Subject: [Healeys] Semantic Battles over Silly Things

From: [email-masked]
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2013 14:14:58 -0400 (EDT)

As an editor (of a car magazine), I just love these semantic battles:
Are antifreeze and coolant the same thing by different names? And who sez?

One person's quick-and-dirty wikipedish online source says they're the same.

BUT, my primary reference for this kind of information, the Road & Track
Automotive Dictionary (John Dinkel, Bentley Publishers, 2000), says:

"Antifreeze: Any of several substances (commonly liquids and typically
ethylene glycolo) mixed with water and added to a car's cooling system to
lower the freezing point of the coolant and to inhibit formation of rust and
other deposits."

Note that according to them, the two terms are obviously different, and also
note, according to them, Antifreeze DOES NOT RAISE THE BOILING POINT OF THE
COOLANT. Only something like Water Wetter can actually do that.

So there, for what it's worth.

Gary

Gary Anderson
Editor-in-Chief, The Star Magazine
Editor-at-large, Austin-Healey Magazine
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From: "Skip Saunders" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2013 14:53:52 -0400

See:
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://hellafunctional.com/wp-content/up
loads/2011/11/boilpt.gif&imgrefurl=http://hellafunctional.com/?p%3D629&h=395
&w=620&sz=30&tbnid=UOITpTaaMnxGoM:&tbnh=87&tbnw=137&zoom=1&usg=__e49vC07imee
gXb98FVGWrsxgz3Q=&docid=Pn0JlHBXXYobNM&sa=X&ei=ZBS6UdvIBKns0gGRsIHADA&ved=0C
C8Q9QEwAA&dur=1182

I wonder sometimes about the journalistic excellence of some car magazine
writers....maybe there is a semantic difference to be claimed? 

(sorry for the long URL, but a quick google of "antifreeze boiling point"
will reveal that indeed (regardless of whatever scientific credentials
claimed by journalists) antifreeze does indeed elevate the boiling point.)

Thanks
-skip-

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]
On Behalf Of [email-masked]
Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2013 2:15 PM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: [Healeys] Semantic Battles over Silly Things

Gary

Gary Anderson
$12.75

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2013 15:36:59 -0400 (EDT)

It's journalists like us who despair of readers like you who don't read
carefully. Note that I made no claim of my credentials, scientific or
otherwise.
What I wrote was that "according to them [Road & Track], antifreeze doesn't
raise the boiling point."
Which is a reasonable interpretation, given that the definition noted that
antifreeze in coolant did lower the freezing point of the coolant.
G.

Gary Anderson
Editor-in-Chief, The Star Magazine
Mercedes-Benz Club of America

-----Original Message-----
From: Skip Saunders <[email-masked]>
To: editorgary <[email-masked]>; healeys <[email-masked]>
Sent: Thu, Jun 13, 2013 11:54 am
Subject: RE: [Healeys] Semantic Battles over Silly Things

See:

[email-masked]

---

From: "\" Just Brits \" Shop" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2013 14:48:35 -0500

<< On 6/13/2013 1:53 PM, Skip Saunders wrote:
> will reveal that indeed...>>
that had you taken a minute to  (PREFERRED) used www.tinyurl.com or at 
LEAST
EDITED what that MESS of a url (it might of worked <G>), we ALL we be 
reading
the EXACT article you wanted us to read, Skip.

So Here:            http://tinyurl.com/llsezga

Interesting.    Thanks.

Ed

[email-masked]

---

From: "John Sims" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2013 17:03:06 -0400

How about if we give this a rest for a day or two so I can concentrate on
other things. As it is now, I am down to once a day review of my emails and
just delete like crazy without reading any more on this subject.

John Sims, BN6
Aberdeen, NJ

www.healey6.com

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]
On Behalf Of [email-masked]
Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2013 3:37 PM
To: [email-masked]; [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Healeys] Semantic Battles over Silly Things

Gary Anderson

[email-masked]

---

From: "Skip Saunders" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2013 17:30:22 -0400

Actually, I was not trying to discredit you so much . (in a sense you are
merely repeating nonsense.something quite common among everyone).   I was
actually commenting on the Road and Track which was actually professionally
published, with an editor, and with all kinds of "checks" supposedly in
place to prevent poor information from spreading.   (you had no such
"backup" for your posting. so a certain amount of leeway is granted to you.)

