Subject: Re: [Spridgets] Brake Bleed

From: Rick Fisk via Spridgets <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2022 18:47:45 -0500

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Sorry Mike, when I mentioned hoses I was giving Daniel a little prod.  Last y=
ear he mentioned getting another run of silicone radiator hoses made up and I=
 could use another set.  The people that make them have had issues with the v=
irus and running a little behind.

Rick

> On Jan 16, 2022, at 5:14 PM, Michael MacLean <[email-masked]> w=
rote:
>=20
> =EF=BB=BF
> New stainless steel braided hoses on the calipers.  Same old 20 year old h=
ose in the rear.  Something to think about I guess.
> Mike M
>=20
>> On Sun, Jan 16, 2022, 1:48 PM Rick Fisk via Spridgets <[email-masked]=
am.net> wrote:
>> Daniel - think hoses.  =F0=9F=98=81
>>=20
>>>> On Jan 16, 2022, at 4:46 PM, Rick Fisk <[email-masked]> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>> =EF=BB=BF
>>> In my experience the usual cause is rear brakes not adjusted tight enoug=
h.  The first press of the pedal moves the shoes away from their resting pos=
ition, but not all the way to the drum.   A quick second press of the pedal m=
oves them even further.  A quick third press of the pedal may put the shoes i=
n contact with the drum and the pedal feels hard.  Release the pedal and the=
 shoes move all the way back to their initial resting position and you start=
 all over again when you want to use the brakes.  No air in the system and t=
he pedal feels great once you get the shoes all the way out to the drum.
>>>=20
>>> Rick
>>>=20
>>>>> On Jan 16, 2022, at 4:32 PM, Weslake1330 via Spridgets <spridgets@auto=
x.team.net> wrote:
>>>>>=20
>>>> =EF=BB=BF
>>>> I don't mind friendly disagreements - its one of the best ways to learn=
!  Ok.  I guess hard is a relative term.  Assuming I'm wrong, and there is n=
o air in the system what is causing the pedal to need to pump up?
>>>>=20
>>>>> On Sun, 16 Jan 2022 at 10:17, GUY DAY <[email-masked]> wrote:
>>>>> Sorry Wes,
>>>>> I've got to disagree with part of your last comment. <snip> If the ped=
al pumps up hard and absolutely stays hard there is still air in the system.=
<end snip>.  If the pedal stays hard there is NO air (or leaks) in the syste=
m.  If there is air in the system then the pedal will feel 'springy' or 'bou=
ncy'.   Air will always act as a spring within a fluid system and anything a=
kin to a discerning foot will feel it. =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Fully agree with the rest of your post - and I've had people saying th=
e brakes are fine as the pedal very slowly sinks to the floor!.  It feels fi=
rm but the pedal sinks over a minute or so.  (If no fluid is lost there is a=
 seal leak in the m/cyl). =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Stay well,
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Guy R Day
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> ------ Original Message ------
>>>>> From: "Weslake1330 via Spridgets" <[email-masked]>
>>>>> To: "Michael MacLean" <[email-masked]>
>>>>> Cc: "Spridgets" <[email-masked]>
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, 16 Jan, 22 At 09:22
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Spridgets] Brake Bleed
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Air can get trapped in a solid brake line and not easily find its way t=
o the slave to be bled out.  I have heard some people say that after driving=
 the car a few times the air moves about and then the system bleeds better. O=
n my Sprite I've sometimes left it a week and then come back to it and re-bl=
ed it with a better result.  I'm also always resigned to using massive amoun=
t of fluid and pumping it all through.  I do have s/s easy bleed nipples but=
 still use a basic bleeding tool as well.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> If the pedal pumps up hard and absolutely stays hard there is still ai=
r in the system.  If it pumps up hard but won't stay absolutely hard - somet=
hing isn't quite seating correcting or you have some other sort of leak.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Regards
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Daniel
>>>>>=20
>>>>>> On Sun, 16 Jan 2022 at 08:49, Michael MacLean via Spridgets <spridget=
[email-masked]> wrote:
>>>>>> You're right.  I got it backasswards.  New master with twin 3/4" bore=
s.   The old one was 7/8" in one bore for the drum brakes and 3/4" bore for t=
he Datsun clutch in the other.  Rear is adjusted as best as possible.  Pity y=
ou can't get shoes arced anymore for full contact with the drum.  I will try=
 to wear them in and keep adjusting to see if that helps. =20
>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> On Sat, Jan 15, 2022 at 9:20 PM Rick Fisk <[email-masked]> wro=
te:
>>>>>>> Hi Mike,
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>  Front disc brakes should have a 3/4" master.  Make sure the rear dr=
ums are adjusted properly.  If the rears aren't adjusted properly you quite o=
ften will have to pump the pedal to get it firm.
