Subject: Re: [Fot] Tow Vehicle Musings

From: Bob Kramer via Fot <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2020 12:40:04 -0500

--===============6774268786099153305==

--00000000000010327805affe95e7
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I have always run GMC 2500HD pickups until my recent F250 purchase. I have
had no issues towing with the last 2 trucks.  Both were sold with about
180,000 miles on the clock and they were on the original brakes. I don't
tow this way alot but I have a 28" box and I have loaded and carried 2
TR's. That puts it over 10,000 lbs, plus I carry a full pickup truck bed.
I have been wondering if I could downsize to one of the newer 1/2 max tow
trucks that are promoted to handle the weight.

I like the 3/4 ton trucks but gas mileage for the rest of the miles I drive
is a big trade off.

Bob Kramer

On Wed, Sep 23, 2020 at 12:32 PM Barr, Scott via Fot <[email-masked]>
wrote:

> Hi all,
>
>
>
> I=E2=80=99ve been towing a 24-foot toy-hauler style trailer for a few yea=
rs now.
> It=E2=80=99s 14 feet of =E2=80=9Cgarage=E2=80=9D space in the back and 10=
 feet of RV in the front
> (toilet, shower, fridge, kitchen area).  All in, full of water, car loade=
d,
> it weighs about 9,500 lbs.  I load the trailer so I have about 1,750 poun=
ds
> of tongue weight, which is technically a little over the payload limit of
> the truck, but not too bad.
>
>
>
> I=E2=80=99ve been towing with a 2017 F-150, with a max tow package puttin=
g towing
> capacity at about 12,000 lbs. V6 twin turbo EcoBoost with 375hp and 470 f=
t
> lb torque.  I use a good weight-distributing hitch and a sway control
> strut.  And I added Air Lift air suspension to help with the extra load.
> Generally speaking, the F-150 has been doing just fine.  But when it=E2=
=80=99s
> windy the trailer gets a little tail-happy, wagging enough sometimes to s=
et
> off the truck=E2=80=99s automatic trailer sway alarm (it=E2=80=99s a big =
baby=E2=80=A6).
>
>
>
> So I=E2=80=99ve been trying to determine whether moving up to an F-250 su=
per duty
> would make an appreciable difference in the towing performance.  An F-250
> is 1000-1500 pounds heavier than my F-150, depending on specs of both
> trucks.  Is that enough to make a noticeable difference?  Are there other
> factors that would make it that much better than an F-150?
>
>
>
> The F-150 with the twin turbo V6 and 10-speed trans makes for a nice
> street car, with reasonable mileage (about 19 average) =E2=80=93 and it=
=E2=80=99s what I
> drive all winter.  The F-250 Super Duty will get considerably crappier
> mileage and will be a less friendly daily driver (I assume).  Not to
> mention that my F-150 is pretty close to paid off and I=E2=80=99d be taki=
ng on
> another boatload of debt to move up to the F-250.  Which is all to say th=
at
> the towing performance improvement would need to be considerable before I
> would make the move.
>
>
>
> What say you, towing brain trust?  Is it worth the move?
>
>
>
> Scott (B.)
> _______________________________________________
> [email-masked]
>
> http://www.fot-racing.com
>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
> Unsubscribe/Manage <http://www.team.net/pipermail/fotUnsubscribe/Manage>:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked]
>
>
>

--00000000000010327805affe95e7
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">I have always run GMC 2500HD pickups until my recent F250 =
purchase. I have had no issues towing with the last 2 trucks.=C2=A0 Both we=
re sold with about 180,000 miles on the clock and they were on the original=
 brakes. I don&#39;t tow this way alot but I have a 28&quot; box and I have=
 loaded and carried 2 TR&#39;s. That puts it over 10,000 lbs, plus I carry =
a full pickup truck bed.=C2=A0 I have been wondering if I could downsize to=
 one of the newer 1/2 max tow trucks that are promoted to handle the weight=
.=C2=A0<div><br></div><div>I like the 3/4 ton trucks but gas mileage for th=
e rest of the miles I drive is a big trade off.</div><div><br clear=3D"all"=
><div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_si=
gnature"><div dir=3D"ltr">Bob Kramer</div></div></div><br></div></div><br><=
div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Sep=
 23, 2020 at 12:32 PM Barr, Scott via Fot &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]=
eam.net">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gm=
ail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,=
204,204);padding-left:1ex">

