Subject: Re: [Healeys] Ring gear not fully seated in flywheel

From: Michael Salter <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2015 12:01:58 -0500

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I have found the comments on this topic to be very interesting with regards
to the heating of the ring gear. I am no metallurgist so I tend to pay
attention to manufacturers instructions regarding the heating of metal
components very carefully.
In the BN1 workshop manual instructions are given for shrink fitting new
brass syncro cones onto the gears. The instructions read:
*"The heating (of the syncro ring) can best be done by immersion in oil of
250 degrees Fahrenheit and then fitting by means of a hand press. After
shrinking on, the unit should be immediately be quenched in water to
prevent the heat softening the gear itself.*
250 degrees Fahrenheit is the equivalent of 121 degrees Centigrade.
Well, if we are going to be heating the actual RING GEAR to 2 or 300
degrees Centigrade should we not perhaps be a tad concerned about heat
softening the ring gear??
Just a thought....

Michael S
BN1 #174

On Mon, Jan 19, 2015 at 8:30 PM, Steve Gerow <[email-masked]> wrote=
:

> Chris =E2=80=93 I=E2=80=99ve had my Weber gas grill will close to 400 deg=
rees C.
>
>
>
> Understand from many videos grilling is big in OZ =E2=80=93 suggest use o=
f barbie
> rather than wife=E2=80=99s stove for heating of ring gear.
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> *Steve Gerow*
>
> Altadena, CA, USA
>
> BN6 & Weber S330
>
> _______________________________________________
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--=20
*If you can't fix it with a hammer, you've got an electrical problem.*

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:comic sa=
ns ms,sans-serif;font-size:small">I have found the comments on this topic t=
o be very interesting with regards to the heating of the ring gear. I am no=
 metallurgist so I tend to pay attention to manufacturers instructions rega=
rding the heating of metal components very carefully.<br></div><div class=
=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:=
small">In the BN1 workshop manual instructions are given for shrink fitting=
 new brass syncro cones onto the gears. The instructions read: <br><i>&quot=
;The heating (of the syncro ring) can best be done by immersion in oil of 2=
50 degrees Fahrenheit and then fitting by means of a hand press. After shri=
nking on, the unit should be immediately be quenched in water to prevent th=
e heat softening the gear itself.</i><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default"=
 style=3D"font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small">250 degrees=
 Fahrenheit is the equivalent of 121 degrees Centigrade. <br>Well, if we ar=
e going to be heating the actual RING GEAR to 2 or 300 degrees Centigrade s=
hould we not perhaps be a tad concerned about heat softening the ring gear?=
?<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:comic sans ms,=
sans-serif;font-size:small">Just a thought....<br></div><div class=3D"gmail=
_default" style=3D"font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small"><b=
r></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:comic sans ms,san=
s-serif;font-size:small">Michael S<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" st=
yle=3D"font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small">BN1 #174<br></=
div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon,=
 Jan 19, 2015 at 8:30 PM, Steve Gerow <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt;=
</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .=
8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div link=3D"blue" vlink=
=3D"purple" lang=3D"EN-US"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Chris =E2=80=93 I=E2=
=80=99ve had my Weber gas grill will close to 400 degrees C.<u></u><u></u><=
/p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Un=
derstand from many videos grilling is big in OZ =E2=80=93 suggest use of ba=
rbie rather than wife=E2=80=99s stove for heating of ring gear.<u></u><u></=
u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"=
><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">--<u></u><u></u></p><p clas=
s=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Bodoni=
 MT&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">Steve Gerow<u></u><u></u></span></b></p><p cla=
ss=3D"MsoNormal">Altadena, CA, USA<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=
BN6 &amp; Weber S330<u></u><u></u></p></div></div><br>_____________________=
__________________________<br>
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<br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><div class=3D"gmail=
_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><i><font><span style=3D"=
color:black">If you can&#39;t fix it with a hammer, you&#39;ve got an elect=
rical problem.</span></font></i><br><br><div></div><div></div><div></div></=
div></div></div></div>
</div>

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Archive: http://www.team.net/archive

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---

From: I Erbs <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2015 10:16:40 -0800

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The only ring gear experience I have was with my old Sunbeam Imp.
 We used a couple of map gas torches to heat it  red hot, dropped it on the
flywheel. knocked it flush with wood and sledge hammer and then immediate
gave it a cold water bath.
Seems to concur with Mr. Salters reading of the repair manual.
 400 C seems way to hot. Over 700 F. While not hot enough to weld or
braise, maybe to hot to reduce hardness.

