Subject: Re: [Mgs] tappet question

From: PaulHunt73 via Mgs <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 08:25:00 +0100

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Depends on the figure you used.  Workshop Manual quotes 15 thou, cold.  =
I don't like hot as the engine is continually cooling while I'm doing =
it.  I use 14 thou which is loose and 16 thou which is lightly pinched =
so I can get a better feel for it as I only check them very rarely.  As =
far as I know it really only makes a difference if the engine gets so =
hot that the gaps close up and you get combustion seepage past not quite =
closed valves, which burns them.  Any loss of performance is only =
secondary.

In the early years not only did I find I was adjusting them every year, =
sometimes opening them and sometimes closing them, but also getting =
repeatable gaps from one turn of the engine to the next was a problem.  =
Then I discovered that at the strict rule of nine (RON) points, several =
of the valves were still changing gap.  Some of them had the biggest gap =
before RON and some after.  Since discovering that perhaps 15 years or =
go or more I've never had to alter them until I changed the head gasket =
last year, so hadn't been checking tem every year anyway.

PaulH
  ----- Original Message -----=20

  When I went to reset the tappet clearance, I found the old settings =
rather sloppy. I reset them so that the gauge was snug - it slid in but =
it definitely tight. Which is correct? I know that it makes a difference =
on performance and full combustion. Yes, I did the checking while hot.

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<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Depends on the figure you used.&nbsp; Workshop =
Manual quotes=20
15 thou, cold.&nbsp; I don't like hot as the engine is continually =
cooling while=20
I'm doing it.&nbsp; I use 14 thou which is loose&nbsp;and 16 thou which=20
is&nbsp;lightly pinched&nbsp;so I can get a better feel for it as I only =
check=20
them very rarely.&nbsp; As far as I know it really only makes a =
difference if=20
the engine gets so hot that the gaps close up and you get combustion =
seepage=20
past&nbsp;not quite closed valves, which burns them.&nbsp; Any loss of=20
performance is only secondary.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>In the early years not only did I find I was =
adjusting them=20
every year, sometimes opening them&nbsp;and sometimes closing them, but =
also=20
getting repeatable gaps from one turn of the engine to the next was a=20
problem.&nbsp; Then I discovered that at the strict rule of nine (RON) =
points,=20
several of the valves were still changing gap.&nbsp; Some of them had =
the=20
biggest gap before RON and some after.&nbsp; Since discovering that =
perhaps 15=20
years or go or more I've never had to alter them until I changed the =
head gasket=20
last year, so hadn't been checking tem every year anyway.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>PaulH</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
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  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
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  <DIV class=3DWordSection1>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal>When I went to reset the tappet clearance, I =
found the old=20
  settings rather sloppy. I reset them so that the gauge was snug =96 it =
slid in=20
  but it definitely tight. Which is correct? I know that it makes a =
difference=20
  on performance and full combustion. Yes, I did the checking while=20
  hot.<o:p></o:p></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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_______________________________________________

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Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
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From: "Osborne, Paul via Mgs" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 14:24:43 +0000

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Since we are on this thread, I have heard a good number of engines that are=
 quiet as a mouse and no valve train noise.  The engine now in my GT the ar=
e just down right noisy. Tried tighter, tried looser , with no effect .Usin=
g VR-1 oil with a NAPA filter , engine has a bout 35000 miles on it.   good=
 oil pres..   Any ideas???

paul

Paul Osborne
Department of Electrical and Computer Eng
University of Rochester
201 Hopeman Build RC
Rochester NY 14627
585-275-5226

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252">
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e-break: after-white-space;">
Since we are on this thread, I have heard a good number of engines that are=
 quiet as a mouse and no valve train noise. &nbsp;The engine now in my GT t=
he are just down right noisy. Tried tighter, tried looser , with no effect =
.Using VR-1 oil with a NAPA filter ,
 engine has a bout 35000 miles on it. &nbsp; good oil pres.. &nbsp; Any ide=
as???&nbsp;
<div><br>
</div>
<div>paul</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div apple-content-edited=3D"true"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=
=3D"border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px;">
<blockquote cite=3D"mid:[email-masked]=
u" type=3D"cite">
<span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color:=
 rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: no=
rmal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orp=
hans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widow=
s: 2; word-spacing: 0px;  "><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"borde=
r-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-sty=
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-=
bottom: 12pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; ">
Paul&nbsp;Osborne<br>
Department of Electrical and Computer Eng<br>
University of Rochester&nbsp;<br>
201 Hopeman Build RC<br>
Rochester NY 14627<br>
</p>
</div>
</span></span></blockquote>
<div><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-size: 16px; ">585-275-5=
226</span><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space: pre; ">
</span></div>
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[email-masked]

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---

From: Peter Caldwell via Mgs <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 09:28:43 -0500

I recommend the go no-go method.  If you want 15, 
then use a 14 and a 16. 14 fits, 16 doesn't, then 
you have 15. Takes the feel out of feeler gauge.
         Peter C
--

>When I went to reset the tappet clearance, I 
>found the old settings rather sloppy. I reset 
>them so that the gauge was snug – it slid in but 
>it definitely tight. Which is correct? I know 
>that it makes a difference on performance and 
>full combustion. Yes, I did the checking while hot.
>
>TIA,
>
>Clayton

[email-masked]

---

From: Charley & Peggy Robinson via Mgs <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 10:20:40 -0500

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You might want to check and see how much play in the rocker arm bushings 
& shaft.

CR

On 5/18/2015 9:24 AM, Osborne, Paul via Mgs wrote:
> Since we are on this thread, I have heard a good number of engines 
> that are quiet as a mouse and no valve train noise.  The engine now in 
> my GT the are just down right noisy. Tried tighter, tried looser , 
> with no effect .Using VR-1 oil with a NAPA filter , engine has a bout 
> 35000 miles on it.   good oil pres..   Any ideas???
>
> paul
>
>> Paul Osborne
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/[email-masked]

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    You might want to check and see how much play in the rocker arm
    bushings &amp; shaft.<br>
    <br>
    CR<br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 5/18/2015 9:24 AM, Osborne, Paul via
      Mgs wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:[email-masked]"
      type="cite">
      <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
        charset=windows-1252">
      Since we are on this thread, I have heard a good number of engines
      that are quiet as a mouse and no valve train noise.  The engine
      now in my GT the are just down right noisy. Tried tighter, tried
      looser , with no effect .Using VR-1 oil with a NAPA filter ,
      engine has a bout 35000 miles on it.   good oil pres..   Any
      ideas??? 
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>paul</div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div apple-content-edited="true"><span class="Apple-style-span"
          style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px;">
          <blockquote
            cite="mid:[email-masked]"
            type="cite">
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                  <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0in;
                    margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 12pt; margin-left:
                    0in; font-size: 12pt; ">
                    Paul Osborne<br>
                    Department of Electrical and Computer Eng<br>
                    University of Rochester <br>
                    201 Hopeman Build RC<br>
                    Rochester NY 14627<br>
                  </p>
                </div>
              </span></span></blockquote>
          <div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 16px; ">585-275-5226</span><span
              class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre; ">
            </span></div>
          <div><br>
          </div>
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          </div>
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      <br>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________

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[email-masked]

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From: Clayton Kirkwood via Mgs <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 10:03:45 -0700

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Regarding Rule of Nine, I understand having 8 all the way up to set 1. But
there is a significant rotation between "real close to the top" in front of,
and after TDC. This can be seen with rotation the engine and seeing very
little to no movement. Also, if I am not mistaken 8 TDC is not perfectly in
line with BDC of 1; there is a bias. This means that when 8 is TDC, 1 is not
absolutely BDC ready for measurement. So the question is, how do you ensure,
with all of that slop, that you truly have BDC?