<div lang=3D"EN-US">
<div class=3D"gmail-m_8737150516282767467WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Cent=
ury Gothic&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Hi all,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Cent=
ury Gothic&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Cent=
ury Gothic&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">I=E2=80=99ve been towing a 24-foot=
 toy-hauler style trailer for a few years now.=C2=A0 It=E2=80=99s 14 feet o=
f =E2=80=9Cgarage=E2=80=9D space in the back and 10 feet of RV in the front=
 (toilet,
 shower, fridge, kitchen area).=C2=A0 All in, full of water, car loaded, it=
 weighs about 9,500 lbs.=C2=A0 I load the trailer so I have about 1,750 pou=
nds of tongue weight, which is technically a little over the payload limit =
of the truck, but not too bad.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Cent=
ury Gothic&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Cent=
ury Gothic&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">I=E2=80=99ve been towing with a 20=
17 F-150, with a max tow package putting towing capacity at about 12,000 lb=
s. V6 twin turbo EcoBoost with 375hp and 470 ft lb torque.
 =C2=A0I use a good weight-distributing hitch and a sway control strut.=C2=
=A0 And I added Air Lift air suspension to help with the extra load.=C2=A0 =
Generally speaking, the F-150 has been doing just fine.=C2=A0 But when it=
=E2=80=99s windy the trailer gets a little tail-happy, wagging
 enough sometimes to set off the truck=E2=80=99s automatic trailer sway ala=
rm (it=E2=80=99s a big baby=E2=80=A6).
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Cent=
ury Gothic&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Cent=
ury Gothic&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">So I=E2=80=99ve been trying to det=
ermine whether moving up to an F-250 super duty would make an appreciable d=
ifference in the towing performance.=C2=A0 An F-250 is 1000-1500
 pounds heavier than my F-150, depending on specs of both trucks.=C2=A0 Is =
that enough to make a noticeable difference?=C2=A0 Are there other factors =
that would make it that much better than an F-150?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Cent=
ury Gothic&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Cent=
ury Gothic&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">The F-150 with the twin turbo V6 a=
nd 10-speed trans makes for a nice street car, with reasonable mileage (abo=
ut 19 average) =E2=80=93 and it=E2=80=99s what I drive all winter.=C2=A0
 The F-250 Super Duty will get considerably crappier mileage and will be a =
less friendly daily driver (I assume).=C2=A0 Not to mention that my F-150 i=
s pretty close to paid off and I=E2=80=99d be taking on another boatload of=
 debt to move up to the F-250.=C2=A0 Which is all
 to say that the towing performance improvement would need to be considerab=
le before I would make the move.=C2=A0
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Cent=
ury Gothic&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Cent=
ury Gothic&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">What say you, towing brain trust?=
=C2=A0 Is it worth the move?
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Cent=
ury Gothic&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Cent=
ury Gothic&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Scott (B.)<u></u><u></u></span></p=
</div>
</div>

_______________________________________________<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]<=
/a><br>
<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.fot-racing.com" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">=
http://www.fot-racing.com</a><br>
<br>
et=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a><br>
Archive: <a href=3D"http://autox.team.net/archive" rel=3D"noreferrer" targe=
t=3D"_blank">http://autox.team.net/archive</a> <a href=3D"http://www.team.n=
et/pipermail/fotUnsubscribe/Manage" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tp://www.team.net/pipermail/fot<br>
t/[email-masked]" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://autox.te=
am.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked]</a><br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div>

--00000000000010327805affe95e7--

--===============6774268786099153305==
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline

_______________________________________________
[email-masked]

http://www.fot-racing.com

Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot

--===============6774268786099153305==--

---

From: Larry Young via Fot <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2020 12:58:09 -0500