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>  Rick
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>  > On Jan 15, 2022, at 11:22 PM, Michael MacLean via Spridgets <spri=
[email-masked]> wrote:
>>>>>>>  >=20
>>>>>>>  > =EF=BB=BF
>>>>>>>  > The front drum brakes and master cylinder on my Bugeye were recen=
tly swapped out for disc brakes.  The old master was 3/4" bore with a 7/8" s=
leeve for the Datsun clutch.  The new master is 7/8" in both bores to actuat=
e the calipers correctly.  Installation went without a hitch and the car was=
 bled multiple times, but for some reason the brake pedal goes down aways be=
fore it works.  You can actually pump the pedal up a bit. We can't understan=
d it.  There are no leaks and it was bled properly, butt it acts like there i=
s still air in the system.  Any ideas?
>>>>>>>  > Mike MacLean
>>>>>>>  > ------------------------
>>>>>>>  >=20
>>>>>>>  > [email-masked]
>>>>>>>  >=20
>>>>>>>  > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>>>>>>  > Suggested annual donation: $12.75
>>>>>>>  >=20
>>>>>>>  > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/spridgets  http://autox.te=
am.net/archive
>>>>>>>  >=20
>>>>>>>  > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/spridge=
ts/[email-masked]
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>  ------------------------
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>  [email-masked]
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>  Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>>>>>  Suggested annual donation: $12.75
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>>>>>>  Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/spridgets  http://autox.team.=
net/archive
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>>>>> =20
>>>>> ------------------------
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>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> [email-masked]
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>>>>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
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>>>>> Suggested annual donation: $12.75
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>>>> ------------------------
>>>>=20
>>>> [email-masked]
>>>>=20
>>>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"ltr"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">Sor=
ry Mike, when I mentioned hoses I was giving Daniel a little prod. &nbsp;Las=
t year he mentioned getting another run of silicone radiator hoses made up a=
nd I could use another set. &nbsp;The people that make them have had issues w=
ith the virus and running a little behind.</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><=
div dir=3D"ltr">Rick</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">On J=
an 16, 2022, at 5:14 PM, Michael MacLean &lt;[email-masked]&gt; w=
rote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=
=BB=BF<div dir=3D"auto">New stainless steel braided hoses on the calipers.&n=
bsp; Same old 20 year old hose in the rear.&nbsp; Something to think about I=
 guess.<div dir=3D"auto">Mike M</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><d=
iv dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sun, Jan 16, 2022, 1:48 PM Rick Fisk v=
ia Spridgets &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">spridgets@autox=
.team.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D=
"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"=
auto"><div dir=3D"ltr"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">Daniel - think hoses. &nbsp;=F0=
=9F=98=81</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">On Jan 16, 202=
2, at 4:46 PM, Rick Fisk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D=
"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></blo=
ckquote></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF<div dir=3D=
"ltr"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">In my experience the usual cause is rear brakes=
 not adjusted tight enough.&nbsp; The first press of the pedal moves the sho=
es away from their resting position, but not all the way to the drum. &nbsp;=
 A quick second press of the pedal moves them even further.&nbsp; A quick th=
ird press of the pedal may put the shoes in contact with the drum and the pe=
dal feels hard.&nbsp; Release the pedal and the shoes move all the way back t=
o their initial resting position and you start all over again when you want t=
o use the brakes.&nbsp; No air in the system and the pedal feels great once y=
ou get the shoes all the way out to the drum.</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></di=
v><div dir=3D"ltr">Rick</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">=
On Jan 16, 2022, at 4:32 PM, Weslake1330 via Spridgets &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">spridgets@au=
tox.team.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type=3D"ci=
te"><div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF<div dir=3D"ltr">I don't mind friendly disagre=
ements - its one of the best ways to learn!&nbsp; Ok.&nbsp; I guess hard is a=
 relative term.&nbsp; Assuming I'm wrong, and there is no air in the system w=
hat is causing the pedal to need to pump up?</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sun, 16 Jan 2022 at 10:17, GUY=
 DAY &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"no=
referrer">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"=
gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204=
