Subject: Re: [Mgs] Follow up to MGA 1600 MkII front end suspension suspense

From: Barney Gaylord via Mgs <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2015 18:25:04 -0700

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Clayton,  --

The bearing outer race must be a press fit in the hub to prevent 
relative motion and wear.  If the bearing was loose in the hub the 
outer race would "walk" (orbit) in the rotating hub causing wear in 
the hub that would increase the clearance with time.  This happened 
to my front hubs a few months ago, and it got so bad that I had to 
repace the hubs.  If you catch this situation early enough you can 
install the bearings into the hub with Loctite 620 bearing set 
adheive to prevent motion of the outer race in the hub.  For future 
service it may require heat to soften the adhesive to remove the 
bearings from the hub.

The bearing inner race can be a slip fit on the spindle.  When the 
spindle nut is tightened it pushes all of the parts tight together, 
oil seal spacer, inboard bearing inner race, inner race spacer, 
outboard bearing inner race, keyed flat washer, and the nut.  When 
all is tight the inner bearing races cannot move on the spindle.

Barney

At 03:54 PM 7/18/2015 -0700, Clayton Kirkwood via Mgs wrote:
>....
>Hello Barney.
>
>I read with great interest Barney's The Nature of ROLLING ELEMENT 
>BEARINGS -- UT-106 at mgaguru.com, regarding the loading and 
>tightness of bearing in the front hub. If the Gentle Reader 
>remembers, we were last reviewing the problems of my hubs, bearings 
>and various other components of suspension and brakes. A quick 
>recap: wire wheels with unmovable brake caliper pistons (shot) and 
>both inner and outer bearings a variable tightness in hubs. The 
>inner spacer was not tight, it wobbled around inside the hub more 
>than the .0125" free that adding up the numbers in the repair manual 
>suggest (more like .15 inch short) although the bearings were 
>against the shoulders and neither bearings nor inner spacer appeared 
>worn axially. I found that the last assembly was missing the oil 
>seal spacers on both side. There is some definite wear at the outer 
>bearing spindle suggesting problems with solidarity of bearings and 
>inner spacers, very possibly because of missing oil seal spacer.
>
>Barney's explanation is worth the read just to better understand 
>bearings in general, but front MGA bearings specifically. My 
>greatest difficulty in reading his missive was regarding the fit of 
>the bearings on the spindle and inside the hubs. The suggestion is 
>that the outer races should be press fit or close, while the inner 
>races on the spindle should only by hand application tight. Barney, 
>I don't really understand why the inner races can be so relatively 
>loose. Because of the relative damage to the spindle, a noticeable 
>wear on one side of the spindle especially on the outer bearings,  I 
>would think that a slip fit inner race, even with axial compression, 
>would allow potential spinning on the spindle causing wear similar 
>to what I am seeing. Will I have a problem with gluing the inner 
>races to the spindle? I realize this may make it difficult to 
>dismantle later but perhaps a small amount of glue would be 
>acceptable given the current wear? Moss doesn't have replacement 
>spindle knuckles, only hubs, which, with the new bearings I am 
>buying, may still need to be purchased.
>
>At this point, I am purchasing bearings, all new spacers, oil seals, 
>brake calipers, pads, disks, suspension kit, swivel links, bolts and 
>side washers and associated swivel pins, tie rod ends. Expensive.
>
>Thanks for any illumination.
>
>Clayton