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--===============3570098574256170584==
 boundary="------------4B800D21A7E17D7A459ADB46"
Content-Language: en-US

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------4B800D21A7E17D7A459ADB46
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

I don't know the situation now with 1/2 ton diesels, but that would be 
key to my decision. My setup was not that heavy. I towed with an 5.4L 
Expedition, then with a BMW X5 diesel. It made all the difference in the 
world.
  - Larry

On 9/23/2020 12:31 PM, Barr, Scott via Fot wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I’ve been towing a 24-foot toy-hauler style trailer for a few years 
> now.  It’s 14 feet of “garage” space in the back and 10 feet of RV in 
> the front (toilet, shower, fridge, kitchen area).  All in, full of 
> water, car loaded, it weighs about 9,500 lbs.  I load the trailer so I 
> have about 1,750 pounds of tongue weight, which is technically a 
> little over the payload limit of the truck, but not too bad.
>
> I’ve been towing with a 2017 F-150, with a max tow package putting 
> towing capacity at about 12,000 lbs. V6 twin turbo EcoBoost with 375hp 
> and 470 ft lb torque.  I use a good weight-distributing hitch and a 
> sway control strut.  And I added Air Lift air suspension to help with 
> the extra load.  Generally speaking, the F-150 has been doing just 
> fine.  But when it’s windy the trailer gets a little tail-happy, 
> wagging enough sometimes to set off the truck’s automatic trailer sway 
> alarm (it’s a big baby…).
>
> So I’ve been trying to determine whether moving up to an F-250 super 
> duty would make an appreciable difference in the towing performance. 
> An F-250 is 1000-1500 pounds heavier than my F-150, depending on specs 
> of both trucks.  Is that enough to make a noticeable difference?  Are 
> there other factors that would make it that much better than an F-150?
>
> street car, with reasonable mileage (about 19 average) – and it’s what 
> I drive all winter.  The F-250 Super Duty will get considerably 
> crappier mileage and will be a less friendly daily driver (I assume).  
> Not to mention that my F-150 is pretty close to paid off and I’d be 
> taking on another boatload of debt to move up to the F-250.  Which is 
> all to say that the towing performance improvement would need to be 
> considerable before I would make the move.
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked]
>
>

--------------4B800D21A7E17D7A459ADB46
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

