Subject: Re: [Mgs] [MG-MGB] Clutch problems with thermal component

From: Barney Gaylord via Mgs <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2016 20:07:26 -0500

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Clutch pedal goes to floor on first stroke after=20
a long rest, but works correctly otherwise.  This=20
implies that the clutch slave cylinder piston has=20
retractred too far, requiring one pedal push to reset it to correst=
 position.

The clutch slve cylinder should have a light=20
force compression spring inside.  See here:=20
http://mgaguru.com/mgtech/hydraulics/ht107.htm

If that spring is missing the slave cyinder may=20
still work, but the piston might retract farther=20
than intended during a period of dormancy (long=20
drive without using the clutch).  You might want=20
to open the slave cuinder to check on what's inside.

At 08:26 AM 11/8/2016 -0800, David Councill via Mgs wrote:
>....
>It is a bizarre problem. I was hoping someone=20
>might have had similar problems. Since my last=20
>email, I have made two 15 mile drives with the=20
>same very predictable issue. The master remains=20
>the primary suspect because the issue happened=20
>after replacing the master cylinder. The slave=20
>cylinder was an aftermarket replacement I put in=20
>about 4-5 years ago but the only thing I have=20
>done with it is to drain the brake fluid.
>
>A recap of this morning=92s typical drive =96 solid=20
>pedal through several gear shifts through town,=20
>started highway drive. During this highway part,=20
>I slightly pressed on the clutch pedal several=20
>times on the drive until resistance was felt to=20
>see what was happening After a couple of miles=20
>and coolant temp up to 160F, some slackness and=20
>as soon as I got to the next town where I work,=20
>I had almost full travel to the floor. But the=20
>one press of the pedal and it was back to almost=20
>normal, next time I shifted, the pedal was solid=20
>again and a routine drive to work through town.=20
>It should now be fine until I start the next highway drive.
>(if I was only doing city driving, I wouldn=92t be having any issues)
>
>The symptoms appear more to be like a seal issue=20
>as one to two presses of the pedal resolves the=20
>issue (until next time). However, I have seen=20
>hydraulic leaks before which are slight enough=20
>to allow air in/out but not leak fluid. The seal=20
>on the banjo is still the place of primary=20
>suspicion so I=92ll probably drain the master and=20
>then completely redo the connection to see if I=20
>can get a better seal. There is a slight wetness=20
>at that connection but not enough to make for=20
>even a minuscule drop of fluid. Also relevant, I=20
>installed a new Lockheed master cylinder as I=20
>mentioned. This is part LM13105, =93fits all years=20
>1962-1980=94. However, sources like Moss list=20
>separate clutch master cylinders for 62-67 and=20
>68-80. From what I can tell, they are identical=20
>with one small difference in how the master=20
>cylinder mounts to the pedal box (how the bolts=20
>line up) such that this new master cylinder does=20
>not sit up straight but has a slight tilt=20
>clockwise (5-10 degrees). That could be enough=20
>that the flare fitting might be damaged or=20
>slightly off on the banjo connection =96 or at=20
>least that is my primary theory at present. The=20
>only problem with that theory is that somehow=20
>air would be getting pulled in under no pressure=20
>or vacuum other than that generated by metal=20
>expansion. Hopefully, it is not the master=20
>cylinder and its seals at fault because that involves a lot more work.
>
>Still, I thought about asking the group about=20
>master cylinders before I started =96 re-sleeve=20
>versus new. The costs were about the same so I=20
>went with new. Maybe I should have tried one of=20
>those new plastic reservoir after-market units=20
>since this is my almost daily driver. For now, I=20
>will work with the banjo fitting but I may end=20
>up trying another master cylinder if that fails,=20
>perhaps take the one out of my 67 BGT which is=20
>slated for an engine overhaul due to worn rings=20
>and excessive oil consumption. Either way, I=92ll=20
>get this figured out sometime in the not too=20
>distant future and then I=92ll report back.
>
>David Councill
>64 MGB
>67 MGBGT
>72 MGB