TIA,

Clayton

From: PaulHunt73 [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: Monday, May 18, 2015 12:25 AM
To: [email-masked]; [email-masked]; [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Mgs] tappet question

Depends on the figure you used.  Workshop Manual quotes 15 thou, cold.  I
don't like hot as the engine is continually cooling while I'm doing it.  I
use 14 thou which is loose and 16 thou which is lightly pinched so I can get
a better feel for it as I only check them very rarely.  As far as I know it
really only makes a difference if the engine gets so hot that the gaps close
up and you get combustion seepage past not quite closed valves, which burns
them.  Any loss of performance is only secondary.

In the early years not only did I find I was adjusting them every year,
sometimes opening them and sometimes closing them, but also getting
repeatable gaps from one turn of the engine to the next was a problem.  Then
I discovered that at the strict rule of nine (RON) points, several of the
valves were still changing gap.  Some of them had the biggest gap before RON
and some after.  Since discovering that perhaps 15 years or go or more I've
never had to alter them until I changed the head gasket last year, so hadn't
been checking tem every year anyway.

PaulH

----- Original Message ----- 

When I went to reset the tappet clearance, I found the old settings rather
sloppy. I reset them so that the gauge was snug - it slid in but it
definitely tight. Which is correct? I know that it makes a difference on
performance and full combustion. Yes, I did the checking while hot.

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lang=3DEN-US link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72"><div =
class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Regarding Rule of Nine, I understand having 8 =
all the way up to set 1. But there is a significant rotation between =
&#8220;real close to the top&#8221; in front of, and after TDC. This can =
be seen with rotation the engine and seeing very little to no movement. =
Also, if I am not mistaken 8 TDC is not perfectly in line with BDC of 1; =
there is a bias. This means that when 8 is TDC, 1 is not absolutely BDC =
ready for measurement. So the question is, how do you ensure, with all =
of that slop, that you truly have BDC?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>TIA,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Clayton<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b>From:</b> PaulHunt73 =
[mailto:[email-masked]] <br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, May 18, =
2015 12:25 AM<br><b>To:</b> [email-masked]; [email-masked]; =
[email-masked]<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Mgs] tappet =
question<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif'>Depends =
on the figure you used.&nbsp; Workshop Manual quotes 15 thou, =
cold.&nbsp; I don't like hot as the engine is continually cooling while =
I'm doing it.&nbsp; I use 14 thou which is loose&nbsp;and 16 thou which =
is&nbsp;lightly pinched&nbsp;so I can get a better feel for it as I only =
check them very rarely.&nbsp; As far as I know it really only makes a =
difference if the engine gets so hot that the gaps close up and you get =
combustion seepage past&nbsp;not quite closed valves, which burns =
them.&nbsp; Any loss of performance is only secondary.</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman",serif'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman",serif'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman",serif'>In the early years not only did I find I was adjusting =
them every year, sometimes opening them&nbsp;and sometimes closing them, =
but also getting repeatable gaps from one turn of the engine to the next =
was a problem.&nbsp; Then I discovered that at the strict rule of nine =
(RON) points, several of the valves were still changing gap.&nbsp; Some =
of them had the biggest gap before RON and some after.&nbsp; Since =
discovering that perhaps 15 years or go or more I've never had to alter =
them until I changed the head gasket last year, so hadn't been checking =
tem every year anyway.</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman",serif'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman",serif'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman",serif'>PaulH</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman",serif'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:=
5.0pt'><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>----- Original =
Message ----- <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman",serif'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>When I went to reset the tappet clearance, I found the =
old settings rather sloppy. I reset them so that the gauge was snug =
&#8211; it slid in but it definitely tight. Which is correct? I know =
that it makes a difference on performance and full combustion. Yes, I =
did the checking while =
hot.<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div></body></html>
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[email-masked]

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---

From: Richard Ewald via Mgs <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 20:36:48 -0700

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	charset=utf-8
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Houston we have a problem with terminology here.=20
TDC and BDC refer to the position of the piston in the bore, or in the firin=
g stroke. Period.=20
Piston at the exact top of its stroke?  The piston is at TDC. At the exact b=
ottom of its stroke? BDC.=20
#1 at the top of its stroke on compression?  The engine is at TDC.=20
What you are referring to is the valve being on the lobe or the heel of the c=
am.=20
If you doubt that when #s valves 1 & 3 are on the top of the lobe that valve=
s 6 & 8 are fully on the heel feel free to rotate the engine several degrees=
 one way or the other and see if the gap gets bigger (it won't)=20
This is because a camshaft is a circle (base circle) with a bump on one side=
. Anywhere on the heel is going to give you the same clearance.=20
There are even some engines that instruct you to put the engine @ TDC #1 adj=
ust half the valves then rotate the engine 360 degrees and then adjust the o=
ther half.=20
Rick

Sent from my iPhone

> On May 18, 2015, at 10:03, Clayton Kirkwood via Mgs <[email-masked]> w=
rote:
>=20
> Regarding Rule of Nine, I understand having 8 all the way up to set 1. But=
 there is a significant rotation between =E2=80=9Creal close to the top=E2=80=
=9D in front of, and after TDC. This can be seen with rotation the engine an=
d seeing very little to no movement. Also, if I am not mistaken 8 TDC is not=
 perfectly in line with BDC of 1; there is a bias. This means that when 8 is=
 TDC, 1 is not absolutely BDC ready for measurement. So the question is, how=
 do you ensure, with all of that slop, that you truly have BDC?
> =20
> =20
> =20
>=20