<html>
  <head>
    <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
      charset=windows-1252">
  </head>
  <body>
    I don't know the situation now with 1/2 ton diesels, but that would
    be key to my decision. My setup was not that heavy. I towed with an
    5.4L Expedition, then with a BMW X5 diesel. It made all the
    difference in the world.<br>
     - Larry<br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 9/23/2020 12:31 PM, Barr, Scott via
      Fot wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:[email-masked]">
      <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
        charset=windows-1252">
      <meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 15 (filtered
        medium)">
      <style><!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
	{font-family:"Cambria Math";
	panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}
@font-face
	{font-family:Calibri;
	panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
	{font-family:"Century Gothic";
	panose-1:2 11 5 2 2 2 2 2 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
	{margin:0in;
	font-size:11.0pt;
	font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;}
span.EmailStyle17
	{mso-style-type:personal-compose;
	font-family:"Century Gothic",sans-serif;
	color:black;
	position:relative;
	top:0pt;
	mso-text-raise:0pt;
	letter-spacing:0pt;
	font-weight:normal;
	font-style:normal;}
.MsoChpDefault
	{mso-style-type:export-only;
	font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;}
@page WordSection1
	{size:8.5in 11.0in;
	margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}
div.WordSection1
	{page:WordSection1;}
--></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Century
            Gothic&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Hi all,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Century
            Gothic&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Century
            Gothic&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">I’ve been towing a
            24-foot toy-hauler style trailer for a few years now.  It’s
            14 feet of “garage” space in the back and 10 feet of RV in
            the front (toilet, shower, fridge, kitchen area).  All in,
            full of water, car loaded, it weighs about 9,500 lbs.  I
            load the trailer so I have about 1,750 pounds of tongue
            weight, which is technically a little over the payload limit
            of the truck, but not too bad.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Century
            Gothic&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Century
            Gothic&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">I’ve been towing with a
            2017 F-150, with a max tow package putting towing capacity
            at about 12,000 lbs. V6 twin turbo EcoBoost with 375hp and
            470 ft lb torque.  I use a good weight-distributing hitch
            and a sway control strut.  And I added Air Lift air
            suspension to help with the extra load.  Generally speaking,
            the F-150 has been doing just fine.  But when it’s windy the
            trailer gets a little tail-happy, wagging enough sometimes
            to set off the truck’s automatic trailer sway alarm (it’s a
            big baby…).
            <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Century
            Gothic&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Century
            Gothic&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">So I’ve been trying to
            determine whether moving up to an F-250 super duty would
            make an appreciable difference in the towing performance. 
            An F-250 is 1000-1500 pounds heavier than my F-150,
            depending on specs of both trucks.  Is that enough to make a
            noticeable difference?  Are there other factors that would
            make it that much better than an F-150?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Century
            Gothic&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Century
            Gothic&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">The F-150 with the twin
            turbo V6 and 10-speed trans makes for a nice street car,
            with reasonable mileage (about 19 average) – and it’s what I
            drive all winter.  The F-250 Super Duty will get
            considerably crappier mileage and will be a less friendly
            daily driver (I assume).  Not to mention that my F-150 is
            pretty close to paid off and I’d be taking on another
            boatload of debt to move up to the F-250.  Which is all to
            say that the towing performance improvement would need to be
            considerable before I would make the move. 
            <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Century
            Gothic&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Century
            Gothic&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">What say you, towing
            brain trust?  Is it worth the move?
            <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Century
            Gothic&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Century
            Gothic&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Scott (B.)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
      </div>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>

<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.fot-racing.com">http://www.fot-racing.com</a>

Archive: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://autox.team.net/archive">http://autox.team.net/archive</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot">http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot</a>

</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

--------------4B800D21A7E17D7A459ADB46--

--===============3570098574256170584==
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline

--===============3570098574256170584==--

---

From: Curt Johnston via Fot <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2020 11:16:53 -0700 (PDT)

--===============1270103271931770462==
	boundary="----=_Part_52406_296116519.1600885014125"

------=_Part_52406_296116519.1600885014125
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Scott,

I ended up trading a 2017 Chevy 1500 for a 2003 Dodge Ram dually last month=
.  My wife thought I was crazy, but I found one with just 87k miles and in =
great shape.  I can now haul both of my cars in a larger trailer.  The olde=
r Dodges of that era don't have all the smog equipment or use DEF that kill=
s fuel mileage.=20

I thought using a dually as a regular driver would be too impractical.  But=
 around town I get nearly 20 MPG, which is better that the Chevy with the V=
8.  I targeted Dodges in the year range of 2003 to 2006 and waited until I =
found one in great shape.  Still cost over $20k however.  But that's better=
 than $60-$70k for a new one that gets 10 miles per gallon.  Newer trucks h=
ave higher horsepower, but an engine programmer on an older Cummings diesel=
 gives great results.=20