>From: Mgs [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of PaulHunt73 via=
 Mgs
>Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2016 12:52 AM
>To: [email-masked]; [email-masked]
>Cc: [email-masked]
>Subject: Re: [Mgs] [MG-MGB] Clutch problems wuth thermal component
>
>"pedal goes almost to the floor with no resistance but enough to still=
 work"
>
>Expand?  If the biting point is very low when=20
>this happens, then either the pressure seal is=20
>not sealing when it should be, or there is air=20
>in the system.  If the biting point remains=20
>'normal' then it's a purely mechanical issue,=20
>possibly pivots binding with heat expansion.
>
>If the banjo union at the master is wet then=20
>that does imply a leak, which may or may not let=20
>in air, and further tightening may not seal=20
>it.  Also if it's wet it implies fluid loss,=20
>which should eventually become visible from the=20
>level in the master.  But that may take some=20
>time, and it will be affected by fluid expansion=20
>and contraction with heat/cool cycles.
>
>If there is air getting in, then I can see that=20
>this becomes apparent on flooring the pedal,=20
>which will tend to push the air down while=20
>compressing it.  But it will float to the top of=20
>the pipe while the pedal is down, then when the=20
>pedal is released it will be flushed out of the=20
>system into the reservoir.  That is one of the=20
>many techniques that may be needed to get full=20
>travel of the clutch slave after working on the=20
>hydraulics.  The effects of incomplete bleeding=20
>i.e. air remaining in the system would normally=20
>be apparent on every pedal operation.
>
>However that begs the question of how the air is=20
>getting in in the first place.  The fluid is=20
>either under no pressure at all (pedal=20
>released), or under pressure (anywhere beyond=20
>where the master piston seal closes off the=20
>bypass hole to the reservoir).  If air was=20
>getting with the pedal released then it would be=20
>apparent on the first operation no matter what=20
>the temperature was, and more than once on each=20
>drive.  And the pressure while the pedal was=20
>anywhere in its disengagement portion should=20
>stop air getting in, even on the upwards stroke,=20
>as it is the cover plate that is pushing back on=20
>the slave piston and hence the fluid, which is=20
>the main factor in returning the master piston and hence the pedal.
>
>The other possibility is that something is=20
>causing the slave piston to be pushed back into=20
>the cylinder while you are driving, pushing=20
>fluid that should normally be in the system back=20
>into the reservoir, and creating lost-motion at=20
>the release arm.  This has to be taken up before=20
>you can start to disengage the clutch, so=20
>reducing pedal back-pressure and lowering the biting point.
>
>But I can't really see how that could suddenly=20
>start happening with the new master, so the new=20
>master (subject to getting a proper seal on the=20
>banjo) has to be the prime suspect.
>
>PaulH.