You are merely the John Q. Public that might believe what he hears/reads
from Fox News.   ( or from NBC for that matter .. Just to be "fair and
balanced")

In any case it is Not a reasonable conclusion. maybe that is the difference
between a journalist and a scientist.   Just because the freezing point
lowers does not imply anything about the boiling point.   It is always
worthwhile to go to an original (and creditable) source. apparently Road and
Track is not.

Try this instead?

http://www.meglobal.biz/media/product_guides/MEGlobal_MEG.pdf

Thanks

-skip-

From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2013 3:37 PM
To: [email-masked]; [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Healeys] Semantic Battles over Silly Things

 

Gary Anderson

-----Original Message-----
From: Skip Saunders <[email-masked]>
To: editorgary <[email-masked]>; healeys <[email-masked]>
Sent: Thu, Jun 13, 2013 11:54 am
Subject: RE: [Healeys] Semantic Battles over Silly Things

See:
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://hellafunctional.com/wp-content/up
loads/2011/11/boilpt.gif&imgrefurl=http://hellafunctional.com/?p%3D629
<http://hellafunctional.com/?p%3D629&h=395> &h=395
&w=620&sz=30&tbnid=UOITpTaaMnxGoM:&tbnh=87&tbnw=137&zoom=1&usg=__e49vC07imee
gXb98FVGWrsxgz3Q=&docid=Pn0JlHBXXYobNM&sa=X&ei=ZBS6UdvIBKns0gGRsIHADA&ved=0C
C8Q9QEwAA&dur=1182

[email-masked]

---

From: "Skip Saunders" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2013 17:52:04 -0400

Thanks Ed.... it is nice to have quality backup who can compensate for my
deficiencies...:-)

Thanks
-skip-

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]
On Behalf Of " Just Brits " Shop
Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2013 3:49 PM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Healeys] Semantic Battles over Silly Things

> will reveal that indeed...>>
that had you taken a minute to  (PREFERRED) used www.tinyurl.com or at LEAST
EDITED what that MESS of a url (it might of worked <G>), we ALL we be
reading the EXACT article you wanted us to read, Skip.

Interesting.    Thanks.

Ed
$12.75

[email-masked]

[email-masked]

---

From: "Greg Lemon" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2013 19:49:40 -0500

Language is simply a convention ( see definition #5 at 
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/convention ), the letters or sounds 
we put together work for communication if we agree on what they mean.  I 
always get a kick out of people who say "what it technically means", or "the 
proper usage".  If the sender and the recipient agree on the meaning we have 
effective communication, things mean what the masses agree on what they 
mean.

If I walk into the auto parts store, any auto parts store in the USA, and I 
ask for "anti-freeze" they will point me to the various gallon containers of 
stuff, perhaps ready to use (50/50 with water) or full strength, that 
includes chemicals which help keep the liquid you use in your cooling system 
from freezing, but also from boiling, and it will also have some 
anti-corrosive and lubrication additives, and in fact that is what I and 
most of you (from my part of the world anyway) will expect to get, and if 
you just got something that kept the stuff in your cooling system from 
freezing and no lubricant and your water pump failed you would be very 
unhappy, and if the auto parts guy came back with "well you just said you 
wanted "anti-freeze" so that's all you got", you probably wouldn't feel that 
much better about the whole thing.  So from a practical, and, in my opinion, 
actual standpoint the above described broad definition is what "anti-freeze" 
means here in the states.

I can't speak to the other parts of the world, but I suspect some of the 
terminology might be different, and I also suspect that that is how this 
whole thread got started.

Greg Lemon

[email-masked]

---

From: Richard Ewald <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2013 20:15:28 -0700