--Apple-Mail-94B7955F-2A1F-49BC-AC57-42F51B7A5FFE
	charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>Houston we have a problem with termino=
logy here.&nbsp;</div><div>TDC and BDC refer to the position of the piston i=
n the bore, or in the firing stroke. Period.&nbsp;</div><div>Piston at the e=
xact top of its stroke? &nbsp;The piston is at TDC. At the exact bottom of i=
ts stroke? BDC.&nbsp;</div><div>#1 at the top of its stroke on compression? &=
nbsp;The engine is at TDC.&nbsp;</div><div>What you are referring to is the v=
alve being on the lobe or the heel of the cam.&nbsp;</div><div>If you doubt t=
hat when #s valves 1 &amp; 3 are on the top of the lobe that valves 6 &amp; 8=
 are fully on the heel feel free to rotate the engine several degrees one wa=
y or the other and see if the gap gets bigger (it won't)&nbsp;</div><div>Thi=
s is because a camshaft is a circle (base circle) with a bump on one side. A=
nywhere on the heel is going to give you the same clearance.&nbsp;</div><div=
>There are even some engines that instruct you to put the engine @ TDC #1 ad=
just half the valves then rotate the engine 360 degrees and then adjust the o=
ther half.&nbsp;</div><div>Rick</div><div><br><br>Sent from my iPhone</div><=
div><br>On May 18, 2015, at 10:03, Clayton Kirkwood via Mgs &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><bl=
ockquote type=3D"cite"><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/htm=
l; charset=3Dus-ascii"><meta name=3D"Generator" content=3D"Microsoft Word 15=
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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--><div class=3D"WordSection1"><p class=3D"Ms=
oNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Regarding Rule of Nine, I understand h=
aving 8 all the way up to set 1. But there is a significant rotation between=
 =E2=80=9Creal close to the top=E2=80=9D in front of, and after TDC. This ca=
n be seen with rotation the engine and seeing very little to no movement. Al=
so, if I am not mistaken 8 TDC is not perfectly in line with BDC of 1; there=
 is a bias. This means that when 8 is TDC, 1 is not absolutely BDC ready for=
 measurement. So the question is, how do you ensure, with all of that slop, t=
hat you truly have BDC?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><sp=
an style=3D"color:#1F497D">TIA,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=
<span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNor=
mal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Clayton<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"=
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iv style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in=
 0in"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br></p></div></div></div></blockquote></body><=
/html>=

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[email-masked]

--===============2427923770671552235==--

---

From: Clayton Kirkwood via Mgs <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 21:00:29 -0700

--===============2061801108958865274==
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Thanks but it was the best word that came to mind at the time. I think =
you understand what I was after. So, several degrees either side =
won=E2=80=99t matter is what you=E2=80=99re saying. I was fairly certain =
that was true, however, aren=E2=80=99t the lobes of intake on 1 and out =
on 8 slightly shifted on the cam?=20

=20

TIA,

=20

Clayton

=20

From: Richard Ewald [mailto:[email-masked]]=20
Sent: Monday, May 18, 2015 8:37 PM
To: [email-masked]
Cc: <[email-masked]>; <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [Mgs] tappet question

=20

TDC and BDC refer to the position of the piston in the bore, or in the =
firing stroke. Period.=20

Piston at the exact top of its stroke?  The piston is at TDC. At the =
exact bottom of its stroke? BDC.=20

What you are referring to is the valve being on the lobe or the heel of =
the cam.=20

If you doubt that when #s valves 1 & 3 are on the top of the lobe that =
valves 6 & 8 are fully on the heel feel free to rotate the engine =
several degrees one way or the other and see if the gap gets bigger (it =
won't)=20

This is because a camshaft is a circle (base circle) with a bump on one =
side. Anywhere on the heel is going to give you the same clearance.=20

There are even some engines that instruct you to put the engine @ TDC #1 =
adjust half the valves then rotate the engine 360 degrees and then =
adjust the other half.=20

Rick

Sent from my iPhone

On May 18, 2015, at 10:03, Clayton Kirkwood via Mgs <[email-masked] =

Regarding Rule of Nine, I understand having 8 all the way up to set 1. =
But there is a significant rotation between =E2=80=9Creal close to the =
top=E2=80=9D in front of, and after TDC. This can be seen with rotation =
the engine and seeing very little to no movement. Also, if I am not =
mistaken 8 TDC is not perfectly in line with BDC of 1; there is a bias. =
This means that when 8 is TDC, 1 is not absolutely BDC ready for =
measurement. So the question is, how do you ensure, with all of that =
slop, that you truly have BDC?

=20

TIA,

=20

Clayton

=20

=20

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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US =
link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72"><div class=3DWordSection1><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Thanks but it was the =
best word that came to mind at the time. I think you understand what I =
was after. So, several degrees either side won=E2=80=99t matter is what =
you=E2=80=99re saying. I was fairly certain that was true, however, =
aren=E2=80=99t the lobes of intake on 1 and out on 8 slightly shifted on =
the cam? <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>TIA,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Clayton<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b>From:</b> Richard Ewald =
[mailto:[email-masked]] <br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, May 18, 2015 =
8:37 PM<br><b>To:</b> [email-masked]<br><b>Cc:</b> =
&lt;[email-masked]&gt;; =
&lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Mgs] tappet =
question<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Houston =
we have a problem with terminology here.&nbsp;<span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>TDC and BDC refer to the position of the piston in the =
bore, or in the firing stroke. Period.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Piston at the exact top of its stroke? &nbsp;The =
piston is at TDC. At the exact bottom of its stroke? =
BDC.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>#1 at the top =
of its stroke on compression? &nbsp;The engine is at =
TDC.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>What you are =
referring to is the valve being on the lobe or the heel of the =
cam.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>If you doubt =
that when #s valves 1 &amp; 3 are on the top of the lobe that valves 6 =
&amp; 8 are fully on the heel feel free to rotate the engine several =
degrees one way or the other and see if the gap gets bigger (it =
won't)&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>This is =
because a camshaft is a circle (base circle) with a bump on one side. =
Anywhere on the heel is going to give you the same =
clearance.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>There are =
even some engines that instruct you to put the engine @ TDC #1 adjust =
half the valves then rotate the engine 360 degrees and then adjust the =
other half.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Rick<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><br><br>Sent from my =
iPhone<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>On May 18, 2015, at 10:03, Clayton =
Kirkwood via Mgs &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Regarding Rule of Nine, =
I understand having 8 all the way up to set 1. But there is a =
significant rotation between =E2=80=9Creal close to the top=E2=80=9D in =
front of, and after TDC. This can be seen with rotation the engine and =
seeing very little to no movement. Also, if I am not mistaken 8 TDC is =
not perfectly in line with BDC of 1; there is a bias. This means that =
when 8 is TDC, 1 is not absolutely BDC ready for measurement. So the =
question is, how do you ensure, with all of that slop, that you truly =
have BDC?</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>TIA,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Clayton</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></div></blockquote></div></b=
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[email-masked]

--===============2061801108958865274==--

---

From: PaulHunt73 via Mgs <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 10:21:40 +0100

--===============6775120814129002533==
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As said elsewhere TDC and BDC are not relevant, if you are referring to =
the piston.  If you look at the valve timing the inlet lobe is at its =
peak 70-odd degrees before BDC, and the exhaust valve is at it's peak =
about the same distance after BDC.  So the back of the lobes are under =
the followers 180 degrees from there, which is more than 70 degrees =
before TDC and after TDC respectively.

But it shouldn't make a difference, look at the cam profile, and the =
base circle should extend for significantly more than half way round the =
cam, in theory giving more than 180 of engine rotation where the =
clearance should be the same.