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<body>
Clutch pedal goes to floor on first stroke after a long rest, but works
correctly otherwise.&nbsp; This implies that the clutch slave cylinder
piston has retractred too far, requiring one pedal push to reset it to
correst position.<br><br>
The clutch slve cylinder should have a light force compression spring
inside.&nbsp; See here:
<a href=3D"http://mgaguru.com/mgtech/hydraulics/ht107.htm" eudora=3D"autourl=
">
http://mgaguru.com/mgtech/hydraulics/ht107.htm<br><br>
</a>If that spring is missing the slave cyinder may still work, but the
piston might retract farther than intended during a period of dormancy
(long drive without using the clutch).&nbsp; You might want to open the
slave cuinder to check on what's inside.<br><br>
<br>
At 08:26 AM 11/8/2016 -0800, David Councill via Mgs wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=3Dcite class=3Dcite cite=3D"">....<br>
It is a bizarre problem. I was hoping someone might have had similar
problems. Since my last email, I have made two 15 mile drives with the
same very predictable issue. The master remains the primary suspect
because the issue happened after replacing the master cylinder. The slave
cylinder was an aftermarket replacement I put in about 4-5 years ago but
the only thing I have done with it is to drain the brake fluid.<br>
&nbsp;<br>
A recap of this morning=92s typical drive =96 solid pedal through several
gear shifts through town, started highway drive. During this highway
part, I slightly pressed on the clutch pedal several times on the drive
until resistance was felt to see what was happening After a couple of
miles and coolant temp up to 160F, some slackness and as soon as I got to
the next town where I work, I had almost full travel to the floor. But
the one press of the pedal and it was back to almost normal, next time I
shifted, the pedal was solid again and a routine drive to work through
town. It should now be fine until I start the next highway drive.<br>
(if I was only doing city driving, I wouldn=92t be having any issues)<br>
&nbsp;<br>
The symptoms appear more to be like a seal issue as one to two presses of
the pedal resolves the issue (until next time). However, I have seen
hydraulic leaks before which are slight enough to allow air in/out but
not leak fluid. The seal on the banjo is still the place of primary
suspicion so I=92ll probably drain the master and then completely redo the
connection to see if I can get a better seal. There is a slight wetness
at that connection but not enough to make for even a minuscule drop of
fluid. Also relevant, I installed a new Lockheed master cylinder as I
mentioned. This is part LM13105, =93fits all years 1962-1980=94. However,
sources like Moss list separate clutch master cylinders for 62-67 and
68-80. From what I can tell, they are identical with one small difference
in how the master cylinder mounts to the pedal box (how the bolts line
up) such that this new master cylinder does not sit up straight but has a
slight tilt clockwise (5-10 degrees). That could be enough that the flare
fitting might be damaged or slightly off on the banjo connection =96 or at
least that is my primary theory at present. The only problem with that
theory is that somehow air would be getting pulled in under no pressure
or vacuum other than that generated by metal expansion. Hopefully, it is
not the master cylinder and its seals at fault because that involves a
lot more work.<br>
&nbsp;<br>
Still, I thought about asking the group about master cylinders before I
started =96 re-sleeve versus new. The costs were about the same so I went
with new. Maybe I should have tried one of those new plastic reservoir
after-market units since this is my almost daily driver. For now, I will
work with the banjo fitting but I may end up trying another master
cylinder if that fails, perhaps take the one out of my 67 BGT which is
slated for an engine overhaul due to worn rings and excessive oil
consumption. Either way, I=92ll get this figured out sometime in the not
too distant future and then I=92ll report back.<br>
&nbsp;<br>
David Councill<br>
64 MGB<br>
67 MGBGT<br>
72 MGB</blockquote><br><br>
<blockquote type=3Dcite class=3Dcite cite=3D""><b>From:</b> Mgs
[<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" eudora=3D"autourl">
mailto:[email-masked]</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>PaulHunt73 via
Mgs<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, November 08, 2016 12:52 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> [email-masked]; [email-masked]<br>
<b>Cc:</b> [email-masked]<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Mgs] [MG-MGB] Clutch problems wuth thermal
component<br>
&nbsp;<br>
&quot;pedal goes almost to the floor with no resistance but enough to
still work&quot;<br>
&nbsp;<br>
Expand?&nbsp; If the biting point is very low when this happens, then
either the pressure seal is not sealing when it should be, or there is
air in the system.&nbsp; If the biting point remains 'normal' then it's a
purely mechanical issue, possibly pivots binding with heat
expansion.<br>
&nbsp;<br>
If the banjo union at the master is wet then that does imply a leak,
which may or may not let in air, and further tightening may not seal
it.&nbsp; Also if it's wet it implies fluid loss, which should eventually
become visible from the level in the master.&nbsp; But that may take some
time, and it will be affected by fluid expansion and contraction with
heat/cool cycles.<br>
&nbsp;<br>
If there is air getting in, then I can see that this becomes apparent on
flooring the pedal, which will tend to push the air down while
compressing it.&nbsp; But it will float to the top of the pipe while the
pedal is down, then when the pedal is released it will be flushed out of
the system into the reservoir.&nbsp; That is one of the many techniques
that may be needed to get full travel of the clutch slave after working
on the hydraulics.&nbsp; The effects of incomplete bleeding i.e. air
remaining in the system would normally be apparent on every pedal
operation.<br>
&nbsp;<br>
However that begs the question of how the air is getting in in the first
place.&nbsp; The fluid is either under no pressure at all (pedal
released), or under pressure (anywhere beyond where the master piston
seal closes off the bypass hole to the reservoir).&nbsp; If air was
getting with the pedal released then it would be apparent on the first
operation no matter what the temperature was, and more than once on each
drive.&nbsp; And the pressure while the pedal was anywhere in its
disengagement portion should stop air getting in, even on the upwards
stroke, as it is the cover plate that is pushing back on the slave piston
and hence the fluid, which is the main factor in returning the master
piston and hence the pedal.<br>
&nbsp;<br>
The other possibility is that something is causing the slave piston to be
pushed back into the cylinder while you are driving, pushing fluid that
should normally be in the system back into the reservoir, and creating
lost-motion at the release arm.&nbsp; This has to be taken up before you
can start to disengage the clutch, so reducing pedal back-pressure and
lowering the biting point.<br>
&nbsp;<br>
But I can't really see how that could suddenly start happening with the
new master, so the new master (subject to getting a proper seal on the
banjo) has to be the prime suspect.<br>
&nbsp;<br>
PaulH.</blockquote></body>
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[email-masked]
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From: PaulHunt73 via Mgs <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2016 08:27:48 -0000

