Subject: Re: [Spridgets] Brake Bleed

From: Rick Fisk via Spridgets <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2022 00:20:24 -0500

Hi Mike,

Front disc brakes should have a 3/4" master.  Make sure the rear drums are adjusted properly.  If the rears aren't adjusted properly you quite often will have to pump the pedal to get it firm.

Rick

> On Jan 15, 2022, at 11:22 PM, Michael MacLean via Spridgets <[email-masked]> wrote:
> 
> 
> The front drum brakes and master cylinder on my Bugeye were recently swapped out for disc brakes.  The old master was 3/4" bore with a 7/8" sleeve for the Datsun clutch.  The new master is 7/8" in both bores to actuate the calipers correctly.  Installation went without a hitch and the car was bled multiple times, but for some reason the brake pedal goes down aways before it works.  You can actually pump the pedal up a bit. We can't understand it.  There are no leaks and it was bled properly, butt it acts like there is still air in the system.  Any ideas?
> Mike MacLean
> ------------------------
> 
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From: Michael MacLean via Spridgets <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2022 00:48:56 -0800

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You're right.  I got it backasswards.  New master with twin 3/4" bores.
The old one was 7/8" in one bore for the drum brakes and 3/4" bore for the
Datsun clutch in the other.  Rear is adjusted as best as possible.  Pity
you can't get shoes arced anymore for full contact with the drum.  I will
try to wear them in and keep adjusting to see if that helps.
Mike

On Sat, Jan 15, 2022 at 9:20 PM Rick Fisk <[email-masked]> wrote:

> Hi Mike,
>
> Front disc brakes should have a 3/4" master.  Make sure the rear drums ar=
e
> adjusted properly.  If the rears aren't adjusted properly you quite often
> will have to pump the pedal to get it firm.
>
> Rick
>
> > =EF=BB=BF
> > The front drum brakes and master cylinder on my Bugeye were recently
> swapped out for disc brakes.  The old master was 3/4" bore with a 7/8"
> sleeve for the Datsun clutch.  The new master is 7/8" in both bores to
> actuate the calipers correctly.  Installation went without a hitch and th=
e
> car was bled multiple times, but for some reason the brake pedal goes dow=
n
> aways before it works.  You can actually pump the pedal up a bit. We can'=
t
> understand it.  There are no leaks and it was bled properly, butt it acts
> like there is still air in the system.  Any ideas?
> > Mike MacLean
> > ------------------------
> >
> > [email-masked]
> >
> > Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/spridgets/[email-masked]
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>You&#39;re right.=C2=A0 I got it backasswards.=C2=A0 =
New master with twin 3/4&quot; bores.=C2=A0=C2=A0 The old one was 7/8&quot;=
 in one bore for the drum brakes and 3/4&quot; bore for the Datsun clutch i=
n the other.=C2=A0 Rear is adjusted as best as possible.=C2=A0 Pity you can=
&#39;t get shoes arced anymore for full contact with the drum.=C2=A0 I will=
 try to wear them in and keep adjusting to see if that helps.=C2=A0 <br></d=
iv><div>Mike<br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr"=
 class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, Jan 15, 2022 at 9:20 PM Rick Fisk &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br></d=
iv><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bord=
er-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Hi Mike,<br>
<br>
Front disc brakes should have a 3/4&quot; master.=C2=A0 Make sure the rear =
drums are adjusted properly.=C2=A0 If the rears aren&#39;t adjusted properl=
y you quite often will have to pump the pedal to get it firm.<br>
<br>
Rick<br>
<br>
&gt; On Jan 15, 2022, at 11:22 PM, Michael MacLean via Spridgets &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]=
m.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; =EF=BB=BF<br>
&gt; The front drum brakes and master cylinder on my Bugeye were recently s=
wapped out for disc brakes.=C2=A0 The old master was 3/4&quot; bore with a =
7/8&quot; sleeve for the Datsun clutch.=C2=A0 The new master is 7/8&quot; i=
n both bores to actuate the calipers correctly.=C2=A0 Installation went wit=
hout a hitch and the car was bled multiple times, but for some reason the b=
rake pedal goes down aways before it works.=C2=A0 You can actually pump the=
 pedal up a bit. We can&#39;t understand it.=C2=A0 There are no leaks and i=
t was bled properly, butt it acts like there is still air in the system.=C2=
=A0 Any ideas?<br>
&gt; Mike MacLean<br>
&gt; ------------------------<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">spridget=
[email-masked]</a><br>
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[email-masked]