Note in theory, which is why I said it's one of the reasons why I find =
the position of greatest gap to adjust them, which on mine (and others I =
have done) can be several degrees either side of the strict RON point. =20

Also, whilst the dynamic forces on the piston etc. are slightly =
different on compression and expansion etc, statically TDC is directly =
above BDC, how could it be anything else?

PaulH.

But there is a significant rotation between "real close to the top" in =
have BDC?

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<DIV><FONT size=3D2>As said elsewhere TDC and BDC are not relevant, if =
you are=20
referring to the piston.&nbsp; If you look at the valve timing the inlet =
lobe is=20
at its peak 70-odd degrees before BDC, and the exhaust valve is at it's =
peak=20
about the same distance after BDC.&nbsp; So the back of the lobes are =
under the=20
followers 180 degrees from there, which is more than 70 degrees before =
TDC and=20
after TDC respectively.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>But it shouldn't make a difference, look at the cam =
profile,=20
and the base circle should extend for significantly more than half way =
round the=20
cam, in theory giving more than 180 of engine rotation where the =
clearance=20
should be the same.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Note in theory, which is why I said it's one of the =
reasons=20
why I find the position of greatest gap to adjust them, which on mine =
(and=20
others I have done) can be several degrees either&nbsp;side of the =
strict RON=20
point.&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Also, whilst the dynamic forces on the piston etc. =
are=20
slightly different on compression and expansion etc, statically&nbsp;TDC =
is=20
directly above BDC, how could it be anything else?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>PaulH.</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>&nbsp; </FONT>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; =
PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT><BR></DIV>
  <DIV class=3DWordSection1>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: #1f497d">Regarding Rule of =
Nine, I=20
  understand having 8 all the way up to set 1. But there is a =
significant=20
  rotation between =93real close to the top=94 in front of, and after =
TDC. This can=20
  be seen with rotation the engine and seeing very little to no =
movement. Also,=20
  if I am not mistaken 8 TDC is not perfectly in line with BDC of 1; =
there is a=20
  bias. This means that when 8 is TDC, 1 is not absolutely BDC ready for =

  measurement. So the question is, how do you ensure, with all of that =
slop,=20
  that you truly have =
BDC?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_004C_01D0921D.98AC25F0--

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[email-masked]

--===============6775120814129002533==--

---

From: Richard Ewald via Mgs <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 07:00:03 -0700

--===============3534665702421129899==

--001a11c3437422729705166fbaa1
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Why would they be?  The lobes for #1 and #4 should be 180 degrees apart as
should the lobes for #2  and #3.
If they weren't you would have a very odd sounding and rough idle.
If you have ever listened to a air cooled VW motor, the source of their
funny sounding idle is they fire one cylinder (#3) a bit retarded so it
runs just a bit cooler as the oil cooler is right on top of the #3 cylinder=
.
But like I said, feel free to pull your valve cover and verify what I
said.  This is the internet, for all you know, I am an 16 year old red head
stringing you along.
Rick

On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 9:00 PM, Clayton Kirkwood via Mgs <
[email-masked]> wrote:

> Thanks but it was the best word that came to mind at the time. I think yo=
u
> understand what I was after. So, several degrees either side won=E2=80=99=
t matter
> is what you=E2=80=99re saying. I was fairly certain that was true, howeve=
r, aren=E2=80=99t
> the lobes of intake on 1 and out on 8 slightly shifted on the cam?
>
>
>
> TIA,
>
>
>
> Clayton
>
>
>
> *From:* Richard Ewald [mailto:[email-masked]]
> *Sent:* Monday, May 18, 2015 8:37 PM
> *To:* [email-masked]
> *Cc:* <[email-masked]>; <[email-masked]>
> *Subject:* Re: [Mgs] tappet question
>
>
>
> Houston we have a problem with terminology here.
>
> TDC and BDC refer to the position of the piston in the bore, or in the
> firing stroke. Period.
>
> Piston at the exact top of its stroke?  The piston is at TDC. At the exac=
t
> bottom of its stroke? BDC.
>
> #1 at the top of its stroke on compression?  The engine is at TDC.
>
> What you are referring to is the valve being on the lobe or the heel of
> the cam.
>
> If you doubt that when #s valves 1 & 3 are on the top of the lobe that
> valves 6 & 8 are fully on the heel feel free to rotate the engine several
> degrees one way or the other and see if the gap gets bigger (it won't)
>
> This is because a camshaft is a circle (base circle) with a bump on one
> side. Anywhere on the heel is going to give you the same clearance.
>
> There are even some engines that instruct you to put the engine @ TDC #1
> adjust half the valves then rotate the engine 360 degrees and then adjust
> the other half.
>
> Rick
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> On May 18, 2015, at 10:03, Clayton Kirkwood via Mgs <[email-masked]>
> wrote:
>
> Regarding Rule of Nine, I understand having 8 all the way up to set 1. Bu=
t
> there is a significant rotation between =E2=80=9Creal close to the top=E2=
=80=9D in front
> of, and after TDC. This can be seen with rotation the engine and seeing
> very little to no movement. Also, if I am not mistaken 8 TDC is not
> perfectly in line with BDC of 1; there is a bias. This means that when 8 =
is
> TDC, 1 is not absolutely BDC ready for measurement. So the question is, h=
ow
> Unsubscribe:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/[email-masked]
>
>