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Firstly the tilt in the later clutch master - that was to clear the =
larger brake reservoir cap on North American models when they gained the =
dual circuit system, but was fitted to all MGBs.  AFAIK the tilt rotates =
the master cylinder about the centre-line of the bore, so everything =
should remain in line.  Whilst the pipe could be moved to mate up with =
the master outlet, if the position of the bore changed relative to the =
pedal that could cause problems.

1.  If you continue highway driving, after you have experienced the long =
travel and corrected it with a couple of pedal presses, does it happen =
again?  Or does it only happen once no matter how far you drive?  If it =
only ever happens once then it looks like a master seal problem.

2.  Another test, once you feel the slackness, stop the car where safe =
without using the clutch, and see if you have any free play in the =
release arm.  If there is, then something would appear to be nudging the =
piston back into the bore.  However, there should be a spring inside the =
cylinder which is constantly trying to push the piston out, and that =
should continually being taking up any free play.  The purpose of this =
is to take up any and all play from there on i.e. in the release bearing =
and friction plate, it is this that makes the MGB clutch self-adjusting =
for wear.

As another part of this test, at various temperatures, by pushing on the =
release arm move the push-rod and hence the piston all the way back into =
the cylinder, let it go, and it should ease its way out again.  Make =
sure the master reservoir has some space at the top to avoid the fluid =
overflowing.

PaulH.

  ----- Original Message -----=20
  =20
  It is a bizarre problem. I was hoping someone might have had similar =
problems. Since my last email, I have made two 15 mile drives with the =
same very predictable issue. The master remains the primary suspect =
because the issue happened after replacing the master cylinder. The =
slave cylinder was an aftermarket replacement I put in about 4-5 years =
ago but the only thing I have done with it is to drain the brake fluid.

   ...

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<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Firstly the tilt in the later clutch master - that =
was to=20
clear the larger brake reservoir cap on North American models when they =
gained=20
the dual circuit system, but was fitted to all MGBs.&nbsp; AFAIK the =
tilt=20
rotates the master cylinder about the centre-line of the bore, so =
everything=20
should remain in line.&nbsp; Whilst the pipe could be moved to mate up =
with the=20
master outlet, if the position of the bore changed relative to the pedal =
that=20
could cause problems.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>1.&nbsp; If you continue highway driving, after you =
have=20
experienced the long travel and corrected it with a couple of pedal =
presses,=20
does it happen again?&nbsp; Or does it only happen once no matter how =
far you=20
drive?&nbsp; If it only ever happens once then it looks like a master =
seal=20
problem.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>2.&nbsp; Another test, once you feel the slackness, =
stop the=20
car where safe without using the clutch, and see if you have =
any&nbsp;free=20
play&nbsp;in the release arm.&nbsp; If there is, then something would =
appear to=20
be nudging the piston back into the bore.&nbsp; However, there should be =
a=20
spring inside the cylinder which is constantly trying to push the piston =
out,=20
and that should continually being taking up any free play.&nbsp; The =
purpose of=20
this is to take up any and all play from there on i.e. in the release =
bearing=20
and friction plate, it is this that makes the MGB clutch self-adjusting =
for=20
wear.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>As another part of this test, at various =
temperatures, by=20
pushing on&nbsp;the release arm move the push-rod and hence the piston =
all the=20
way back into the cylinder, let it go, and it should ease its way out=20
again.&nbsp; Make sure the master reservoir has some space at the top to =
avoid=20
the fluid overflowing.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>PaulH.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; =
PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"=20
dir=3Dltr>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: =
black"><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; =
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  <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; =
FONT-SIZE: 11pt">It=20
  is a bizarre problem. I was hoping someone might have had similar =
problems.=20
  Since my last email, I have made two 15 mile drives with the same very =

