroe" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 17 May 2012 15:37:50 -0300

Hi Norm:

This is an important point - why WOULD any knowledgeable person pay this 
much money for this VIN plate with a Tiger (?) attached? The key word here 
is "knowledgeable".

I was not "Tiger knowledgeable" when I bought my car in 2002, and didn't 
know the importance of a correct, in position with the right rivets, VIN 
plate, to its provenance. My bad, even stupid, I accept.

However, over time, and with the help of the intelligence available from the 
members of this list, and with the help of an expensive eBay copy of the 
"Book of Norman", I became much more aware of this detail. I also became 
convinced of the authenticity of my particular Tiger.

This was confirmed when I had my car TAC'd at the TE/AE Annual gathering in 
Rockland, Maine in 2010. A gang of five inspectors swarmed over, under, 
inside and around my car for the better part of an hour, and became 
convinced of my car's origin as a Tiger from the Jenson plant. It passed, 
without a VIN plate.

I also had the interesting opportunity at that time to meet the person who 
"restored" my Tiger back in 1986-88 for the previous owner, and asked him 
about the missing VIN plate. I got a shrug and a question mark hanging over 
his head. I wonder where it went??

So here I am with a TAC'd Tiger and no VIN plate. What are my options?

1/ Make a replacement as authentic as possible and hope no one notices. (Bad 
idea because it has as its basis an attempt to deceive the observer. 
Discovery leads to suspicion that the car is a fake.)
2/ Leave it off and explain the circumstances to a prospective buyer. (Good 
option but guaranteed to reduce the value of your car to a knowledgeable 
potential buyer.)
3/ Make a nice but obvious replacement that will also trigger some doubt as 
to the authenticity of the car to a potential buyer, but leaves you with the 
opportunity to explain its presence.)

The obvious lesson here is that if you have a Tiger without an authentic VIN 
plate, your car is worth less than if it had one, regardless of its 
condition. Know this if you are buying and negotiate the price accordingly. 
Know this also if you are selling and react according to your conscience. If 
you believe "caveat emptor", and can sleep at night after deceiving an 
unsuspecting buyer with a fake VIN plate, good luck to you. If not, bite the 
bullet and do the right thing.

Dave

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Norman C. Miller" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2012 11:06 PM
Subject: [Tigers] TOTALLY RESTORED

> Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/[email-masked]

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From: Peter Laurinaitis <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 17 May 2012 20:22:21 -0400

folks pay millions for a ferrari that started as not more than a rolling
frame, with every single inch of sheet metal newly fabricated...

> Would you pay $63,000 for a Tiger with this chassis plate?
https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=b63ea59c60ac1d44#cid=B63EA59C60AC1D44&id=B63EA
59C60AC1D44%21384
> Norm
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/[email-masked]
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From: Tony Somebody <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 18 May 2012 04:04:52 -0700 (PDT)

Norm- whats your response (answer) as I and others are interested as well?
Tell us all as I have kind of an idea BUT you are our uneleected- sorta self
appointed Mr. Sunbeam Tiger person amonget anyone to ask a question of. 
Thanks and with respect.
Tony Lang (TtT)

--- On Thu, 5/17/12, Dave Munroe <[email-masked]> wrote:

From: Dave Munroe <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [Tigers] TOTALLY RESTORED
To: [email-masked], "Norman C. Miller" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thursday, May 17, 2012, 1:37 PM

Hi Norm:

This is an important point - why WOULD any knowledgeable person pay this much
money for this VIN plate with a Tiger (?) attached? The key word here is
"knowledgeable".

I was not "Tiger knowledgeable" when I bought my car in 2002, and didn't know
the importance of a correct, in position with the right rivets, VIN plate, to
its provenance. My bad, even stupid, I accept.

However, over time, and with the help of the intelligence available from the
members of this list, and with the help of an expensive eBay copy of the "Book
of Norman", I became much more aware of this detail. I also became convinced
of the authenticity of my particular Tiger.

This was confirmed when I had my car TAC'd at the TE/AE Annual gathering in
Rockland, Maine in 2010. A gang of five inspectors swarmed over, under, inside
and around my car for the better part of an hour, and became convinced of my
car's origin as a Tiger from the Jenson plant. It passed, without a VIN
plate.

1/ Make a replacement as authentic as possible and hope no one notices. (Bad
idea because it has as its basis an attempt to deceive the observer. Discovery
leads to suspicion that the car is a fake.)
2/ Leave it off and explain the circumstances to a prospective buyer. (Good
option but guaranteed to reduce the value of your car to a knowledgeable
potential buyer.)
3/ Make a nice but obvious replacement that will also trigger some doubt as to
the authenticity of the car to a potential buyer, but leaves you with the
opportunity to explain its presence.)

The obvious lesson here is that if you have a Tiger without an authentic VIN
plate, your car is worth less than if it had one, regardless of its condition.
Know this if you are buying and negotiate the price accordingly. Know this
also if you are selling and react according to your conscience. If you believe
"caveat emptor", and can sleep at night after deceiving an unsuspecting buyer
with a fake VIN plate, good luck to you. If not, bite the bullet and do the
right thing.

Dave

----- Original Message ----- From: "Norman C. Miller" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2012 11:06 PM
Subject: [Tigers] TOTALLY RESTORED

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From: Peter Laurinaitis <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 20 May 2012 17:20:51 -0400

if one "dips" their body to restore their tiger (some my say one of the two
best ways to strip it right before a proper restoration), the vin plate must
come off, so in that instance you wont have the "correct" rivets, so
personally if i have to choose a half-assed restoration with original rivets,
or a proper restoration with the vin plate re-riveted, id choose the later,
but just a personal view (as long as i was otherwise confident it was a
tiger).

> This is an important point - why WOULD any knowledgeable person pay this
much
> I was not "Tiger knowledgeable" when I bought my car in 2002, and didn't
know
> members of this list, and with the help of an expensive eBay copy of the
"Book
> Rockland, Maine in 2010. A gang of five inspectors swarmed over, under,
inside
> idea because it has as its basis an attempt to deceive the observer.
Discovery
> 3/ Make a nice but obvious replacement that will also trigger some doubt as
to
> plate, your car is worth less than if it had one, regardless of its
condition.

[email-masked]