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From: Weslake1330 via Spridgets <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2022 09:22:00 +0000

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Air can get trapped in a solid brake line and not easily find its way to
the slave to be bled out.  I have heard some people say that after driving
the car a few times the air moves about and then the system bleeds better.
On my Sprite I've sometimes left it a week and then come back to it and
re-bled it with a better result.  I'm also always resigned to using massive
amount of fluid and pumping it all through.  I do have s/s easy bleed
nipples but still use a basic bleeding tool as well.

If the pedal pumps up hard and absolutely stays hard there is still air in
the system.  If it pumps up hard but won't stay absolutely hard - something
isn't quite seating correcting or you have some other sort of leak.

Regards

Daniel

On Sun, 16 Jan 2022 at 08:49, Michael MacLean via Spridgets <
[email-masked]> wrote:

> The old one was 7/8" in one bore for the drum brakes and 3/4" bore for th=
e
>> Front disc brakes should have a 3/4" master.  Make sure the rear drums
>> are adjusted properly.  If the rears aren't adjusted properly you quite
>> often will have to pump the pedal to get it firm.
>>
>> Rick
>>
>> actuate the calipers correctly.  Installation went without a hitch and t=
he
>> car was bled multiple times, but for some reason the brake pedal goes do=
wn
>> aways before it works.  You can actually pump the pedal up a bit. We can=
't
>> understand it.  There are no leaks and it was bled properly, butt it act=
s
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/spridgets/[email-masked]
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Air can get trapped in a solid brake line and not easily f=
ind its way to the slave to be bled out.=C2=A0 I have heard some people say=
 that after driving the car a few times the air moves about and then the sy=
stem bleeds better. On my Sprite I&#39;ve sometimes left it a week and then=
 come back to it and re-bled it with a better result.=C2=A0 I&#39;m also al=
ways resigned to using massive amount of fluid and pumping it all through.=
=C2=A0 I do have s/s easy bleed nipples but still use a basic bleeding tool=
 as well.<div><br></div><div>If the pedal pumps up hard and absolutely stay=
s hard there is still air in the system.=C2=A0 If it pumps up hard but won&=
#39;t stay absolutely hard - something isn&#39;t quite seating correcting o=
r you have some other sort of leak.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards</div><=
div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Daniel</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail=
_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sun, 16 Jan 2022 at 08:49,=
 Michael MacLean via Spridgets &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]=
et">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"g=
mail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204=
,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>You&#39;re right.=C2=A0 I=
 got it backasswards.=C2=A0 New master with twin 3/4&quot; bores.=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 The old one was 7/8&quot; in one bore for the drum brakes and 3/4&quot;=
 bore for the Datsun clutch in the other.=C2=A0 Rear is adjusted as best as=
 possible.=C2=A0 Pity you can&#39;t get shoes arced anymore for full contac=
t with the drum.=C2=A0 I will try to wear them in and keep adjusting to see=
 if that helps.=C2=A0 <br></div><div>Mike<br></div></div><br><div class=3D"=
gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, Jan 15, 2022 at =
9:20 PM Rick Fisk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_bl=
ank">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,20=
4,204);padding-left:1ex">Hi Mike,<br>
<br>
Front disc brakes should have a 3/4&quot; master.=C2=A0 Make sure the rear =
drums are adjusted properly.=C2=A0 If the rears aren&#39;t adjusted properl=
y you quite often will have to pump the pedal to get it firm.<br>
<br>
Rick<br>
<br>
&gt; On Jan 15, 2022, at 11:22 PM, Michael MacLean via Spridgets &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]=
m.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; =EF=BB=BF<br>
&gt; The front drum brakes and master cylinder on my Bugeye were recently s=
wapped out for disc brakes.=C2=A0 The old master was 3/4&quot; bore with a =
7/8&quot; sleeve for the Datsun clutch.=C2=A0 The new master is 7/8&quot; i=
n both bores to actuate the calipers correctly.=C2=A0 Installation went wit=
hout a hitch and the car was bled multiple times, but for some reason the b=
rake pedal goes down aways before it works.=C2=A0 You can actually pump the=
 pedal up a bit. We can&#39;t understand it.=C2=A0 There are no leaks and i=
t was bled properly, butt it acts like there is still air in the system.=C2=
=A0 Any ideas?<br>
&gt; Mike MacLean<br>
&gt; ------------------------<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">spridget=
[email-masked]</a><br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Donate: <a href=3D"http://www.team.net/donate.html" rel=3D"noreferrer"=
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[email-masked]