  predictable issue. The master remains the primary suspect because the =
issue=20
  happened after replacing the master cylinder. The slave cylinder was =
an=20
  aftermarket replacement I put in about 4-5 years ago but the only =
thing I have=20
  done with it is to drain the brake fluid.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; =
FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p>&nbsp;<FONT=20
  color=3D#000000 size=3D2=20
face=3DArial>...</FONT></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>=

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[email-masked]

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From: David Councill via Mgs <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2016 07:54:42 -0800

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I am still driving, squeezing out the final good weather days before winter.
Hopefully, I will get through today and tomorrow before I get a chance for
some disassembly. What I will do is drain the hydraulic fluid, redo the
banjo fitting connection, and remove/rebuild the slave cylinder. Then if the
problem persists, I will remove and investigate the master cylinder. Until
this car (1964 MGB), I have always rebuilt the hydraulics (seals) rather
than buy new master/slave cylinders. But now I have the new Lockheed master
cylinder. The slave cylinder was a new aftermarket unit I installed 5-6
years ago when I started the restoration. The clutch components (pressure
plate, clutch disc, throw-out bearing) were installed new when I rebuilt the
engine last year, about 5000 miles ago.

As near as I can tell, this is a one time thing - the free play starts to
increase about two miles into a 60 mph cruise and when the coolant
temperature approaches normal operating temperature (185 F). Most of the
time, the drive is as I described - very brief city driving, 12 miles on the
highway, and then into the next city for a couple of miles to work. I will
get about 80% free travel on the clutch during the highway drive -
depressing it restores it to maybe 40% travel after the first push and after
2-3 more pushes (standard shifting), I will be back to normal (maybe 5% free
travel). Fluid levels are unaffected. Sometimes, I take an alternate route
home which is almost twice as long but has two highway drives and goes like
this - 1 mile city, 8 miles highway, 2 mile city, 17 miles highway, home.
That is usually my drive to get cheaper petrol so I do it about once a week
(more frequently during convertible season just for the extended drive). And
the problem then also occurs in the initial warmup highway drive, not on the
second highway leg but then that was only one trip.

Barring any unforeseen circumstances, I'll have an answer in a few days.
Hopefully, as I am short of backup cars. My 72B is partially disassembled -
just about ready to pull the engine/transmission in order to put my OD
transmission back in as well as fix the rear engine seal (plus install
speedi-sleeve). The 67 BGT has been idle for about four months due to
excessive oil consumption (~80-100 miles to the quart) and its up next for a
rebuild when I get done with the 72. 

David Councill

64 MGB

72 MGB

67 MGBGT

From: PaulHunt73 [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2016 12:28 AM
To: David Councill; [email-masked]
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Mgs] [MG-MGB] Clutch problems with thermal component

Firstly the tilt in the later clutch master - that was to clear the larger
brake reservoir cap on North American models when they gained the dual
circuit system, but was fitted to all MGBs.  AFAIK the tilt rotates the
master cylinder about the centre-line of the bore, so everything should
remain in line.  Whilst the pipe could be moved to mate up with the master
outlet, if the position of the bore changed relative to the pedal that could
cause problems.

1.  If you continue highway driving, after you have experienced the long
travel and corrected it with a couple of pedal presses, does it happen
again?  Or does it only happen once no matter how far you drive?  If it only
ever happens once then it looks like a master seal problem.

2.  Another test, once you feel the slackness, stop the car where safe
without using the clutch, and see if you have any free play in the release
arm.  If there is, then something would appear to be nudging the piston back
into the bore.  However, there should be a spring inside the cylinder which
is constantly trying to push the piston out, and that should continually
being taking up any free play.  The purpose of this is to take up any and
all play from there on i.e. in the release bearing and friction plate, it is
this that makes the MGB clutch self-adjusting for wear.

