Subject: Re: [Mgs] Brake shoes

From: "dave" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 15:15:57 -0500

That's a very open ended question.  The standard brakes on the 1500 work
pretty well to stop the car.  Barney Gaylord in MgaGuru discusses the whole
issue on his website.

Are you going racing?  You just want it to stop better?  How much better?
And how do you define better?  If your master cylinder is working correctly,
you have new hoses, well adjusted brakes all around, and shoes in good shape
then it is stopping just fine.  

Easiest way to stop better - fatter, stickier tires - bigger better tire
patch on the road.

After that, do you want to implement the front disk brakes on the 1600 or
MGB?  Get a 1600 or an MGB

Disk brakes all around like on a Miata?  Get a Miata 

-----Original Message-----
From: Mgs <[email-masked]> On Behalf Of Thomas Gunderson
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2021 3:06 PM
To: Mga List <[email-masked]>
Subject: [Mgs] Brake shoes

How can I improve the standard brakes?
Tom Gunderson 1957 MGA 1500 rst

Sent from my iPhone X

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From: "Osborne, Paul" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 21:44:48 +0000

Hi Tom,  Brakes, ah, first what is wrong with the brakes on your 1500?  I to have a 57 1500 and was having a heck of a time getting it all to where I thought I needed to be. I also have  a 74 BGT.
The short of it with out all the expiation, unless you want it, The arc of the shoe has to match that of the arc of the drum or the brakes are poor. New shoes are sort of close. Now you can sand to fit each shoe pair to the drum before you install, or tighten them up and drive the car, with a good many hard slow downs. Yes they will get warm.  After the seat-in you can lock all 4s with out a lot of effort. MG made a lot As with drum brakes before they went to disc. They all stopped.  The conversion to disc is about $900-1200 or if you want a shop to do it my guess is about 2500. 
So, what do you not like about your 57 A s brakes. 

Paul

> Paul Osborne
> Department of Electrical and Computer Eng
> University of Rochester 
> 201 Hopeman Building RC
> Rochester NY 14627
> 
   585-275-5226

> On Jun 24, 2021, at 4:06 PM, Thomas Gunderson <[email-masked]> wrote:
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---

From: Barney Gaylord <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 18:04:33 -0400

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Keep the shoes properly adjusted, and use slightly larger modern 
radial tires.  155-80-15 would be close to the orginal 5.60-15 bias 
ply tires for size.  165-80-15 is closest to original diameter to 
make the speedometer and odometer most accurate.  165 is also more 
common and may even be cheaper than 155, and is the largert tire 
recomended for use on 4" wide rims.  That said, a lot of people have 
installed 185-70-15 tires on 4" or 4-1/2" rims with pretty good 
results.  Not real pretty on the narrow rims, but they work.

Keep the shock absorber fluid topped up so the wheels and tires don't 
bounce while on the brakes (especially in corners).  More rigid 
wheels also help reduce bounce and wobble (especially on bumps in 
corners).  That is, 60-spoke wire wheels can improve braking, believe 
it or not.  72-spoke as well (although they look somewhat "busy" on an MGA).

Most alloy wheels will also be stiffer than any factory wheels (wire 
or steel), so as strange as the odd alloy wheels may look on the MGA, 
they can and do brake and handle better (especially on bumpy surfaces).

The ultimate limit for braking is grip where the rubber meets the 
road.  When you can step hard on the pedal and lock up all four 
wheels at any speed, it doesn't get any better than that.  Youi could 
install soft rubber race tires that grip better and wear out a lot faster.

You could install a power brake boster to reduce pedal effort, but do 
not expect it to reduce braking distance at all.

One thing that definitely will not help braking is to screw up the 
front to rear brake force bias.  Installing larger bore slave 
cylinders on the front will only make the front tires lock up early 
before rear tires have developed full force, which would result in 
longer stopping distance.  Installing larger bore slave cylinders on 
the rear only will make the rear tires lock up before the front ones 
have developed full force, also making longer stopping distance.

Installing larger bore slave cylinders all around can reduce pedal 
force, similar to installing a power booster, but also makes for 
longer pedal travel.  You can get similar results by sleeving the 
master cylinder to smaller bore size.  None of that wil increase grip 
of tires on road or reduce stopping distance.

Disc brakes can reduce brake fade (which most people will never 
encounter unless racing).  By the nature of all around good brakes, 
disc brakes cannot be any more powerful than the drum brakes, as that 
would screw up front to rear biase and increase stopping distance.