--001a11c3437422729705166fbaa1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Why would they be?=C2=A0 The lobes for #1 and #4 should be=
 180 degrees apart as should the lobes for #2 =C2=A0and #3.<div>If they wer=
en&#39;t you would have a very odd sounding and rough idle.</div><div>If yo=
u have ever listened to a air cooled VW motor, the source of their funny so=
unding idle is they fire one cylinder (#3) a bit retarded so it runs just a=
 bit cooler as the oil cooler is right on top of the #3 cylinder.</div><div=
>But like I said, feel free to pull your valve cover and verify what I said=
.=C2=A0 This is the internet, for all you know, I am an 16 year old red hea=
d stringing you along.</div><div>Rick</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"=
><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 9:00 PM, Clayton Ki=
rkwood via Mgs <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;=
padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72"><d=
iv><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">Thanks but it was t=
he best word that came to mind at the time. I think you understand what I w=
as after. So, several degrees either side won=E2=80=99t matter is what you=
=E2=80=99re saying. I was fairly certain that was true, however, aren=E2=80=
=99t the lobes of intake on 1 and out on 8 slightly shifted on the cam? <u>=
</u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">=
<u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:=
#1f497d">TIA,<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D=
"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span=
 style=3D"color:#1f497d">Clayton<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNor=
mal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><div><div=
 style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in =
0in"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Richard Ewald [mailto:<a href=3D"m=
ailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a=
>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, May 18, 2015 8:37 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a href=3D"m=
ailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a><br><b>Cc=
:</b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">mgac=
[email-masked]</a>&gt;; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" targ=
et=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<span class=3D""><br><b>Subject:</b=
> Re: [Mgs] tappet question<u></u><u></u></span></p></div></div><p class=3D=
"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Houston we =
have a problem with terminology here.=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"=
><u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><div class=3D"h5"><div><p class=3D"Mso=
Normal">TDC and BDC refer to the position of the piston in the bore, or in =
the firing stroke. Period.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"Ms=
oNormal">Piston at the exact top of its stroke?=C2=A0 The piston is at TDC.=
 At the exact bottom of its stroke? BDC.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div>=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">#1 at the top of its stroke on compression?=C2=A0 Th=
e engine is at TDC.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal=
">What you are referring to is the valve being on the lobe or the heel of t=
he cam.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">If you dou=
bt that when #s valves 1 &amp; 3 are on the top of the lobe that valves 6 &=
amp; 8 are fully on the heel feel free to rotate the engine several degrees=
 one way or the other and see if the gap gets bigger (it won&#39;t)=C2=A0<u=
></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">This is because a camshaf=
t is a circle (base circle) with a bump on one side. Anywhere on the heel i=
s going to give you the same clearance.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><=
p class=3D"MsoNormal">There are even some engines that instruct you to put =
the engine @ TDC #1 adjust half the valves then rotate the engine 360 degre=
es and then adjust the other half.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p cla=
ss=3D"MsoNormal">Rick<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b=
r><br>Sent from my iPhone<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal=
" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>On May 18, 2015, at 10:03, Clayton Kir=
kwood via Mgs &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">m=
[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p></div><blockquote style=
=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span styl=
e=3D"color:#1f497d">Regarding Rule of Nine, I understand having 8 all the w=
ay up to set 1. But there is a significant rotation between =E2=80=9Creal c=
lose to the top=E2=80=9D in front of, and after TDC. This can be seen with =
rotation the engine and seeing very little to no movement. Also, if I am no=
t mistaken 8 TDC is not perfectly in line with BDC of 1; there is a bias. T=
his means that when 8 is TDC, 1 is not absolutely BDC ready for measurement=
. So the question is, how do you ensure, with all of that slop, that you tr=
uly have BDC?</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D=
"color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span=
 style=3D"color:#1f497d">TIA,</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal=
"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">Clayton</span><u></u><u></u></p><p=
 class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u><=
/u></p><div><div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;paddin=
g:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><=
/div></blockquote></div></div></div></div><br>_____________________________=
__________________<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a><br>
//www.team.net/donate.html</a><br>
Archive: <a href=3D"http://www.team.net/archive" target=3D"_blank">http://w=
ww.team.net/archive</a><br>
Forums: <a href=3D"http://www.team.net/forums" target=3D"_blank">http://www=
.team.net/forums</a><br>
Unsubscribe: <a href=3D"http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/richard.e=
[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs=
/[email-masked]</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>

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[email-masked]

--===============3534665702421129899==--

---

From: Ron Sanborn via Mgs <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 12:08:32 -0500

--===============7101766585633045860==
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Crane Cams recommends the following method
of valve adjustment.   check their website

Set the intake valve as the exhaust valve for that cylinder starts to =
open
Set the exhaust when the intake valve is almost fully closed.

I have used this for years and tested it by observing cam/valve =
locations
when doing double overhead cam motors.  it works

art d

From: Richard Ewald via Mgs=20
Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2015 9:00 AM
To: Clayton Kirkwood=20
Cc: MG List=20
Subject: Re: [Mgs] tappet question

Why would they be?  The lobes for #1 and #4 should be 180 degrees apart =
as should the lobes for #2  and #3.=20
If they weren't you would have a very odd sounding and rough idle.
If you have ever listened to a air cooled VW motor, the source of their =
funny sounding idle is they fire one cylinder (#3) a bit retarded so it =
runs just a bit cooler as the oil cooler is right on top of the #3 =
cylinder.
But like I said, feel free to pull your valve cover and verify what I =
said.  This is the internet, for all you know, I am an 16 year old red =
head stringing you along.
Rick

On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 9:00 PM, Clayton Kirkwood via Mgs =
<[email-masked]> wrote:

  TIA,

  Clayton

  What you are referring to is the valve being on the lobe or the heel =
of the cam.=20

  This is because a camshaft is a circle (base circle) with a bump on =
one side. Anywhere on the heel is going to give you the same clearance.=20

  There are even some engines that instruct you to put the engine @ TDC =
#1 adjust half the valves then rotate the engine 360 degrees and then =
adjust the other half.=20

  Rick

  Sent from my iPhone

  On May 18, 2015, at 10:03, Clayton Kirkwood via Mgs =
<[email-masked]> wrote:

    Regarding Rule of Nine, I understand having 8 all the way up to set =
1. But there is a significant rotation between =E2=80=9Creal close to =
the top=E2=80=9D in front of, and after TDC. This can be seen with =
rotation the engine and seeing very little to no movement. Also, if I am =
not mistaken 8 TDC is not perfectly in line with BDC of 1; there is a =
bias. This means that when 8 is TDC, 1 is not absolutely BDC ready for =
measurement. So the question is, how do you ensure, with all of that =
slop, that you truly have BDC?

    TIA,

    Clayton

  [email-masked]
  Unsubscribe: =

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------
_______________________________________________

[email-masked]
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Unsubscribe: =
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/[email-masked]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2015.0.5941 / Virus Database: 4347/9817 - Release Date: =
05/19/15