As another part of this test, at various temperatures, by pushing on the
release arm move the push-rod and hence the piston all the way back into the
cylinder, let it go, and it should ease its way out again.  Make sure the
master reservoir has some space at the top to avoid the fluid overflowing.

PaulH.

----- Original Message ----- 

It is a bizarre problem. I was hoping someone might have had similar
problems. Since my last email, I have made two 15 mile drives with the same
very predictable issue. The master remains the primary suspect because the
issue happened after replacing the master cylinder. The slave cylinder was
an aftermarket replacement I put in about 4-5 years ago but the only thing I
have done with it is to drain the brake fluid.

...

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<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body bgcolor=3Dwhite =
lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>I am still driving, squeezing out the final good weather days before =
winter. Hopefully, I will get through today and tomorrow before I get a =
chance for some disassembly. What I will do is drain the hydraulic =
fluid, redo the banjo fitting connection, and remove/rebuild the slave =
cylinder. Then if the problem persists, I will remove and investigate =
the master cylinder. Until this car (1964 MGB), I have always rebuilt =
the hydraulics (seals) rather than buy new master/slave cylinders. But =
now I have the new Lockheed master cylinder. The slave cylinder was a =
new aftermarket unit I installed 5-6 years ago when I started the =
restoration. The clutch components (pressure plate, clutch disc, =
throw-out bearing) were installed new when I rebuilt the engine last =
year, about 5000 miles ago.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>As near as I can tell, this is a one time thing &#8211; the free play =
starts to increase about two miles into a 60 mph cruise and when the =
coolant temperature approaches normal operating temperature (185 F). =
Most of the time, the drive is as I described &#8211; very brief city =
driving, 12 miles on the highway, and then into the next city for a =
couple of miles to work. I will get about 80% free travel on the clutch =
during the highway drive &#8211; depressing it restores it to maybe 40% =
travel after the first push and after 2-3 more pushes (standard =
shifting), I will be back to normal (maybe 5% free travel). Fluid levels =
are unaffected. Sometimes, I take an alternate route home which is =
almost twice as long but has two highway drives and goes like this =
&#8211; 1 mile city, 8 miles highway, 2 mile city, 17 miles highway, =
home. That is usually my drive to get cheaper petrol so I do it about =
once a week (more frequently during convertible season just for the =
extended drive). And the problem then also occurs in the initial warmup =
highway drive, not on the second highway leg but then that was only one =
trip.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Barring any unforeseen circumstances, I&#8217;ll have an answer in a =
few days. Hopefully, as I am short of backup cars. My 72B is partially =
disassembled &#8211; just about ready to pull the engine/transmission in =
order to put my OD transmission back in as well as fix the rear engine =
seal (plus install speedi-sleeve). The 67 BGT has been idle for about =
four months due to excessive oil consumption (~80-100 miles to the =
quart) and its up next for a rebuild when I get done with the 72. =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>David Councill<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>64 MGB<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>72 MGB<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>67 MGBGT<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
PaulHunt73 [mailto:[email-masked]] <br><b>Sent:</b> =
Wednesday, November 09, 2016 12:28 AM<br><b>To:</b> David Councill; =
[email-masked]<br><b>Cc:</b> =
[email-masked]<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Mgs] [MG-MGB] Clutch problems =
with thermal component<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Firstly the tilt in the later clutch master - =
that was to clear the larger brake reservoir cap on North American =
models when they gained the dual circuit system, but was fitted to all =
MGBs.&nbsp; AFAIK the tilt rotates the master cylinder about the =
centre-line of the bore, so everything should remain in line.&nbsp; =
Whilst the pipe could be moved to mate up with the master outlet, if the =
position of the bore changed relative to the pedal that could cause =
problems.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>1.&nbsp; If you =
continue highway driving, after you have experienced the long travel and =
corrected it with a couple of pedal presses, does it happen again?&nbsp; =
Or does it only happen once no matter how far you drive?&nbsp; If it =
only ever happens once then it looks like a master seal =
problem.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>2.&nbsp; Another =
test, once you feel the slackness, stop the car where safe without using =
the clutch, and see if you have any&nbsp;free play&nbsp;in the release =
arm.&nbsp; If there is, then something would appear to be nudging the =
piston back into the bore.&nbsp; However, there should be a spring =
inside the cylinder which is constantly trying to push the piston out, =
and that should continually being taking up any free play.&nbsp; The =
purpose of this is to take up any and all play from there on i.e. in the =
release bearing and friction plate, it is this that makes the MGB clutch =
self-adjusting for wear.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>As another part of =
this test, at various temperatures, by pushing on&nbsp;the release arm =
move the push-rod and hence the piston all the way back into the =
cylinder, let it go, and it should ease its way out again.&nbsp; Make =
sure the master reservoir has some space at the top to avoid the fluid =
overflowing.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>PaulH.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:=
5.0pt'><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>----- =
Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'background:#E4E4E4'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;</span>=
<span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>It is a bizarre problem. I was hoping someone might have had similar =
problems. Since my last email, I have made two 15 mile drives with the =
same very predictable issue. The master remains the primary suspect =
because the issue happened after replacing the master cylinder. The =
slave cylinder was an aftermarket replacement I put in about 4-5 years =
ago but the only thing I have done with it is to drain the brake =
fluid.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>.=
..</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p></o:p></span></p></blockquote></div></body></html>
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[email-masked]