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Clayton,&nbsp; --&nbsp; <br><br>
The bearing outer race must be a press fit in the hub to prevent relative
motion and wear.&nbsp; If the bearing was loose in the hub the outer race
would &quot;walk&quot; (orbit) in the rotating hub causing wear in the
hub that would increase the clearance with time.&nbsp; This happened to
my front hubs a few months ago, and it got so bad that I had to repace
the hubs.&nbsp; If you catch this situation early enough you can install
the bearings into the hub with Loctite 620 bearing set adheive to prevent
motion of the outer race in the hub.&nbsp; For future service it may
require heat to soften the adhesive to remove the bearings from the
hub.<br><br>
The bearing inner race can be a slip fit on the spindle.&nbsp; When the
spindle nut is tightened it pushes all of the parts tight together, oil
seal spacer, inboard bearing inner race, inner race spacer, outboard
bearing inner race, keyed flat washer, and the nut.&nbsp; When all is
tight the inner bearing races cannot move on the spindle.<br><br>
Barney<br><br>
<br>
At 03:54 PM 7/18/2015 -0700, Clayton Kirkwood via Mgs wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=3Dcite class=3Dcite cite=3D"">....<br>
Hello Barney.<br>
&nbsp;<br>
I read with great interest Barney=92s <b>The Nature of ROLLING ELEMENT
BEARINGS -- UT-106 at mgaguru.com, </b>regarding the loading and
tightness of bearing in the front hub. If the Gentle Reader remembers, we
were last reviewing the problems of my hubs, bearings and various other
components of suspension and brakes. A quick recap: wire wheels with
unmovable brake caliper pistons (shot) and both inner and outer bearings
a variable tightness in hubs. The inner spacer was not tight, it wobbled
around inside the hub more than the .0125=94 free that adding up the
numbers in the repair manual suggest (more like .15 inch short) although
the bearings were against the shoulders and neither bearings nor inner
spacer appeared worn axially. I found that the last assembly was missing
the oil seal spacers on both side. There is some definite wear at the
outer bearing spindle suggesting problems with solidarity of bearings and
inner spacers, very possibly because of missing oil seal spacer.<br>
&nbsp;<br>
Barney=92s explanation is worth the read just to better understand bearings
in general, but front MGA bearings specifically. My greatest difficulty
in reading his missive was regarding the fit of the bearings on the
spindle and inside the hubs. The suggestion is that the outer races
should be press fit or close, while the inner races on the spindle should
only by hand application tight. Barney, I don=92t really understand why the
inner races can be so relatively loose. Because of the relative damage to
the spindle, a noticeable wear on one side of the spindle especially on
the outer bearings,&nbsp; I would think that a slip fit inner race, even
with axial compression, would allow potential spinning on the spindle
causing wear similar to what I am seeing. Will I have a problem with
gluing the inner races to the spindle? I realize this may make it
difficult to dismantle later but perhaps a small amount of glue would be
acceptable given the current wear? Moss doesn=92t have replacement spindle
knuckles, only hubs, which, with the new bearings I am buying, may still
need to be purchased.<br>
&nbsp;<br>
At this point, I am purchasing bearings, all new spacers, oil seals,
brake calipers, pads, disks, suspension kit, swivel links, bolts and side
washers and associated swivel pins, tie rod ends. Expensive.<br>
&nbsp;<br>
Thanks for any illumination.<br>
&nbsp;<br>
Clayton</blockquote></body>
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From: PaulHunt73 via Mgs <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2015 09:35:05 +0100

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Are you and Barney singing off the same hymn-sheet?  What Barney =
describes sounds the same to me as the MGB - that is the inner races are =
held tightly between a the oil seal collar on the inner part of the stub =
axle and the clamping nut and washer, with spacer and shims between =
them.  Clamped like that - to between 40 and 70 ft lb on the MGB at =
least - the inners can't spin on the axle.  But I thought it had already =
been established that your version of the MGA isn't like that anyway.

If the oil seal collar is missing, i.e. the part that the oil seal lip =
runs on, then with the MGB system (again at least) you will never get =
correct assembly of hub, bearings and axle as that takes up 1/4" or more =
of the effective length of the stub axle and hence play in the assembly.

I also suggested that if the problem was only on one side, then =
carefully dismantle the other and compare components and dimensions.

PaulH.
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  ... I don't really understand why the inner races can be so relatively =
loose. Because of the relative damage to the spindle, a noticeable wear =
on one side of the spindle especially on the outer bearings,  I would =
think that a slip fit inner race, even with axial compression, would =
allow potential spinning on the spindle causing wear similar to what I =
am seeing.
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<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Are you and Barney singing off the same =
hymn-sheet?&nbsp; What=20
Barney describes sounds the same to me as the MGB - that is the inner =
races are=20
held tightly between a the oil seal collar on the inner part of the stub =
axle=20
and the clamping nut and washer, with spacer and shims between =
them.&nbsp;=20
Clamped like that - to between 40 and 70 ft lb on the MGB at least - the =
inners=20
can't spin on the axle.&nbsp; But I thought it had already =
been&nbsp;established=20
that your version of the MGA isn't like that anyway.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>If the oil seal collar is missing, i.e. the part =
that the oil=20
seal lip runs on, then with the MGB system (again at least) you will =
never get=20
correct assembly of hub, bearings and axle as that takes up 1/4" or more =
of the=20
effective length of the stub axle and hence play in the =
assembly.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I also suggested that if the problem was only on one =
side,=20
then carefully dismantle the other and compare components and=20
dimensions.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>PaulH.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; =
PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: =
black">... I=20
  don=92t really understand why the inner races can be so relatively =
loose.=20
  Because of the relative damage to the spindle, a noticeable wear on =
one side=20
  of the spindle especially on the outer bearings,&nbsp; I would think =
that a=20
  slip fit inner race, even with axial compression, would allow =
potential=20
  spinning on the spindle causing wear similar to what I am=20
seeing.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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[email-masked]