Ira Erbs
Portland, OR
   _______                                  _______
     (______ \____1960 BT7____/ _______)
         (_________________________)

On Tue, Jan 20, 2015 at 9:01 AM, Michael Salter <[email-masked]>
wrote:

> I have found the comments on this topic to be very interesting with
> regards to the heating of the ring gear. I am no metallurgist so I tend t=
o
> pay attention to manufacturers instructions regarding the heating of meta=
l
> *"The heating (of the syncro ring) can best be done by immersion in oil o=
f
> On Mon, Jan 19, 2015 at 8:30 PM, Steve Gerow <[email-masked]>
> wrote:
>
>> Chris =E2=80=93 I=E2=80=99ve had my Weber gas grill will close to 400 de=
grees C.
>>
>>
>>
>> Understand from many videos grilling is big in OZ =E2=80=93 suggest use =
of barbie
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/[email-masked]
>
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">The=
 only ring gear experience I have was with my old Sunbeam Imp.</div><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">=C2=A0We used a couple of m=
ap gas torches to heat it =C2=A0red hot, dropped it on the flywheel. knocke=
d it flush with wood and sledge hammer and then immediate gave it a cold wa=
ter bath.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">Seems=
 to concur with Mr. Salters reading of the repair manual.</div><div class=
=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">=C2=A0400 C seems way to hot. =
Over 700 F. While not hot enough to weld or braise, maybe to hot to reduce =
hardness.</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br clear=3D"all"><div><div=
 class=3D"gmail_signature">Ira Erbs<br>Portland, OR<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0 _______=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 _______<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=
=A0 (______ \____1960 BT7____/ _______)<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=
=A0 (_________________________)<br></div></div>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Jan 20, 2015 at 9:01 AM, Michael Sal=
ter <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=
=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;p=
adding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"fon=
t-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small">I have found the comment=
s on this topic to be very interesting with regards to the heating of the r=
ing gear. I am no metallurgist so I tend to pay attention to manufacturers =
instructions regarding the heating of metal components very carefully.<br><=
/div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:comic sans ms,sans-s=
erif;font-size:small">In the BN1 workshop manual instructions are given for=
 shrink fitting new brass syncro cones onto the gears. The instructions rea=
d: <br><i>&quot;The heating (of the syncro ring) can best be done by immers=
ion in oil of 250 degrees Fahrenheit and then fitting by means of a hand pr=
ess. After shrinking on, the unit should be immediately be quenched in wate=
r to prevent the heat softening the gear itself.</i><br></div><div class=3D=
"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:sma=
ll">250 degrees Fahrenheit is the equivalent of 121 degrees Centigrade. <br=
>Well, if we are going to be heating the actual RING GEAR to 2 or 300 degre=
es Centigrade should we not perhaps be a tad concerned about heat softening=
 the ring gear??<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family=
:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small">Just a thought....<br></div><div=
 class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font=
-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:co=
mic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small">Michael S<br></div><div class=3D"gm=
ail_default" style=3D"font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small"=
>BN1 #174<br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail=
_quote">On Mon, Jan 19, 2015 at 8:30 PM, Steve Gerow <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">steveg@abrazosd=
ata.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D=
"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div link=
=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" lang=3D"EN-US"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Chris=
 =E2=80=93 I=E2=80=99ve had my Weber gas grill will close to 400 degrees C.=
<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal">Understand from many videos grilling is big in OZ =E2=80=93 =
suggest use of barbie rather than wife=E2=80=99s stove for heating of ring =
gear.<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">--<u></u><=
u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Bodoni MT&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">Steve Gerow<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></b></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Altadena, CA, USA<u></u><u></u></p><p cla=
ss=3D"MsoNormal">BN6 &amp; Weber S330<u></u><u></u></p></div></div><br>____=
___________________________________________<br>
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<br></blockquote></div><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br><=
br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><i>=
<font><span style=3D"color:black">If you can&#39;t fix it with a hammer, yo=
u&#39;ve got an electrical problem.</span></font></i><br><br><div></div><di=
v></div><div></div></div></div></div></div>
</font></span></div>
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[email-masked]