--===============5535365814562325273==--

---

From: PaulHunt73 via Mgs <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2016 16:29:10 -0000

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"And the problem then also occurs in the initial warmup highway drive, =
not on the second highway leg ..."

Weird!

But then:

"depressing it restores it to maybe 40% travel after the first push and =
after 2-3 more pushes (standard shifting), I will be back to normal =
(maybe 5% free travel). "

Needing that number of presses does sound more like master pressure seal =
problems than the slave piston getting nudged back.  I had kind-of =
similar on an old master, but it could happen at any time or not at all, =
and how much travel I lost varied from operation to operation.  In that =
case it seems to have been caused by a cracked seal spreader applying =
pressure to one side of the seal only, and cocking it in the bore: =
http://www.mgb-stuff.org.uk/cmseal.htm#1.  Replacing the seal caused no =
end of problems as there are different kits for the original master.

I await further investigations with interest.

PaulH.

  I am still driving, squeezing out the final good weather days before =
winter. Hopefully, I will get through today and tomorrow before I get a =
chance for some disassembly. ...

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<DIV><FONT size=3D2>"</FONT><FONT color=3D#1f497d face=3DCalibri>And the =
problem then=20
also occurs in the initial warmup highway drive, not on the second =
highway leg=20
..."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#1f497d face=3DCalibri></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#1f497d face=3DCalibri>Weird!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#1f497d face=3DCalibri></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#1f497d face=3DCalibri>But then:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#1f497d face=3DCalibri></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#1f497d face=3DCalibri>"depressing it restores it to =
maybe 40%=20
travel after the first push and after 2-3 more pushes (standard =
shifting), I=20
will be back to normal (maybe 5% free travel). "</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#1f497d face=3DCalibri></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#1f497d face=3DCalibri>Needing that number of presses =
does sound=20
more like master pressure seal problems than the slave piston getting =
nudged=20
back.&nbsp; I had kind-of similar on an old master, but it could happen =
at any=20
time or not at all, and how much travel I lost varied from operation to=20
operation.&nbsp; In that case it seems to have been caused by a cracked =
seal=20
spreader applying pressure to one side of the seal only, and cocking it =
in the=20
bore: <A=20
href=3D"http://www.mgb-stuff.org.uk/cmseal.htm#1">http://www.mgb-stuff.or=
g.uk/cmseal.htm#1</A>.&nbsp;=20
Replacing the seal caused no end of problems as there are different kits =
for the=20
original master.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#1f497d face=3DCalibri></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#1f497d face=3DCalibri>I await further investigations =
with=20
interest.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#1f497d face=3DCalibri></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#1f497d face=3DCalibri>PaulH.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#1f497d face=3DCalibri></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#1f497d face=3DCalibri></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
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dir=3Dltr>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT><BR></DIV>
  <DIV class=3DWordSection1>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; =
FONT-SIZE: 11pt">I=20
  am still driving, squeezing out the final good weather days before =
winter.=20
  Hopefully, I will get through today and tomorrow before I get a chance =
for=20
  some disassembly. ...</SPAN></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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[email-masked]