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From: Clayton Kirkwood via Mgs <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2015 13:31:28 -0700

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Yes, I think all three of us are singing in harmony. Both sides on my A were
missing the oil seal spacer. From looking at the drawing in the workbook,
and not having my spacer yet, it appears that that spacer fits in the inner
diameter of the oil seal and butts up against the brake adapter plate and
the inner bearing bearing (can't tell if it is the inner or outer race). I
am really surprised that I don't have significant damage with the oil seal
spacer missing: I would have thought the steering would be really bad.

The 1500, 1600, and MkII don't use shims, only the twin cam and deluxe use
those because of different kinds of bearings, as I understand it. I did
however, buy spacers because of the extended space I seem to be running.
That may resolve itself with the various new parts.

Clayton

From: PaulHunt73 [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: Sunday, July 19, 2015 1:35 AM
To: [email-masked]; [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Mgs] Follow up to MGA 1600 MkII front end suspension suspense

Are you and Barney singing off the same hymn-sheet?  What Barney describes
sounds the same to me as the MGB - that is the inner races are held tightly
between a the oil seal collar on the inner part of the stub axle and the
clamping nut and washer, with spacer and shims between them.  Clamped like
that - to between 40 and 70 ft lb on the MGB at least - the inners can't
spin on the axle.  But I thought it had already been established that your
version of the MGA isn't like that anyway.

If the oil seal collar is missing, i.e. the part that the oil seal lip runs
on, then with the MGB system (again at least) you will never get correct
assembly of hub, bearings and axle as that takes up 1/4" or more of the
effective length of the stub axle and hence play in the assembly.

I also suggested that if the problem was only on one side, then carefully
dismantle the other and compare components and dimensions.

PaulH.

----- Original Message ----- 

... I don't really understand why the inner races can be so relatively
loose. Because of the relative damage to the spindle, a noticeable wear on
one side of the spindle especially on the outer bearings,  I would think
that a slip fit inner race, even with axial compression, would allow
potential spinning on the spindle causing wear similar to what I am seeing.

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lang=3DEN-US link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72"><div =
class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Yes, I think all three of us are singing in =
harmony. Both sides on my A were missing the oil seal spacer. From =
looking at the drawing in the workbook, and not having my spacer yet, it =
appears that that spacer fits in the inner diameter of the oil seal and =
butts up against the brake adapter plate and the inner bearing bearing =
(can&#8217;t tell if it is the inner or outer race). I am really =
surprised that I don&#8217;t have significant damage with the oil seal =
spacer missing: I would have thought the steering would be really =
bad.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>The 1500, 1600, and MkII =
don&#8217;t use shims, only the twin cam and deluxe use those because of =
different kinds of bearings, as I understand it. I did however, buy =
spacers because of the extended space I seem to be running. That may =
resolve itself with the various new parts.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Clayton<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b>From:</b> PaulHunt73 =
[mailto:[email-masked]] <br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, July 19, =
2015 1:35 AM<br><b>To:</b> [email-masked]; =
[email-masked]<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Mgs] Follow up to MGA 1600 =
MkII front end suspension suspense<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif'>Are you =
and Barney singing off the same hymn-sheet?&nbsp; What Barney describes =
sounds the same to me as the MGB - that is the inner races are held =
tightly between a the oil seal collar on the inner part of the stub axle =
and the clamping nut and washer, with spacer and shims between =
them.&nbsp; Clamped like that - to between 40 and 70 ft lb on the MGB at =
least - the inners can't spin on the axle.&nbsp; But I thought it had =
already been&nbsp;established that your version of the MGA isn't like =
that anyway.</span><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times =
New Roman",serif'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman",serif'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman",serif'>If the oil seal collar is missing, i.e. the part that the =
oil seal lip runs on, then with the MGB system (again at least) you will =
never get correct assembly of hub, bearings and axle as that takes up =
1/4&quot; or more of the effective length of the stub axle and hence =
play in the assembly.</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman",serif'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman",serif'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman",serif'>I also suggested that if the problem was only on one side, =
then carefully dismantle the other and compare components and =
dimensions.</span><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman",serif'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman",serif'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman",serif'>PaulH.</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman",serif'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:=
5.0pt'><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>----- Original =
Message ----- <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'background:#E4E4E4'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>... I =
don&#8217;t really understand why the inner races can be so relatively =
loose. Because of the relative damage to the spindle, a noticeable wear =
on one side of the spindle especially on the outer bearings,&nbsp; I =
would think that a slip fit inner race, even with axial compression, =
would allow potential spinning on the spindle causing wear similar to =
what I am =
seeing.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></blockquote></div></body></html>
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[email-masked]