------=_NextPart_000_003C_01D0922C.867D2870
	charset="utf-8"
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<HTML><HEAD></HEAD>
<BODY dir=3Dltr>
<DIV dir=3Dltr>
<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000">
<DIV>Crane Cams recommends the following method</DIV>
<DIV>of valve adjustment.&nbsp;&nbsp; check their website</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Set the intake valve as the exhaust valve for that cylinder starts =
to=20
open</DIV>
<DIV>Set the exhaust when the intake valve is almost fully closed.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I have used this for years and tested it by observing cam/valve=20
locations</DIV>
<DIV>when doing double overhead cam motors.&nbsp; it works</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>art d</DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D'FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: =
"Calibri"; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; =
DISPLAY: inline'>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt tahoma">
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV style=3D"font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A =
title=[email-masked]=20
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">Richard Ewald via Mgs</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, May 19, 2015 9:00 AM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=[email-masked]=20
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">Clayton Kirkwood</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Cc:</B> <A title=[email-masked] =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">MG=20
List</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Mgs] tappet question</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D'FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: =
"Calibri"; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; =
DISPLAY: inline'>
<DIV dir=3Dltr>Why would they be?&nbsp; The lobes for #1 and #4 should =
be 180=20
degrees apart as should the lobes for #2&nbsp; and #3.=20
<DIV>If they weren't you would have a very odd sounding and rough =
idle.</DIV>
<DIV>If you have ever listened to a air cooled VW motor, the source of =
their=20
funny sounding idle is they fire one cylinder (#3) a bit retarded so it =
runs=20
just a bit cooler as the oil cooler is right on top of the #3 =
cylinder.</DIV>
<DIV>But like I said, feel free to pull your valve cover and verify what =
I=20
said.&nbsp; This is the internet, for all you know, I am an 16 year old =
red head=20
stringing you along.</DIV>
<DIV>Rick</DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=3Dgmail_extra>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV class=3Dgmail_quote>On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 9:00 PM, Clayton =
Kirkwood via Mgs=20
<SPAN dir=3Dltr>&lt;<A href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]"=20
target=3D_blank>[email-masked]</A>&gt;</SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc =
1px solid">
  <DIV lang=3DEN-US vlink=3D"#954F72" link=3D"#0563C1">
  <DIV>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: #1f497d">Thanks but it was =
the best=20
  word that came to mind at the time. I think you understand what I was =
after.=20
  So, several degrees either side won=E2=80=99t matter is what =
you=E2=80=99re saying. I was=20
  fairly certain that was true, however, aren=E2=80=99t the lobes of =
intake on 1 and out=20
  on 8 slightly shifted on the cam? <U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"COLOR: #1f497d"><U></U><U></U></SPAN>&nbsp;</P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: =
#1f497d">TIA,<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"COLOR: #1f497d"><U></U><U></U></SPAN>&nbsp;</P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
  style=3D"COLOR: #1f497d">Clayton<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"COLOR: #1f497d"><U></U><U></U></SPAN>&nbsp;</P>
  <DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BORDER-TOP: #e1e1e1 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; =
BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; =
PADDING-LEFT: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in">
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><B>From:</B> Richard Ewald [mailto:<A=20
  href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]"=20
  target=3D_blank>[email-masked]</A>] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, =
May 18,=20
  2015 8:37 PM<BR><B>To:</B> <A href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]"=20
  target=3D_blank>[email-masked]</A><BR><B>Cc:</B> &lt;<A=20
  href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]"=20
  target=3D_blank>[email-masked]</A>&gt;; &lt;<A=20
  href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]"=20
  target=3D_blank>[email-masked]</A>&gt;<SPAN><BR><B>Subject:</B> =
Re: [Mgs]=20
  tappet question<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><U></U><U></U>&nbsp;</P>
  <DIV>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal>Houston we have a problem with terminology here. =
<SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><U></U><U></U></SPAN></P></DIV>
  <DIV>
  <DIV class=3Dh5>
  <DIV>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal>TDC and BDC refer to the position of the piston =
in the=20
  bore, or in the firing stroke. Period. <U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
  <DIV>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal>Piston at the exact top of its stroke?&nbsp; The =
piston is=20
  at TDC. At the exact bottom of its stroke? BDC. =
<U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
  <DIV>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal>#1 at the top of its stroke on compression?&nbsp; =
The=20
  engine is at TDC. <U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
  <DIV>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal>What you are referring to is the valve being on =
the lobe or=20
  the heel of the cam. <U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
  <DIV>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal>If you doubt that when #s valves 1 &amp; 3 are on =
the top=20
  of the lobe that valves 6 &amp; 8 are fully on the heel feel free to =
rotate=20
  the engine several degrees one way or the other and see if the gap =
gets bigger=20
  (it won't) <U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
  <DIV>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal>This is because a camshaft is a circle (base =
circle) with a=20
  bump on one side. Anywhere on the heel is going to give you the same=20
  clearance. <U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
  <DIV>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal>There are even some engines that instruct you to =
put the=20
  engine @ TDC #1 adjust half the valves then rotate the engine 360 =
degrees and=20
  then adjust the other half. <U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
  <DIV>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal>Rick<U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
  <DIV>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><BR><BR>Sent from my =
iPhone<U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
  <DIV>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><BR>On May 18, =
2015, at 10:03,=20
  Clayton Kirkwood via Mgs &lt;<A href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]"=20
  target=3D_blank>[email-masked]</A>&gt; =
wrote:<U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; MARGIN-TOP: 5pt">
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: #1f497d">Regarding Rule =
of Nine, I=20
    understand having 8 all the way up to set 1. But there is a =
significant=20
    rotation between =E2=80=9Creal close to the top=E2=80=9D in front =
of, and after TDC. This=20
    can be seen with rotation the engine and seeing very little to no =
movement.=20
    Also, if I am not mistaken 8 TDC is not perfectly in line with BDC =
of 1;=20
    there is a bias. This means that when 8 is TDC, 1 is not absolutely =
BDC=20
    ready for measurement. So the question is, how do you ensure, with =
all of=20
    that slop, that you truly have BDC?</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
    style=3D"COLOR: #1f497d"></SPAN><U></U><U></U>&nbsp;</P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"COLOR: #1f497d">TIA,</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
    style=3D"COLOR: #1f497d"></SPAN><U></U><U></U>&nbsp;</P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
    style=3D"COLOR: #1f497d">Clayton</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P>
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    style=3D"COLOR: #1f497d"></SPAN><U></U><U></U>&nbsp;</P>
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PADDING-LEFT: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in">
    <P=20
  =
class=3DMsoNormal><U></U><U></U>&nbsp;</P></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>=
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[email-masked]

--===============7101766585633045860==--

---

From: Clayton Kirkwood via Mgs <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 10:55:32 -0700

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As I said in a different post, I made the mistake of using TDC and BDC too
freely, as I meant the TDC and BDC of the cam lobe, and actually that isn't
accurate, it is degrees before and after the top of lobe, which can now call
BTL and ATL:<)))) (before top of lobe.)  While I agree that the lobe leads
in to BTL and follows ATL is still raised over the bottom of the lobe (BL),
I know the lobes don't extend 180 degrees, 70-90 degrees either side of Top
Lobe and still keep the follower up all the way. As you then kind of  point
out, and what my question was, how far TL can be assumed and then whether
that lined up 180 degrees opposite the other RON valve. I now understand
fully that the follower (I think it's the right word) will stay on the TL
for an extended time or degrees. The last question still remains unstated:
does the TL of valve 8 mean that you have found the BL of valve 1? If I
remember correctly, they aren't 180 opposite, input being before or after
exhaust by some degrees. Is the difference of opposition so insignificant
that it doesn't matter? Close to TL on one valve is also close enough on the
other valve? 

Hope that is more clear.

Clayton

From: PaulHunt73 [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2015 2:22 AM
To: [email-masked]; [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Mgs] tappet question

As said elsewhere TDC and BDC are not relevant, if you are referring to the
piston.  If you look at the valve timing the inlet lobe is at its peak
70-odd degrees before BDC, and the exhaust valve is at it's peak about the
same distance after BDC.  So the back of the lobes are under the followers
180 degrees from there, which is more than 70 degrees before TDC and after
TDC respectively.

But it shouldn't make a difference, look at the cam profile, and the base
circle should extend for significantly more than half way round the cam, in
theory giving more than 180 of engine rotation where the clearance should be
the same.

Note in theory, which is why I said it's one of the reasons why I find the
position of greatest gap to adjust them, which on mine (and others I have
done) can be several degrees either side of the strict RON point.  