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---

From: dcouncill via Mgs <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2016 11:19:04 -0800

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Finally I have started the disassembly and inspection of the clutch
hydraulic system. I decided not to drive the car the last two days because
the clutch issue seemed to be getting worse or at least the recovery was
becoming slower. At first, after a highway drive, 80% of the clutch
resistance would be lost but would completely recover after 1-2 pressings of
the pedal. But lately, it was taking even more.

I started by draining the fluid and then removing the slave cylinder. There
was some liquid within the dust boot to already indicate possible problems
but it was the disassembly that revealed the answer. And Barney was spot on.
Inside this fairly new slave cylinder (bought new from a vendor 5-6 years
ago) with shiny inner bore and rubber seal, there was no spring! And yet no
issues over the years until I replaced the master cylinder a few weeks ago.
Fortunately, I had an old slave cylinder handy - just had to free the piston
that was stuck to the bore due to corrosion to harvest its spring. I'll
start the reassembly this afternoon and maybe get in a test drive before the
rain arrives.

David Councill

64 B

67 BGT

72 B

From: Barney Gaylord [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: Tuesday, November 8, 2016 5:07 PM
To: David Councill; 'PaulHunt73'
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Mgs] [MG-MGB] Clutch problems with thermal component

Clutch pedal goes to floor on first stroke after a long rest, but works
correctly otherwise.  This implies that the clutch slave cylinder piston has
retractred too far, requiring one pedal push to reset it to correst
position.

The clutch slve cylinder should have a light force compression spring
inside.  See here: http://mgaguru.com/mgtech/hydraulics/ht107.htm

If that spring is missing the slave cyinder may still work, but the piston
might retract farther than intended during a period of dormancy (long drive
without using the clutch).  You might want to open the slave cuinder to
check on what's inside.

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<o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" />
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<o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit">
<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Finally I have started the disassembly and inspection of the clutch =
hydraulic system. I decided not to drive the car the last two days =
because the clutch issue seemed to be getting worse or at least the =
recovery was becoming slower. At first, after a highway drive, 80% of =
the clutch resistance would be lost but would completely recover after =
1-2 pressings of the pedal. But lately, it was taking even =
more.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>I started by draining the fluid and then removing the slave cylinder. =
There was some liquid within the dust boot to already indicate possible =
problems but it was the disassembly that revealed the answer. And Barney =
was spot on. Inside this fairly new slave cylinder (bought new from a =
vendor 5-6 years ago) with shiny inner bore and rubber seal, there was =
no spring! And yet no issues over the years until I replaced the master =
cylinder a few weeks ago. Fortunately, I had an old slave cylinder handy =
&#8211; just had to free the piston that was stuck to the bore due to =
corrosion to harvest its spring. I&#8217;ll start the reassembly this =
afternoon and maybe get in a test drive before the rain =
arrives.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>David Councill<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>64 B<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>67 BGT<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>72 B<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
Barney Gaylord [mailto:[email-masked]] <br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, =
November 8, 2016 5:07 PM<br><b>To:</b> David Councill; =
'PaulHunt73'<br><b>Cc:</b> [email-masked]<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: =
[Mgs] [MG-MGB] Clutch problems with thermal =
component<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Clutch pedal =
goes to floor on first stroke after a long rest, but works correctly =
otherwise.&nbsp; This implies that the clutch slave cylinder piston has =
retractred too far, requiring one pedal push to reset it to correst =
position.<br><br>The clutch slve cylinder should have a light force =
compression spring inside.&nbsp; See here: <a =
href=3D"http://mgaguru.com/mgtech/hydraulics/ht107.htm">http://mgaguru.co=
m/mgtech/hydraulics/ht107.htm<br><br></a>If that spring is missing the =
slave cyinder may still work, but the piston might retract farther than =
intended during a period of dormancy (long drive without using the =
clutch).&nbsp; You might want to open the slave cuinder to check on =
what's inside.<br><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></body></html>
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