Subject: Re: [Healeys] Counterfeit Numbers

From: Curtis Arndt <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2022 09:31:39 -0700

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Rick,

I posted about this exact subject in comment on the first 100M made that
was for sale recently on BaT.

If one was willing to invest several thousands of dollars on a new set of
spot on body stamps, you'd be off to a good start. Several of us researched
having a set of body number stamps made up, but we decided the cost $5K+
wasn't worth the effort... Duh, we weren't making counterfeit Ms! However
if you were, it might be worth the effort and expense.

Just recently, a person in Washington state was selling ALL of the items
needed for an M, e..g., original louvered bonnet, original AUC 6040 AA or X
carburetors and manifolds, original numbered and dated distributor, etc...

So with the stamps, the aforementioned parts, then find a clapped out BN2
cheap.  Then find Factory 100M numbers that are currently not in use
(scrapped years ago) and request a heritage certificate. Rebuild the car,
have it judged Concours and get a Bill Meade certificate.

Renumber the boot, bonnet and splash apron. Weld in the old numbers on the
cockpit trim, grind and sand smooth, and  renumber. EASIER said than done,
the trim warps like nobody's business under welding heat, plus you'll need
to use old trim aluminum as a welding rod so the color matches and you
can't see a ghosting of the old numbers.To me this is the hardest part, and
NOT cheap.

Now this won't be cheap as the number stamps, parts and welding would cost
north of $20K+. However, given Factory 100M premiums, it's possibly
worth the effort. Folks have worked harder to scam for less. Just my 2
cents.

-Curt

On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 8:41 AM HealeyRick <[email-masked]> wrote:

> In watching various auctions of high-end Healeys, particularly Ms, I read
> opinions that it would be very difficult to counterfeit all the identifying
> numbers on a Healey. My question for the better informed would it really be
> that difficult to get dies made up to punch realistic numbers, grind off
> the old numbers on the trim pieces and body panels and make up some ID
> plates?  If cars are worth over $150k, I would think it would be a
> relatively small investment in tooling and with all the scanning equipment
> we have now, I can't see it being that difficult.
>
> Don't worry, not asking for a friend.
>
> Rick Neville
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Rick,<div><br></div><div>I posted about this exact subject=
 in comment on the first 100M made that was for sale recently on BaT.</div>=
<div><br></div><div>If one was willing to invest several=C2=A0thousands=C2=
=A0of dollars on a new set of spot on body stamps, you&#39;d be off to a go=
od start. Several of us researched having a set of body number stamps made =
up, but we decided the cost $5K+ wasn&#39;t worth the effort... Duh, we wer=
en&#39;t making counterfeit=C2=A0Ms! However if you were, it might be worth=
 the effort and expense.</div><div><br></div><div>Just recently, a person i=
n Washington state was selling ALL of the items needed for an M, e..g., ori=
ginal louvered bonnet, original AUC 6040 AA or X carburetors and manifolds,=
 original numbered and dated distributor, etc...=C2=A0=C2=A0</div><div><br>=
</div><div>So with the stamps, the aforementioned=C2=A0parts, then find a c=
lapped out BN2 cheap.=C2=A0 Then find Factory 100M numbers that are=C2=A0cu=
rrently=C2=A0not in use (scrapped years ago) and request a heritage certifi=
cate. Rebuild the car, have it judged Concours and=C2=A0get a Bill Meade ce=
rtificate.</div><div><br></div><div>Renumber the boot, bonnet and splash ap=
ron. Weld in the old numbers on the cockpit trim, grind and sand smooth, an=
d=C2=A0 renumber. EASIER said than done, the trim warps like nobody&#39;s b=
usiness under welding heat, plus you&#39;ll need to use old trim aluminum a=
s a welding rod so the color matches and you can&#39;t see a ghosting of th=
e old numbers.To me this is the hardest part, and NOT cheap.</div><div><br>=
</div><div>Now this won&#39;t be cheap as the number stamps,=C2=A0parts and=
 welding would cost north of $20K+. However, given Factory 100M premiums, i=
t&#39;s possibly worth=C2=A0the=C2=A0effort. Folks have worked harder to sc=
am for less. Just my 2 cents.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>-Curt</div><di=
v><br></div><div><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D=
"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 8:41 AM HealeyRick &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br=
></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;=
border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">I=
n watching various auctions of high-end Healeys, particularly Ms, I read op=
inions that it would be very difficult to counterfeit all the identifying n=
umbers on a Healey. My question for the better informed would it really be =
that difficult to get dies made up to punch realistic numbers, grind off th=
e old numbers on the trim pieces and body panels and make up some ID plates=
?=C2=A0 If cars are worth over $150k, I would think it would be a relativel=
y small investment in tooling and with all the scanning equipment we have n=
ow, I can&#39;t see it being that difficult.<div><br></div><div>Don&#39;t w=
orry, not asking for a friend.</div><div><br></div><div>Rick Neville</div><=
/div>
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From: warthodson--- via Healeys <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2022 17:07:39 +0000 (UTC)