,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><u></u>     <div><div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"unic=
ode-bidi:embed">Sorry Wes, <div><p>I've got to disagree with part of your la=
st comment. &lt;snip&gt; <span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">If the pedal p=
umps up hard and absolutely stays hard there is still air in the system.&lt;=
end snip&gt;.  </span><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">If the pedal stay=
s hard there is NO air (or leaks) in the system.  If there is air in the sys=
tem then the pedal will feel 'springy' or 'bouncy'.   Air will always act as=
 a spring within a fluid system and anything akin to a discerning foot will f=
eel it.  </span></p><div><p><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap"><br></span>=
</p><p><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">Fully agree with the rest of you=
r post - and I've had people saying the brakes are fine as the pedal very sl=
owly sinks to the floor!.  It feels firm but the pedal sinks over a minute o=
r so.  (If no fluid is lost there is a seal leak in the m/cyl).  </span></p>=
<p><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap;display:inline"><br></span></p><div><=
br></div><div><p>Stay well,</p><p><br></p><p>Guy R Day</p><blockquote style=3D=
"margin:0px auto;padding:0px 2em;border-left:2px solid rgb(0,173,229);white-=
space:pre-wrap"><br><br>------ Original Message ------<br>From: "Weslake1330=
 via Spridgets" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_b=
lank" rel=3D"noreferrer">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br>To: "Michael Ma=
cLean" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank" re=
l=3D"noreferrer">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br>Cc: "Spridgets" &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferre=
r">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br>Sent: Sunday, 16 Jan, 22 At 09:22<br>=
Subject: Re: [Spridgets] Brake Bleed<br><br><div dir=3D"ltr">Air can get tra=
pped in a solid brake line and not easily find its way to the slave to be bl=
ed out.  I have heard some people say that after driving the car a few times=
 the air moves about and then the system bleeds better. On my Sprite I've so=
metimes left it a week and then come back to it and re-bled it with a better=
 result.  I'm also always resigned to using massive amount of fluid and pump=
ing it all through.  I do have s/s easy bleed nipples but still use a basic b=
leeding tool as well.<div><br></div><div>If the pedal pumps up hard and abso=
lutely stays hard there is still air in the system.  If it pumps up hard but=
 won't stay absolutely hard - something isn't quite seating correcting or yo=
u have some other sort of leak.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards</div><div><=
br></div><div><br></div><div>Daniel</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote=
"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sun, 16 Jan 2022 at 08:49, Michae=
l MacLean via Spridgets &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" targ=
et=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer"><span>[email-masked]</span><span>=
</span></a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:=
1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>You're right.  I got it backasswards.  New master=
 with twin 3/4" bores.   The old one was 7/8" in one bore for the drum brake=
s and 3/4" bore for the Datsun clutch in the other.  Rear is adjusted as bes=
t as possible.  Pity you can't get shoes arced anymore for full contact with=
 the drum.  I will try to wear them in and keep adjusting to see if that hel=
ps.  <br></div><div>Mike<br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, Jan 15, 2022 at 9:20 PM Rick Fisk &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferre=
r"><span>[email-masked]</span><span></span></a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><b=
lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-lef=
t:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Hi Mike,<br> <br> Front disc b=
rakes should have a 3/4" master.  Make sure the rear drums are adjusted prop=
erly.  If the rears aren't adjusted properly you quite often will have to pu=
mp the pedal to get it firm.<br> <br> Rick<br> <br> &gt; On Jan 15, 2022, at=
 11:22 PM, Michael MacLean via Spridgets &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spridgets@aut=
ox.team.net" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer"><span>[email-masked]=
.net</span><span></span></a>&gt; wrote:<br> &gt; <br> &gt; =EF=BB=BF<br> &gt=
; The front drum brakes and master cylinder on my Bugeye were recently swapp=
ed out for disc brakes.  The old master was 3/4" bore with a 7/8" sleeve for=
 the Datsun clutch.  The new master is 7/8" in both bores to actuate the cal=
ipers correctly.  Installation went without a hitch and the car was bled mul=
tiple times, but for some reason the brake pedal goes down aways before it w=
orks.  You can actually pump the pedal up a bit. We can't understand it.  Th=
ere are no leaks and it was bled properly, butt it acts like there is still a=
ir in the system.  Any ideas?<br> &gt; Mike MacLean<br> &gt; ---------------=
---------<br> &gt; <br> &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" tar=
get=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer"><span>[email-masked]</span><span=
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