Gary,
As a professional in the automotive repair business for the last 46 years
(as of August) I love people that argue that I don't know what I am talking
about.  OK, I'll play.
That R&T definition was out of date as of 2000, and oh by the way what the
hell is glycolo?  The word is glycol.
There are several different types of antifreeze on the market.  The stuff
GM uses is not the same as what Ford uses or Chrysler, or Mercedes for that
matter.  Their definition mentions none of that.  Here is a fairly simple
explanation of some of the different types of coolant on the market today. *
http://tinyurl.com/mzu2usu*
As far as who sez
Well there are these guys: *http://tinyurl.com/kc2zkrt
*
*Or maybe you have heard of this family: **
http://tinyurl.com/or-this-family-business
*
*These guys are tight with Ferrari I hear: **http://tinyurl.com/kuh9te9
*
*Here is another small company you might have heard of:  **
http://tinyurl.com/mx6cbyc*
Oh look a 3 pointed star:  *http://tinyurl.com/mlj9f46*
I can keep this up all night.  Googling antifreeze/coolant brings up
848,000 hits and who knows how many pictures.
I stand by my comment that antifreeze and coolant are the same thing.
the ball is now in  your side of the court.
Rick

On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 11:14 AM, <[email-masked]> wrote:

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From: John Roesle <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2013 20:49:22 -0700 (PDT)

Much ado about nothing, on all sides.  Take the arcane cat fights elsewhere
and save us all the space and time for more important matters.

John Roesle
Shawnee, KS. 66227
913-687-1654
[email-masked]
________________________________
 From: "[email-masked]"
<[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]; [email-masked] 
Sent:
Thursday, June 13, 2013 2:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Healeys] Semantic Battles over
Silly Things

It's journalists like us who despair of readers like you who
don't read
carefully. Note that I made no claim of my credentials, scientific
or
otherwise.
What I wrote was that "according to them [Road & Track],
antifreeze doesn't
raise the boiling point."
Which is a reasonable
interpretation, given that the definition noted that
antifreeze in coolant did
lower the freezing point of the coolant.
G.

Gary Anderson
-----Original Message-----
From: Skip Saunders <[email-masked]>
To:
editorgary <[email-masked]>; healeys <[email-masked]>
Sent: Thu,
Jun 13, 2013 11:54 am
Subject: RE: [Healeys] Semantic Battles over Silly
Things

See:

I wonder sometimes about the journalistic excellence of
some car magazine
writers....maybe there is a semantic difference to be
claimed?

(sorry for the long URL, but a quick google of "antifreeze boiling
point"
will reveal that indeed (regardless of whatever scientific credentials
claimed by journalists) antifreeze does indeed elevate the boiling point.)
_______________________________________________
Archive:
[email-masked]
http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/[email-masked]
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Archive: http://www.team.net/archive

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---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2013 00:43:11 -0400 (EDT)

My argument is that this is a dumb argument -- that was the point I was trying
to make from the start. What you call it DOESN'T MATTER. What matters is that
you use it, you use it properly, you flush the radiator at reasonable
intervals and replace the coolant/antifreeze/radiator liquid/whatever
following the manufacturer's instructions and good common sense -- no
miracles, no ignorance, no magic potions, no old wives' tales told by shade
tree mechanics over the counter of the long-gone auto parts store.

I think our work here is done.

Gary Anderson

-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Ewald <[email-masked]>
To: editorgary <[email-masked]>
Cc: healeys <[email-masked]>
Sent: Thu, Jun 13, 2013 8:15 pm
Subject: Re: [Healeys] Semantic Battles over Silly Things

Gary,
As a professional in the automotive repair business for the last 46 years (as
of August) I love people that argue that I don't know what I am talking about.
OK, I'll play.
That R&T definition was out of date as of 2000, and oh by the way what the
hell is glycolo?  The word is glycol.

There are several different types of antifreeze on the market.  The stuff GM
uses is not the same as what Ford uses or Chrysler, or Mercedes for that
matter.  Their definition mentions none of that.  Here is a fairly simple
explanation of some of the different types of coolant on the market today.
http://tinyurl.com/mzu2usu
As far as who sez
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Archive: http://www.team.net/archive

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From: Bob Spidell <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2013 19:17:22 -0700

re: "I stand by my comment that antifreeze and coolant are the same thing."

So, if you run pure water--an effective coolant, we all seem to agree--in your cooling system then water is antifreeze?

Dang, why have I been paying $15/gal for Prestone?

Bob

-- 
*******************************************************************
Bob Spidell           San Jose, CA            [email-masked]

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From: Oudesluys <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 09:29:57 +0200

I had given up, but I like this one.
Kees Oudesluijs
NL

Op 15-6-2013 4:17, Bob Spidell schreef:
> So, if you run pure water--an effective coolant, we all seem to 
> agree--in your cooling system then water is antifreeze?
>

[email-masked]