Also, whilst the dynamic forces on the piston etc. are slightly different on
compression and expansion etc, statically TDC is directly above BDC, how
could it be anything else?

PaulH.

  ----- Original Message ----- 

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<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body bgcolor=3Dwhite =
lang=3DEN-US link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72"><div =
class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>As I said in a different post, I made the =
mistake of using TDC and BDC too freely, as I meant the TDC and BDC of =
the cam lobe, and actually that isn&#8217;t accurate, it is degrees =
before and after the top of lobe, which can now call BTL and =
ATL:&lt;)))) (before top of lobe&#8230;)&nbsp; While I agree that the =
lobe leads in to BTL and follows ATL is still raised over the bottom of =
the lobe (BL), I know the lobes don&#8217;t extend 180 degrees, 70-90 =
degrees either side of Top Lobe and still keep the follower up all the =
way. As you then kind of &nbsp;point out, and what my question was, how =
far TL can be assumed and then whether that lined up 180 degrees =
opposite the other RON valve. I now understand fully that the follower =
(I think it&#8217;s the right word) will stay on the TL for an extended =
time or degrees. The last question still remains unstated: does the TL =
of valve 8 mean that you have found the BL of valve 1? If I remember =
correctly, they aren&#8217;t 180 opposite, input being before or after =
exhaust by some degrees. Is the difference of opposition so =
insignificant that it doesn&#8217;t matter? Close to TL on one valve is =
also close enough on the other valve? <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Hope that is more =
clear.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Clayton<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b>From:</b> PaulHunt73 =
[mailto:[email-masked]] <br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, May 19, =
2015 2:22 AM<br><b>To:</b> [email-masked]; =
[email-masked]<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Mgs] tappet =
question<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif'>As said =
elsewhere TDC and BDC are not relevant, if you are referring to the =
piston.&nbsp; If you look at the valve timing the inlet lobe is at its =
peak 70-odd degrees before BDC, and the exhaust valve is at it's peak =
about the same distance after BDC.&nbsp; So the back of the lobes are =
under the followers 180 degrees from there, which is more than 70 =
degrees before TDC and after TDC respectively.</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman",serif'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman",serif'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman",serif'>But it shouldn't make a difference, look at the cam =
profile, and the base circle should extend for significantly more than =
half way round the cam, in theory giving more than 180 of engine =
rotation where the clearance should be the same.</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman",serif'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman",serif'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman",serif'>Note in theory, which is why I said it's one of the =
reasons why I find the position of greatest gap to adjust them, which on =
mine (and others I have done) can be several degrees either&nbsp;side of =
the strict RON point.&nbsp; </span><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman",serif'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman",serif'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman",serif'>Also, whilst the dynamic forces on the piston etc. are =
slightly different on compression and expansion etc, statically&nbsp;TDC =
is directly above BDC, how could it be anything else?</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman",serif'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman",serif'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman",serif'>PaulH.</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman",serif'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman",serif'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman",serif'>&nbsp; </span><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif'>----- =
Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:=
5.0pt'><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman",serif'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Regarding Rule of Nine, =
I understand having 8 all the way up to set 1. But there is a =
significant rotation between &#8220;real close to the top&#8221; in =
front of, and after TDC. This can be seen with rotation the engine and =
seeing very little to no movement. Also, if I am not mistaken 8 TDC is =
not perfectly in line with BDC of 1; there is a bias. This means that =
when 8 is TDC, 1 is not absolutely BDC ready for measurement. So the =
question is, how do you ensure, with all of that slop, that you truly =
have BDC?<o:p></o:p></span></p></blockquote></div></body></html>
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[email-masked]

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---

From: Clayton Kirkwood via Mgs <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 11:47:08 -0700

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Funny red head:<)) Yes, I agree that the input lobes of 1 and 4, and 2 =
and 3 are 180 degrees apart. But I don=E2=80=99t think that intake 1 and =
exhaust 8 are 180 degrees apart. Intake cylinder 1 TL comes a few =
degrees before or after exhaust of cylinder 4 (valves 1 and 8 =
respectively). I think it is exhaust opens a little early before BDC of =
piston and closes at TDC, whilst intake opens a little after TDC of =
piston and closes right at BDC. That=E2=80=99s why you can find modified =
cam profiles: to change the performance characteristics.

=20

But then I am a 71 year old blonde being strung along:<)

=20

Clayton

=20

From: Richard Ewald [mailto:[email-masked]]=20
Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2015 7:00 AM
To: Clayton Kirkwood
Cc: MG List
Subject: Re: [Mgs] tappet question

=20

Why would they be?  The lobes for #1 and #4 should be 180 degrees apart =
as should the lobes for #2  and #3.

Rick

=20

=20

TIA,

=20

Clayton

=20

From: Richard Ewald [mailto:[email-masked] =
Sent: Monday, May 18, 2015 8:37 PM
Subject: Re: [Mgs] tappet question