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I think the hardest part would be grinding off the original #'s without lea=
ving any evidence of the grinding.Gary Hodson

-----Original Message-----
From: HealeyRick <[email-masked]>
To: Healeys <[email-masked]>
Sent: Tue, Aug 16, 2022 9:37 am
Subject: [Healeys] Counterfeit Numbers

In watching various auctions of high-end Healeys, particularly Ms, I read o=
pinions that it would be very difficult to counterfeit all the identifying =
numbers on a Healey. My question for the better informed would it really be=
 that difficult to get dies made up to punch realistic numbers, grind off t=
he old numbers on the trim pieces and body panels and make up some ID plate=
s?=C2=A0 If cars are worth over $150k, I would think it would be a relative=
ly small investment in tooling and with all the scanning equipment we have =
now, I can't see it being that difficult.
Don't worry, not asking for a friend.
Rick Neville_______________________________________________

Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys http://autox.team.net/archiv=
e/healeys

[email-masked]

[email-masked]

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<div style="color:black;font: 12pt Comic Sans MS, sans-serif;">I think the hardest part would be grinding off the original #'s without leaving any evidence of the grinding.
<div>Gary Hodson<br>
<br>

<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black"><font size="2">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: HealeyRick &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>
To: Healeys &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>
Sent: Tue, Aug 16, 2022 9:37 am<br>
Subject: [Healeys] Counterfeit Numbers<br>
<br>

<div id="yiv9523149576">
<div dir="ltr">In watching various auctions of high-end Healeys, particularly Ms, I read opinions that it would be very difficult to counterfeit all the identifying numbers on a Healey. My question for the better informed would it really be that difficult to get dies made up to punch realistic numbers, grind off the old numbers on the trim pieces and body panels and make up some ID plates?&nbsp; If cars are worth over $150k, I would think it would be a relatively small investment in tooling and with all the scanning equipment we have now, I can't see it being that difficult.
<div><br>
</div>

<div>Don't worry, not asking for a friend.</div>

<div><br>
</div>

<div>Rick Neville</div>
</div>

</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
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Archive: <a href="http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys" target="_blank">http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys </a><a href="http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys" target="_blank">http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys</a><br>
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From: Jean Caron <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2022 17:21:27 +0000

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	boundary="_000_DS7PR11MB6078902DD0227CAEA96AB2C3D16B9DS7PR11MB6078namp_"

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Rick,
Getting dies to put numbers on would be the relatively easy part. Grinding =
off old numbers would be an amateur way to do it and if investigated, the n=
umber grounded off would show up under certain light and/or acid to find th=
e correct ones. The difficult part, one would have to =93find=94 the BMIHT =
certificate from an original 100M that is not on the road already, I think =
some shady individuals already tried that and were caught doing it if my me=
mory serves me right. Then you also have to get all the proper parts that a=
re exclusive to the 100M, the engine parts, distributor, etc. And then one =
would have to apply for the Worldwide 100 Registry, another step that may b=
e difficult to get if one is trying it with a =93fake 100M=94.
All of the above is not impossible but would likely be very time consuming,=
 costly and fraught with uncertainty unless someone would get lucky and hit=
 a correct number from the BMIHT.

Jean

Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=3D550986> for Window=
s

Sent: August 16, 2022 10:25 AM
Subject: [Healeys] Counterfeit Numbers

In watching various auctions of high-end Healeys, particularly Ms, I read o=
pinions that it would be very difficult to counterfeit all the identifying =
numbers on a Healey. My question for the better informed would it really be=
 that difficult to get dies made up to punch realistic numbers, grind off t=
he old numbers on the trim pieces and body panels and make up some ID plate=
s?  If cars are worth over $150k, I would think it would be a relatively sm=
all investment in tooling and with all the scanning equipment we have now, =
I can't see it being that difficult.