The factory got it pretty close to right from the beginning, not from 
any magic, more from decades of practical experience, so that's kind 
of hard to beat.

Barney

At 04:06 PM 6/24/2021, Thomas Gunderson wrote:
>....

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<html>
<body>
<font size=3>Keep the shoes properly adjusted, and use slightly larger
modern radial tires.&nbsp; 155-80-15 would be close to the orginal
5.60-15 bias ply tires for size.&nbsp; 165-80-15 is closest to original
diameter to make the speedometer and odometer most accurate.&nbsp; 165 is
also more common and may even be cheaper than 155, and is the largert
tire recomended for use on 4&quot; wide rims.&nbsp; That said, a lot of
people have installed 185-70-15 tires on 4&quot; or 4-1/2&quot; rims with
pretty good results.&nbsp; Not real pretty on the narrow rims, but they
work.<br><br>
Keep the shock absorber fluid topped up so the wheels and tires don't
bounce while on the brakes (especially in corners).&nbsp; More rigid
wheels also help reduce bounce and wobble (especially on bumps in
corners).&nbsp; That is, 60-spoke wire wheels can improve braking,
believe it or not.&nbsp; 72-spoke as well (although they look somewhat
&quot;busy&quot; on an MGA).<br><br>
Most alloy wheels will also be stiffer than any factory wheels (wire or
steel), so as strange as the odd alloy wheels may look on the MGA, they
can and do brake and handle better (especially on bumpy
surfaces).<br><br>
The ultimate limit for braking is grip where the rubber meets the
road.&nbsp; When you can step hard on the pedal and lock up all four
wheels at any speed, it doesn't get any better than that.&nbsp; Youi
could install soft rubber race tires that grip better and wear out a lot
faster.<br><br>
You could install a power brake boster to reduce pedal effort, but do not
expect it to reduce braking distance at all.<br><br>
One thing that definitely will not help braking is to screw up the front
to rear brake force bias.&nbsp; Installing larger bore slave cylinders on
the front will only make the front tires lock up early before rear tires
have developed full force, which would result in longer stopping
distance.&nbsp; Installing larger bore slave cylinders on the rear only
will make the rear tires lock up before the front ones have developed
full force, also making longer stopping distance.<br><br>
Installing larger bore slave cylinders all around can reduce pedal force,
similar to installing a power booster, but also makes for longer pedal
travel.&nbsp; You can get similar results by sleeving the master cylinder
to smaller bore size.&nbsp; None of that wil increase grip of tires on
road or reduce stopping distance.<br><br>
Disc brakes can reduce brake fade (which most people will never encounter
unless racing).&nbsp; By the nature of all around good brakes, disc
brakes cannot be any more powerful than the drum brakes, as that would
screw up front to rear biase and increase stopping distance.<br><br>
The factory got it pretty close to right from the beginning, not from any
magic, more from decades of practical experience, so that's kind of hard
to beat.&nbsp; <br><br>
Barney<br><br>
<br>
At 04:06 PM 6/24/2021, Thomas Gunderson wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">How can I improve the standard
brakes?<br>
Tom Gunderson 1957 MGA 1500 rst<br>
....</font></blockquote><br>
</body>
</html>

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[email-masked]

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From: Robert's New iPad <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 18:05:21 -0400

Tom,
   MGA brakes are pretty darn good.  They will stop the wheels, and quickly. You should be able to lock up all four brakes (carefully) at any speed on any road surface.   While it is possible to overheat them (fade), it’s not something you are likely to do in everyday driving. 
    If you want to feel fade, stop hard from 60 mph, accelerate to 60 again and stop hard again, several times.  You will feel some loss of braking g-forces on the third or fourth stop, but that doesn’t happen in normal driving.
    I would suggest going over them completely, replacing all three rubber hoses, flushing with new fluid, filling and bleeding.  Have a look at the shoes and their adjusters.
   Believe it or not, I had a TD in my garage recently that had one front brake set up with two leading shoes, as built, and one set up with two trailing shoes, as bodged by the mechanic who replaced the brakes.   You didn’t think that could be done.....It can be.....
    Further, he had turned up the nuts on the hand-brake lever. Handbrake worked wonderfully well, locking up the rear wheels with two clicks,  but the service brake was doing nothing.  
   MGA brakes were good when new, and should be just as good these days.
Bob

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