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From: Ron Corry via Spridgets <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2022 10:27:47 +0000

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I read on his website that Bugeyeguy has stayed with 7/8" brake masters
when fitting front discs and that he sees no need for a change to 3/4".

I changed to 3/4" a tandem master when I fitted front discs and Datsun
5Sp., but when I later fitted rear discs, the initial 'bite' on the pedal
went way down. If I pull up the H/brake when (foot) braking, the 'bite'
point comes right up again.

So, I now have a new 7/8" Master on the bench ready to fit, along with a
remote Servo. Will report on progress in time.

Yes, I know our cars don't need rear discs; it has been a fun (read Vanity)
project for me, that also eliminates all that trouble dealing with leaking
wheel cylinders and adjusting shoes. However, I will not negatively comment
if your choice is to keep rear drums.

On Sun 16 Jan 2022, 05:20 Rick Fisk via Spridgets, <[email-masked]=
t>

e
e
n
t
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/spridgets/[email-masked]
>

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<div dir=3D"auto">I read on his website that Bugeyeguy has stayed with 7/8&=
quot; brake masters when fitting front discs and that he sees no need for a=
 change to 3/4&quot;.<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I change=
d to 3/4&quot; a tandem master when I fitted front discs and Datsun 5Sp., b=
ut when I later fitted rear discs, the initial &#39;bite&#39; on the pedal =
went way down. If I pull up the H/brake when (foot) braking, the &#39;bite&=
#39; point comes right up again.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=
=3D"auto">So, I now have a new 7/8&quot; Master on the bench ready to fit, =
along with a remote Servo. Will report on progress in time.</div><div dir=
=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Yes, I know our cars don&#39;t need r=
ear discs; it has been a fun (read Vanity) project for me, that also elimin=
ates all that trouble dealing with leaking wheel cylinders and adjusting sh=
oes. However, I will not negatively comment if your choice is to keep rear =
drums.</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"=
gmail_attr">On Sun 16 Jan 2022, 05:20 Rick Fisk via Spridgets, &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote=
:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bor=
der-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi Mike,<br>
<br>
Front disc brakes should have a 3/4&quot; master.=C2=A0 Make sure the rear =
drums are adjusted properly.=C2=A0 If the rears aren&#39;t adjusted properl=
y you quite often will have to pump the pedal to get it firm.<br>
<br>
Rick<br>
<br>
&gt; On Jan 15, 2022, at 11:22 PM, Michael MacLean via Spridgets &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">=
[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; =EF=BB=BF<br>
&gt; The front drum brakes and master cylinder on my Bugeye were recently s=
wapped out for disc brakes.=C2=A0 The old master was 3/4&quot; bore with a =
7/8&quot; sleeve for the Datsun clutch.=C2=A0 The new master is 7/8&quot; i=
n both bores to actuate the calipers correctly.=C2=A0 Installation went wit=
hout a hitch and the car was bled multiple times, but for some reason the b=
rake pedal goes down aways before it works.=C2=A0 You can actually pump the=
 pedal up a bit. We can&#39;t understand it.=C2=A0 There are no leaks and i=
t was bled properly, butt it acts like there is still air in the system.=C2=
=A0 Any ideas?<br>
&gt; Mike MacLean<br>
&gt; ------------------------<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"n=
oreferrer">[email-masked]</a><br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Donate: <a href=3D"http://www.team.net/donate.html" rel=3D"noreferrer =
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From: Weslake1330 via Spridgets <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2022 21:31:55 +0000