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---

From: richard mayor <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2015 01:23:46 +0000

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So here's a little more info about the BJ8 engine with the ring gear halfwa=
y on.... or halfway off.....depending on one's perspective.  I learned from=
 Steve Byers (BJ8 registrar) that the car that had that engine is in Englan=
d as of 1989 (or at least a  car that has the body # plate of that car).  S=
teve happens to have the British Heritage certificate for that car but no o=
wner info.=20
Because the ring gear was rubbing on the two upper engine plate bolts and m=
aking lots of noise=2C the diagnosis at the time was certainly some kind of=
 engine failure=2C and therefore=2C the engine was pulled. This is an engin=
e that has a little over 5=2C000 miles on it.
I have a theory as to how this how this happened.  The heads on the bolts a=
re ground down a bit but there is no apparent damage to the ring gear. Obvi=
ously=2C it's a much harder material. The ring gear was up tight against th=
ose bolts heads. This leads me to believe that the engagement of the starte=
r must have pulled the ring gear off its perch and up tight against the bol=
t heads. =20
I have this motor for sale on Cragislist in Portland Oregon. I'm not going =
to fix the ring gear so the new owner of this engine will see what I am tal=
king about and understand why this is such a low mileage 29K motor.

Richard Mayor
Portland=2C Oregon

Date: Tue=2C 20 Jan 2015 12:01:58 -0500
From: [email-masked]
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Healeys] Ring gear not fully seated in flywheel

I have found the comments on this topic to be very interesting with regards=
 to the heating of the ring gear. I am no metallurgist so I tend to pay att=
ention to manufacturers instructions regarding the heating of metal compone=
nts very carefully.
In the BN1 workshop manual instructions are given for shrink fitting new br=
ass syncro cones onto the gears. The instructions read:=20
"The heating (of the syncro ring) can best be done by immersion in oil of 2=
50 degrees Fahrenheit and then fitting by means of a hand press. After shri=
nking on=2C the unit should be immediately be quenched in water to prevent =
the heat softening the gear itself.
250 degrees Fahrenheit is the equivalent of 121 degrees Centigrade.=20
Well=2C if we are going to be heating the actual RING GEAR to 2 or 300 degr=
ees Centigrade should we not perhaps be a tad concerned about heat softenin=
g the ring gear??
Just a thought....

Michael S
BN1 #174

On Mon=2C Jan 19=2C 2015 at 8:30 PM=2C Steve Gerow <[email-masked]>=
 wrote:
Chris =96 I=92ve had my Weber gas grill will close to 400 degrees C. Unders=
tand from many videos grilling is big in OZ =96 suggest use of barbie rathe=
r than wife=92s stove for heating of ring gear.  --Steve GerowAltadena=2C C=
A=2C USABN6 & Weber S330
_______________________________________________
=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
=0A=
=0A=

=0A=
[email-masked]
=0A=
=0A=

=0A=
[email-masked]
=0A=

=0A=

--=20
If you can't fix it with a hammer=2C you've got an electrical problem.