=20

Rick

Sent from my iPhone

=20

TIA,

=20

Clayton

=20

=20

=20

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	color:purple;
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>Funny red head:&lt;)) Yes, I agree that the input lobes of 1 and 4, and =
2 and 3 are 180 degrees apart. But I don=E2=80=99t think that intake 1 =
and exhaust 8 are 180 degrees apart. Intake cylinder 1 TL comes a few =
degrees before or after exhaust of cylinder 4 (valves 1 and 8 =
respectively). I think it is exhaust opens a little early before BDC of =
piston and closes at TDC, whilst intake opens a little after TDC of =
piston and closes right at BDC. That=E2=80=99s why you can find modified =
cam profiles: to change the performance =
characteristics.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>But then I am a 71 year old blonde being strung =
along:&lt;)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>Clayton<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span><=
/b><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> =
Richard Ewald [mailto:[email-masked]] <br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, =
May 19, 2015 7:00 AM<br><b>To:</b> Clayton Kirkwood<br><b>Cc:</b> MG =
List<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Mgs] tappet =
question<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Why =
would they be?&nbsp; The lobes for #1 and #4 should be 180 degrees apart =
as should the lobes for #2 &nbsp;and #3.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>If they weren't you would have a very odd sounding and =
rough idle.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>If you have =
ever listened to a air cooled VW motor, the source of their funny =
sounding idle is they fire one cylinder (#3) a bit retarded so it runs =
just a bit cooler as the oil cooler is right on top of the #3 =
cylinder.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>But like I said, =
feel free to pull your valve cover and verify what I said.&nbsp; This is =
the internet, for all you know, I am an 16 year old red head stringing =
you along.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Rick<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>On Mon, =
May 18, 2015 at 9:00 PM, Clayton Kirkwood via Mgs &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid =
#CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Thanks but it was the best word that came to =
mind at the time. I think you understand what I was after. So, several =
degrees either side won=E2=80=99t matter is what you=E2=80=99re saying. =
I was fairly certain that was true, however, aren=E2=80=99t the lobes of =
intake on 1 and out on 8 slightly shifted on the cam? =
</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>TIA,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Clayton</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b>From:</b>=
 Richard Ewald [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, =
May 18, 2015 8:37 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a><br><b>Cc:</b> &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt;; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: =
[Mgs] tappet question<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Houston we =
have a problem with terminology =
here.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>TDC and BDC =
refer to the position of the piston in the bore, or in the firing =
stroke. Period.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Piston at =
the exact top of its stroke?&nbsp; The piston is at TDC. At the exact =
bottom of its stroke? BDC.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>#1 at the =
top of its stroke on compression?&nbsp; The engine is at =
TDC.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>What you =
are referring to is the valve being on the lobe or the heel of the =
cam.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>If you =
doubt that when #s valves 1 &amp; 3 are on the top of the lobe that =
valves 6 &amp; 8 are fully on the heel feel free to rotate the engine =
several degrees one way or the other and see if the gap gets bigger (it =
won't)&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>This is =
because a camshaft is a circle (base circle) with a bump on one side. =
Anywhere on the heel is going to give you the same =
clearance.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>There are =
even some engines that instruct you to put the engine @ TDC #1 adjust =
half the valves then rotate the engine 360 degrees and then adjust the =
other half.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Rick<o:p></o=
:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><br><br>Sent=
 from my iPhone<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>On May 18, =
2015, at 10:03, Clayton Kirkwood via Mgs &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Regarding Rule of Nine, I understand having 8 =
all the way up to set 1. But there is a significant rotation between =
=E2=80=9Creal close to the top=E2=80=9D in front of, and after TDC. This =
can be seen with rotation the engine and seeing very little to no =
movement. Also, if I am not mistaken 8 TDC is not perfectly in line with =
BDC of 1; there is a bias. This means that when 8 is TDC, 1 is not =
absolutely BDC ready for measurement. So the question is, how do you =
ensure, with all of that slop, that you truly have =
BDC?</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>TIA,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Clayton</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>______________________________________=
_________<br><br><a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a><br>Donate: <a =
href=3D"http://www.team.net/donate.html" =
target=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a><br>Suggested =
annual donation&nbsp; $12.75<br>Archive: <a =
href=3D"http://www.team.net/archive" =
target=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/archive</a><br>Forums: <a =
href=3D"http://www.team.net/forums" =
target=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/forums</a><br>Unsubscribe: <a =
href=3D"http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/[email-masked]=
" =
target=3D"_blank">http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/richard.ewald=
@gmail.com</a><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></div></body></html>
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[email-masked]

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---

From: PaulHunt73 via Mgs <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 20 May 2015 09:02:09 +0100

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As far as I have seen when adjusting valves any valve is at peak lift at =
only one point on the cam.  The tip of the lobe is rounded, so as it =
passes under the flat tappet it is only when the centre of the lobe is =
under the centre of the follower that you will have peak lift.  Very =
nearly peak lift a few degrees either side of that, but not much.

You mention comparing valves 1 and 8, but talk about inlet and exhaust.  =
It's true that inlet and exhaust lobes are not 180 degrees apart - the =
lobe of an inlet is 16 degrees away from the heel of an exhaust and =
vice-versa, but 1 and 8 are both exhaust valves.  And because those =
valves are on cylinders 1 and 4 which fire one complete engine =
revolution apart it wouldn't surprise me if their lobes and heels *are* =
180 degrees apart, which is probably why someone came up with the Rule =
of Nine.  All the pairs in the Rule of Nine are the same valve - inlet =
or exhaust - and all on 'opposite' halves of the engine.

But all this is getting into the realm of how many angels can dance on =
the head of a pin.  The fact remains that in theory there is a =
significant range of cam rotation where the clearance should be at a =
maximum, meaning that it shouldn't be critical to get the opposite valve =
exactly on the peak of its lobe.  But in practice, on a cam by cam =
basis, that doesn't seem to be the case and one needs to check where the =
point of maximum gap is on any valve, and see how that compares with the =
point of maximum lift on its partner valve.  As I've said a couple of =
times on engines I've checked the two don't always occur at the same =
time on various valves.  It's also the case that the period of maximum =
gap has been surprisingly narrow, like the period of maximum lift, =
whereas on drawings of various cam profiles the base circle i.e. where =
the clearance should be maximum occupies more than 180 degrees.

PaulH.
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  ... does the TL of valve 8 mean that you have found the BL of valve 1? =
If I remember correctly, they aren't 180 opposite, input being before or =
after exhaust by some degrees. Is the difference of opposition so =
insignificant that it doesn't matter?
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<DIV><FONT size=3D2>As far as I have seen when adjusting valves any =
valve is at=20
peak lift at only one point on the cam.&nbsp; The tip of the lobe is =
rounded, so=20
as it passes under the flat tappet it is only when the centre of the =
lobe is=20
under the centre of the follower that you will have peak lift.&nbsp; =
Very nearly=20
peak lift a few degrees either side of that, but not much.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>You mention comparing valves 1 and 8, but talk about =
inlet and=20
exhaust.&nbsp; It's true that inlet and exhaust lobes are not 180 =
degrees apart=20
- the lobe of an inlet is 16 degrees away from the heel of an exhaust =
and=20
vice-versa, but&nbsp;1 and 8 are both exhaust valves.&nbsp; And because =
those=20
valves&nbsp;are on cylinders 1 and 4 which fire one complete engine =
revolution=20
apart&nbsp;it wouldn't surprise me if their lobes and heels *are* 180 =
degrees=20
apart, which is probably why someone came up with the Rule of =
Nine.&nbsp; All=20
the pairs in the Rule of Nine are the same valve - inlet or exhaust - =
and all=20
on&nbsp;'opposite' halves of the engine.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>But all this is getting into the realm of how many =
angels can=20
dance on the head of a pin.&nbsp; The fact remains that in theory there =
is a=20
significant range of cam&nbsp;rotation where the clearance should be at =
a=20
maximum, meaning that it shouldn't be critical to get the opposite valve =
exactly=20
on the peak of its lobe.&nbsp; But in practice, on a cam by cam basis, =
that=20
doesn't seem to be the case and one needs to check where the point of =
maximum=20
gap is on any valve, and see how that compares with the point of maximum =
lift on=20
its partner valve.&nbsp; As I've said a couple of times on engines I've =
checked=20
the two don't always occur at the same time on various valves.&nbsp; =
It's also=20
the case that the period of maximum gap has been surprisingly narrow, =
like the=20
period of maximum lift, whereas on drawings of various cam profiles the =
base=20
circle i.e. where the clearance should be maximum&nbsp;occupies more =
than 180=20
degrees.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>PaulH.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; =
PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: =
black"><SPAN=20
  style=3D"COLOR: #1f497d">...&nbsp;does the TL of valve 8 mean that you =
have=20
  found the BL of valve 1? If I remember correctly, they aren=92t 180 =
opposite,=20
  input being before or after exhaust by some degrees. Is the difference =
of=20
  opposition so insignificant that it doesn=92t=20
matter?</SPAN></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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[email-masked]

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