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From: PaulHunt73 via Mgs <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2015 08:36:10 +0100

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If the oil seal collar fits on the stub axle and the oil seal itself is =
pressed into the hub, as on the MGB, then the spacer has to butt up =
against the inner race of the bearing.  Anything else would mean the oil =
seal or the outer race would have to rotate inside the hub.

I don't know whether this =
http://www.mgexp.com/article/mgb/mg-midget-wheel-bearings/bad-midget-wire=
-wheel-hub.jpg is any help but it describes how what seems to be a =
similar problem can occur on the Midget which has fully assembled ball =
bearings instead of tapered rollers.  Replacement hubs have a radius =
where the inner race of the outer bearing butts up against a shoulder, =
which holds the bearing further out than it should be.  The spacer is =
loose, but everything else is 'tight' as it is the bearings themselves =
that are taking any force applied to the nut and will fail prematurely.  =
As long as the nut is not tightened you could still achieve the .002 to =
.004 (same as the MGB it seems) end float on the bearings, but at the =
expense of having the bearing inners free to move on the stub axle and =
loss of strength in the axle itself.  Steering would be fine.  =
Ironically there are more than a few that opine this is the best way to =
set up MGB front wheel bearings!

PaulH.
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  Yes, I think all three of us are singing in harmony. Both sides on my =
A were missing the oil seal spacer. From looking at the drawing in the =
workbook, and not having my spacer yet, it appears that that spacer fits =
in the inner diameter of the oil seal and butts up against the brake =
adapter plate and the inner bearing bearing (can't tell if it is the =
inner or outer race). I am really surprised that I don't have =
significant damage with the oil seal spacer missing: I would have =
thought the steering would be really bad.

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<DIV><FONT size=3D2>If the oil seal collar fits on the stub axle and the =
oil seal=20
itself is pressed into the hub, as on the MGB, then the spacer has to =
butt up=20
against the inner race of the bearing.&nbsp; Anything else would mean =
the oil=20
seal or the outer race would have to rotate inside the hub.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I don't know whether this <A=20
href=3D"http://www.mgexp.com/article/mgb/mg-midget-wheel-bearings/bad-mid=
get-wire-wheel-hub.jpg">http://www.mgexp.com/article/mgb/mg-midget-wheel-=
bearings/bad-midget-wire-wheel-hub.jpg</A>&nbsp;is=20
any help but it describes how what seems to be a similar problem can =
occur on=20
the Midget which has fully assembled ball bearings instead of tapered=20
rollers.&nbsp; Replacement hubs have a radius where the inner race of =
the outer=20
bearing butts up against a shoulder, which holds the bearing further out =
than it=20
should be.&nbsp; The spacer is loose, but everything else is 'tight' as =
it is=20
the bearings themselves that are taking any force applied to the nut and =
will=20
fail prematurely.&nbsp; As long as the nut is not tightened you could =
still=20
achieve the .002 to .004 (same as the MGB it seems) end float on the =
bearings,=20
but at the expense of having the bearing inners free to move on the stub =
axle=20
and loss of strength in the axle itself.&nbsp; Steering would be =
fine.&nbsp;=20
Ironically there are more than a few that opine&nbsp;this is the best =
way to set=20
up MGB front wheel bearings!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>PaulH.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; =
PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: #1f497d">Yes, I think all three of us are =
singing in=20
  harmony. Both sides on my A were missing the oil seal spacer. From =
looking at=20
  the drawing in the workbook, and not having my spacer yet, it appears =
that=20
  that spacer fits in the inner diameter of the oil seal and butts up =
against=20
  the brake adapter plate and the inner bearing bearing (can=92t tell if =
it is the=20
  inner or outer race). I am really surprised that I don=92t have =
significant=20
  damage with the oil seal spacer missing: I would have thought the =
steering=20
  would be really bad.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV class=3DWordSection1><FONT=20
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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