=0A=
=0A=

_______________________________________________=0A=
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive=0A=
=0A=
[email-masked]=0A=
http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys=0A=
=0A=
[email-masked] 		 	   		  =

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<html>
<head>
<style><!--
.hmmessage P
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<body class=3D'hmmessage'><div dir=3D'ltr'>So here's a little more info abo=
ut the BJ8 engine with the ring gear halfway on.... or halfway off.....depe=
nding on one's perspective.&nbsp=3B I learned from Steve Byers (BJ8 registr=
ar) that the car that had that engine is in England as of 1989 (or at least=
 a&nbsp=3B car that has the body # plate of that car).&nbsp=3B Steve happen=
s to have the British Heritage certificate for that car but no owner info. =
<br>Because the ring gear was rubbing on the two upper engine plate bolts a=
nd making lots of noise=2C the diagnosis at the time was certainly some kin=
d of engine failure=2C and therefore=2C the engine was pulled. This is an e=
ngine that has a little over 5=2C000 miles on it.<br>I have a theory as to =
how this how this happened.&nbsp=3B The heads on the bolts are ground down =
a bit but there is no apparent damage to the ring gear. Obviously=2C it's a=
 much harder material. The ring gear was up tight against those bolts heads=
. This leads me to believe that the engagement of the starter must have pul=
led the ring gear off its perch and up tight against the bolt heads.&nbsp=
=3B <br>I have this motor for sale on Cragislist in Portland Oregon. I'm no=
t going to fix the ring gear so the new owner of this engine will see what =
I am talking about and understand why this is such a low mileage 29K motor.=
<br><br>Richard Mayor<br>Portland=2C Oregon<br><br><br><div><hr id=3D"stopS=
pelling">Date: Tue=2C 20 Jan 2015 12:01:58 -0500<br>From: michaelsalter@gma=
il.com<br>To: [email-masked]<br>Subject: Re: [Healeys] Ring gear no=
t fully seated in flywheel<br><br><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"ecxgmail_d=
efault" style=3D"font-family:comic sans ms=2Csans-serif=3Bfont-size:small=
=3B">I have found the comments on this topic to be very interesting with re=
gards to the heating of the ring gear. I am no metallurgist so I tend to pa=
y attention to manufacturers instructions regarding the heating of metal co=
mponents very carefully.<br></div><div class=3D"ecxgmail_default" style=3D"=
font-family:comic sans ms=2Csans-serif=3Bfont-size:small=3B">In the BN1 wor=
kshop manual instructions are given for shrink fitting new brass syncro con=
es onto the gears. The instructions read: <br><i>"The heating (of the syncr=
o ring) can best be done by immersion in oil of 250 degrees Fahrenheit and =
then fitting by means of a hand press. After shrinking on=2C the unit shoul=
d be immediately be quenched in water to prevent the heat softening the gea=
r itself.</i><br></div><div class=3D"ecxgmail_default" style=3D"font-family=
:comic sans ms=2Csans-serif=3Bfont-size:small=3B">250 degrees Fahrenheit is=
 the equivalent of 121 degrees Centigrade. <br>Well=2C if we are going to b=
e heating the actual RING GEAR to 2 or 300 degrees Centigrade should we not=
 perhaps be a tad concerned about heat softening the ring gear??<br></div><=
div class=3D"ecxgmail_default" style=3D"font-family:comic sans ms=2Csans-se=
rif=3Bfont-size:small=3B">Just a thought....<br></div><div class=3D"ecxgmai=
l_default" style=3D"font-family:comic sans ms=2Csans-serif=3Bfont-size:smal=
l=3B"><br></div><div class=3D"ecxgmail_default" style=3D"font-family:comic =
sans ms=2Csans-serif=3Bfont-size:small=3B">Michael S<br></div><div class=3D=
"ecxgmail_default" style=3D"font-family:comic sans ms=2Csans-serif=3Bfont-s=
ize:small=3B">BN1 #174<br></div></div><div class=3D"ecxgmail_extra"><br><di=
v class=3D"ecxgmail_quote">On Mon=2C Jan 19=2C 2015 at 8:30 PM=2C Steve Ger=
ow <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt=3B<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=
=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt=3B</span> wrote:<br><blockquote c=
lass=3D"ecxgmail_quote" style=3D"border-left:1px #ccc solid=3Bpadding-left:=
1ex=3B"><div lang=3D"EN-US"><div><p class=3D"ecxMsoNormal">Chris =96 I=92ve=
 had my Weber gas grill will close to 400 degrees C.<u></u><u></u></p><p cl=
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derstand from many videos grilling is big in OZ =96 suggest use of barbie r=
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From: Alan Seigrist <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2015 10:48:32 +0800