Rick Neville

--_000_DS7PR11MB6078902DD0227CAEA96AB2C3D16B9DS7PR11MB6078namp_
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<head>
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<body lang=3D"EN-CA" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"#954F72" style=3D"word-wrap:bre=
ak-word">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Rick, </p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Getting dies to put numbers on would be the relative=
ly easy part. Grinding off old numbers would be an amateur way to do it and=
 if investigated, the number grounded off would show up under certain light=
 and/or acid to find the correct ones.
 The difficult part, one would have to =93find=94 the BMIHT certificate fro=
m an original 100M that is not on the road already, I think some shady indi=
viduals already tried that and were caught doing it if my memory serves me =
right. Then you also have to get all
 the proper parts that are exclusive to the 100M, the engine parts, distrib=
utor, etc. And then one would have to apply for the Worldwide 100 Registry,=
 another step that may be difficult to get if one is trying it with a =93fa=
ke 100M=94.
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">All of the above is not impossible but would likely =
be very time consuming, costly and fraught with uncertainty unless someone =
would get lucky and hit a correct number from the BMIHT.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Jean</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Sent from <a href=3D"https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink=
/?LinkId=3D550986">
Mail</a> for Windows</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div style=3D"mso-element:para-border-div;border:none;border-top:solid #E1E=
1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"border:none;padding:0cm"><b>From: </b><a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">HealeyRick</a><br>
<b>Sent: </b>August 16, 2022 10:25 AM<br>
<b>To: </b><a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">Healeys</a><br>
<b>Subject: </b>[Healeys] Counterfeit Numbers</p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In watching various auctions of high-end Healeys, pa=
rticularly Ms, I read opinions that it would be very difficult to counterfe=
it all the identifying numbers on a Healey. My question for the better info=
rmed would it really be that difficult
 to get dies made up to punch realistic numbers, grind off the old numbers =
on the trim pieces and body panels and make up some ID plates?&nbsp; If car=
s are worth over $150k, I would think it would be a relatively small invest=
ment in tooling and with all the scanning
 equipment we have now, I can't see it being that difficult.<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Don't worry, not asking for a friend.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Rick Neville<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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[email-masked]

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From: Curtis Arndt <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2022 13:55:09 -0700

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--00000000000063d6b505e661f71f

Gary,

Which is why you wouldn't grind them off, instead...

 A new boot tab could be made with the new number and spot welded in place
(invisible) I've seen it done.
The bonnet and splash apron could have the metal where the original numbers
were cut out and new metal carefully welded in then blended, and again new
numbers stamped. Again, I've seen it done.

I already explained what to do with the cockpit trim pieces, the old
numbers wedded in, then smoothed down to exactly match the back side and
new numbers stamped. My own rear cockpit trim
on my BN1 had around eight holes drilled for studs from back in the day for
a California tonneau cover. We used an old piece of trim as welding
material and carefully welded up all the holes,
then ground, sanded and polished them smooth before anodizing., You can't
tell they were ever there

-Curt

On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 11:31 AM warthodson--- via Healeys <
[email-masked]> wrote:

> I think the hardest part would be grinding off the original #'s without
> leaving any evidence of the grinding.
> Gary Hodson
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/[email-masked]
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Gary,<div><br></div><div=
>Which is why you wouldn&#39;t grind them off, instead...</div><div><br></d=
iv><div>=C2=A0A new boot tab could be made with the new number and spot wel=
ded in place (invisible) I&#39;ve seen it done.</div><div>The bonnet and sp=
lash apron could have the metal where the original numbers were cut out and=
 new metal=C2=A0carefully=C2=A0welded in then blended, and again new number=
s stamped. Again, I&#39;ve seen it done.</div><div><br></div><div>I already=
 explained what to do with the cockpit trim pieces, the old numbers wedded=
=C2=A0in, then smoothed down to exactly match the back side and new numbers=
 stamped. My own rear cockpit trim</div><div> on my BN1 had around eight ho=
les drilled for studs from back in the day for a California tonneau cover. =
We used an old piece of trim as welding material=C2=A0and carefully=C2=A0we=
lded up all the holes,</div><div>then ground, sanded and polished them smoo=
th=C2=A0before anodizing., You can&#39;t tell they were ever there</div><di=
v><br></div><div>-Curt</div></div></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote=
"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 11:31 AM wa=
rthodson--- via Healeys &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">heale=
[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
 style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);p=
adding-left:1ex">
<div style=3D"color:black;font:12pt &quot;Comic Sans MS&quot;,sans-serif">I=
 think the hardest part would be grinding off the original #&#39;s without =
leaving any evidence of the grinding.
<div>Gary Hodson<br>
<br>

<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black"><font=
 size=3D"2">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: HealeyRick &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blan=
k">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br>
To: Healeys &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank"=
>[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br>

<div id=3D"gmail-m_-455992520491130291yiv9523149576">
<div dir=3D"ltr">In watching various auctions of high-end Healeys, particul=
arly Ms, I read opinions that it would be very difficult to counterfeit all=
 the identifying numbers on a Healey. My question for the better informed w=
ould it really be that difficult to get dies made up to punch realistic num=
bers, grind off the old numbers on the trim pieces and body panels and make=
 up some ID plates?=C2=A0 If cars are worth over $150k, I would think it wo=
uld be a relatively small investment in tooling and with all the scanning e=
quipment we have now, I can&#39;t see it being that difficult.
<div><br>
</div>

<div>Don&#39;t worry, not asking for a friend.</div>

<div><br>
</div>

<div>Rick Neville</div>
</div>

</div>
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