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I don't mind friendly disagreements - its one of the best ways to learn!
Ok.  I guess hard is a relative term.  Assuming I'm wrong, and there is no
air in the system what is causing the pedal to need to pump up?

On Sun, 16 Jan 2022 at 10:17, GUY DAY <[email-masked]> wrote:

> Sorry Wes,
>
> I've got to disagree with part of your last comment. <snip> If the pedal
> pumps up hard and absolutely stays hard there is still air in the
> system.<end snip>. If the pedal stays hard there is NO air (or leaks) in
> the system. If there is air in the system then the pedal will feel
> 'springy' or 'bouncy'. Air will always act as a spring within a fluid
> system and anything akin to a discerning foot will feel it.
>
>
> Fully agree with the rest of your post - and I've had people saying the
> brakes are fine as the pedal very slowly sinks to the floor!. It feels fi=
rm
> but the pedal sinks over a minute or so. (If no fluid is lost there is a
> seal leak in the m/cyl).
>
>
>
> Stay well,
>
>
> Guy R Day
>
>
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> From: "Weslake1330 via Spridgets" <[email-masked]>
> To: "Michael MacLean" <[email-masked]>
> Cc: "Spridgets" <[email-masked]>
> Sent: Sunday, 16 Jan, 22 At 09:22
> Subject: Re: [Spridgets] Brake Bleed
>
> the car a few times the air moves about and then the system bleeds better=
.
> re-bled it with a better result. I'm also always resigned to using massiv=
e
> If the pedal pumps up hard and absolutely stays hard there is still air i=
n
> the system. If it pumps up hard but won't stay absolutely hard - somethin=
g
>> You're right. I got it backasswards. New master with twin 3/4" bores. Th=
e
>> old one was 7/8" in one bore for the drum brakes and 3/4" bore for the
>> Datsun clutch in the other. Rear is adjusted as best as possible. Pity y=
ou
>> can't get shoes arced anymore for full contact with the drum. I will try=
 to
>> wear them in and keep adjusting to see if that helps.
>> Mike
>>
he
>>> car was bled multiple times, but for some reason the brake pedal goes d=
own
't
s
> ------------------------------
> ------------------------
>
> [email-masked]
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/spridgets/[email-masked]
>
>