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Michael -

The ring gear is a pretty simple device with a very low loading and very
little use... with several hundred teeth and only a half second of use,
typically, the chance the ring gear failing due to improper heat treatment
is very low.

The synchro rings, however, are very different.  Not only are they
subjected to constant and repeated stress, the brass itself is a soft metal
that is put in the position of having to function through significant
amounts of friction.  In this regard heat treatment is critical.

Cheers,

Alan

On Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 1:01 AM, Michael Salter <[email-masked]>
wrote:

> regards to the heating of the ring gear. I am no metallurgist so I tend to
> pay attention to manufacturers instructions regarding the heating of metal

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Michael -<div><br></div><div>The ring gear is a pretty sim=
ple device with a very low loading and very little use... with several hund=
red teeth and only a half second of use, typically, the chance the ring gea=
r failing due to improper heat treatment is very low.</div><div><br></div><=
div>The synchro rings, however, are very different.=C2=A0 Not only are they=
 subjected to constant and repeated stress, the brass itself is a soft meta=
l that is put in the position of having to function through significant amo=
unts of friction.=C2=A0 In this regard heat treatment is critical.</div><di=
v><br></div><div>Cheers,</div><div><br></div><div>Alan</div><div class=3D"g=
mail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 1:01 AM,=
 Michael Salter <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:michaelsalter@gmail=
.com" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><b=
lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px =
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div style=3D"font-family:com=
ic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small">I have found the comments on this to=
pic to be very interesting with regards to the heating of the ring gear. I =
am no metallurgist so I tend to pay attention to manufacturers instructions=
 regarding the heating of metal components very carefully.<br></div><div st=
yle=3D"font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small">In the BN1 wor=
kshop manual instructions are given for shrink fitting new brass syncro con=
es onto the gears. The instructions read: <br><i>&quot;The heating (of the =
syncro ring) can best be done by immersion in oil of 250 degrees Fahrenheit=
 and then fitting by means of a hand press. After shrinking on, the unit sh=
ould be immediately be quenched in water to prevent the heat softening the =
gear itself.</i><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:comic sans ms,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">250 degrees Fahrenheit is the equivalent of 121 degrees =
Centigrade. <br>Well, if we are going to be heating the actual RING GEAR to=
 2 or 300 degrees Centigrade should we not perhaps be a tad concerned about=
 heat softening the ring gear??<br></div><div style=3D"font-family:comic sa=
ns ms,sans-serif;font-size:small">Just a thought....<br></div><div style=3D=
"font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div style=
=3D"font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small">Michael S<br></di=
v><div style=3D"font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small">BN1 #=
174<br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div></blockquote></div>=
</div></div>

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From: Per Schoerner <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2015 16:19:35 +0100

Hi
Well, the workshop manual calls for heating the starter ring to a 
temperature of 300 to 400 centigrades Celcius, indicated by a light blue 
surface colour.
When I did this, have done it twice on two different cars, I heated it 
in a porcelain oven that can be programmed very precisely. I had the 
flywheel in the freezer, but in hindsight I don't think this is 
necessary. Anyway, I put the heated ring on the flywheel and let it cool 
by itself. Initially there was a several millimeter gap between the ring 
and the flywheel. After about five minutes the ring gear had shrinked so 
it was not possible to move it around.

Per

Michael Salter skrev den 2015-01-20 18:01:
> regards to the heating of the ring gear. I am no metallurgist so I tend
> to pay attention to manufacturers instructions regarding the heating of
> metal components very carefully.

[email-masked]