--000000000000aa912405d5b9c4c3
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<div dir=3D"ltr">I don&#39;t mind friendly disagreements - its one of the b=
est ways to learn!=C2=A0 Ok.=C2=A0 I guess hard is a relative term.=C2=A0 A=
ssuming I&#39;m wrong, and there is no air in the system what is causing th=
e pedal to need to pump up?</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D=
"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sun, 16 Jan 2022 at 10:17, GUY DAY &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br></=
div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bor=
der-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><u></u>     <div><div=
 dir=3D"auto" style=3D"unicode-bidi:embed">Sorry Wes, <div><p>I&#39;ve got =
to disagree with part of your last comment. &lt;snip&gt; <span style=3D"whi=
te-space:pre-wrap">If the pedal pumps up hard and absolutely stays hard the=
re is still air in the system.&lt;end snip&gt;.  </span><span style=3D"whit=
e-space:pre-wrap">If the pedal stays hard there is NO air (or leaks) in the=
 system.  If there is air in the system then the pedal will feel &#39;sprin=
gy&#39; or &#39;bouncy&#39;.   Air will always act as a spring within a flu=
id system and anything akin to a discerning foot will feel it.  </span></p>=
<div><p><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap"><br></span></p><p><span style=
=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">Fully agree with the rest of your post - and I&#3=
9;ve had people saying the brakes are fine as the pedal very slowly sinks t=
o the floor!.  It feels firm but the pedal sinks over a minute or so.  (If =
no fluid is lost there is a seal leak in the m/cyl).  </span></p><p><span s=
tyle=3D"white-space:pre-wrap;display:inline"><br></span></p><div><br></div>=
<div><p>Stay well,</p><p><br></p><p>Guy R Day</p><blockquote style=3D"margi=
n:0px auto;padding:0px 2em;border-left:2px solid rgb(0,173,229);white-space=
:pre-wrap"><br><br>------ Original Message ------<br>From: &quot;Weslake133=
0 via Spridgets&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" targe=
t=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br>To: &quot;Michael MacLean&=
quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">sp=
[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br>Cc: &quot;Spridgets&quot; &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]=
t</a>&gt;<br>Sent: Sunday, 16 Jan, 22 At 09:22<br>Subject: Re: [Spridgets] =
Brake Bleed<br><br><div dir=3D"ltr">Air can get trapped in a solid brake li=
ne and not easily find its way to the slave to be bled out.  I have heard s=
ome people say that after driving the car a few times the air moves about a=
nd then the system bleeds better. On my Sprite I&#39;ve sometimes left it a=
 week and then come back to it and re-bled it with a better result.  I&#39;=
m also always resigned to using massive amount of fluid and pumping it all =
through.  I do have s/s easy bleed nipples but still use a basic bleeding t=
ool as well.<div><br></div><div>If the pedal pumps up hard and absolutely s=
tays hard there is still air in the system.  If it pumps up hard but won&#3=
9;t stay absolutely hard - something isn&#39;t quite seating correcting or =
you have some other sort of leak.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards</div><di=
v><br></div><div><br></div><div>Daniel</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_q=
uote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sun, 16 Jan 2022 at 08:49, M=
ichael MacLean via Spridgets &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]=
" target=3D"_blank"><span>[email-masked]</span><span></span></a>&=
gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div =
dir=3D"ltr"><div>You&#39;re right.  I got it backasswards.  New master with=
 twin 3/4&quot; bores.   The old one was 7/8&quot; in one bore for the drum=
 brakes and 3/4&quot; bore for the Datsun clutch in the other.  Rear is adj=
usted as best as possible.  Pity you can&#39;t get shoes arced anymore for =
full contact with the drum.  I will try to wear them in and keep adjusting =
to see if that helps.  <br></div><div>Mike<br></div></div><br><div class=3D=
"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, Jan 15, 2022 at=
 9:20 PM Rick Fisk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_b=
lank"><span>[email-masked]</span><span></span></a>&gt; wrote:<br></di=
v><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;borde=
r-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Hi Mike,<br> <br> Front=
 disc brakes should have a 3/4&quot; master.  Make sure the rear drums are =
adjusted properly.  If the rears aren&#39;t adjusted properly you quite oft=
en will have to pump the pedal to get it firm.<br> <br> Rick<br> <br> &gt; =
On Jan 15, 2022, at 11:22 PM, Michael MacLean via Spridgets &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank"><span>[email-masked]=
am.net</span><span></span></a>&gt; wrote:<br> &gt; <br> &gt; =EF=BB=BF<br> =
&gt; The front drum brakes and master cylinder on my Bugeye were recently s=
wapped out for disc brakes.  The old master was 3/4&quot; bore with a 7/8&q=
uot; sleeve for the Datsun clutch.  The new master is 7/8&quot; in both bor=
es to actuate the calipers correctly.  Installation went without a hitch an=
d the car was bled multiple times, but for some reason the brake pedal goes=
 down aways before it works.  You can actually pump the pedal up a bit. We =
can&#39;t understand it.  There are no leaks and it was bled properly, butt=
 it acts like there is still air in the system.  Any ideas?<br> &gt; Mike M=
acLean<br> &gt; ------------------------<br> &gt; <br> &gt; <a href=3D"mail=
to:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank"><span>[email-masked]=
et</span><span></span></a><br> &gt; <br> &gt; Donate: <a href=3D"http://www=
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