Curt Johnston

>     On 09/23/2020 10:31 AM Barr, Scott via Fot <[email-masked]> wrote=
:
>=20
>=20
>=20
>     Hi all,
>=20
>     =20
>=20
>     I=E2=80=99ve been towing a 24-foot toy-hauler style trailer for a few=
 years now.  It=E2=80=99s 14 feet of =E2=80=9Cgarage=E2=80=9D space in the =
back and 10 feet of RV in the front (toilet, shower, fridge, kitchen area).=
  All in, full of water, car loaded, it weighs about 9,500 lbs.  I load the=
 trailer so I have about 1,750 pounds of tongue weight, which is technicall=
y a little over the payload limit of the truck, but not too bad.
>=20
>     =20
>=20
>     I=E2=80=99ve been towing with a 2017 F-150, with a max tow package pu=
tting towing capacity at about 12,000 lbs. V6 twin turbo EcoBoost with 375h=
p and 470 ft lb torque.  I use a good weight-distributing hitch and a sway =
control strut.  And I added Air Lift air suspension to help with the extra =
load.  Generally speaking, the F-150 has been doing just fine.  But when it=
=E2=80=99s windy the trailer gets a little tail-happy, wagging enough somet=
imes to set off the truck=E2=80=99s automatic trailer sway alarm (it=E2=80=
=99s a big baby=E2=80=A6).
>=20
>     =20
>=20
>     So I=E2=80=99ve been trying to determine whether moving up to an F-25=
0 super duty would make an appreciable difference in the towing performance=
.  An F-250 is 1000-1500 pounds heavier than my F-150, depending on specs o=
f both trucks.  Is that enough to make a noticeable difference?  Are there =
other factors that would make it that much better than an F-150?
>=20
>     =20
>=20
>     The F-150 with the twin turbo V6 and 10-speed trans makes for a nice =
street car, with reasonable mileage (about 19 average) =E2=80=93 and it=E2=
=80=99s what I drive all winter.  The F-250 Super Duty will get considerabl=
y crappier mileage and will be a less friendly daily driver (I assume).  No=
t to mention that my F-150 is pretty close to paid off and I=E2=80=99d be t=
aking on another boatload of debt to move up to the F-250.  Which is all to=
 say that the towing performance improvement would need to be considerable =
before I would make the move.=20
>=20
>     =20
>=20
>=20
>     =20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>     Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/=
fot
>     Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/curt.jo=
[email-masked]
>=20
>=20
>=20

------=_Part_52406_296116519.1600885014125
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!doctype html>
<html>
 <head>=20
  <meta charset=3D"UTF-8">=20
 </head>
 <body>
  <div style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: helvetica, arial, sans-serif;=
 color: #333333;">
   <span style=3D"font-family: helvetica; font-size: 12pt;">Scott,</span>
   <br>
  </div>
  <div style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: helvetica, arial, sans-serif;=
 color: #333333;">
   <span style=3D"font-family: helvetica; font-size: 12pt;"><br></span>
  </div>
  <div style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: helvetica, arial, sans-serif;=
 color: #333333;">
   <span style=3D"font-family: helvetica; font-size: 12pt;">I ended up trad=
ing a 2017 Chevy 1500 for a 2003 Dodge Ram dually last month.&nbsp; My wife=
 thought I was crazy, but I found one with just 87k miles and in great shap=
e.&nbsp; I can now haul both of my cars in a larger trailer.&nbsp; The olde=
r Dodges of that era don't have all the smog equipment or use DEF that kill=
s fuel mileage.&nbsp; </span>
  </div>
  <div style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: helvetica, arial, sans-serif;=
 color: #333333;">
   <span style=3D"font-family: helvetica; font-size: 12pt;"><br></span>
  </div>
  <div style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: helvetica, arial, sans-serif;=
 color: #333333;">
   <span style=3D"font-family: helvetica; font-size: 12pt;">I thought using=
 a dually as a regular driver would be too impractical.&nbsp; But around to=
wn I get nearly 20 MPG, which is better that the Chevy with the V8.&nbsp; I=
 targeted Dodges in the year range of 2003 to 2006 and waited until I found=
 one in great shape.&nbsp; Still cost over $20k however.&nbsp; But that's b=
etter than $60-$70k for a new one that gets 10 miles per gallon.&nbsp; Newe=
r trucks have higher horsepower, but an engine programmer on an older Cummi=
ngs diesel gives great results.&nbsp;</span>
  </div>
  <div style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: helvetica, arial, sans-serif;=
 color: #333333;">
   <span style=3D"font-family: helvetica; font-size: 12pt;"><br></span>
  </div>
  <div style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: helvetica, arial, sans-serif;=
 color: #333333;">
   <span style=3D"font-family: helvetica; font-size: 12pt;">Curt Johnston</=
span>
  </div>
  <blockquote type=3D"cite">
   <div>
    On 09/23/2020 10:31 AM Barr, Scott via Fot &lt;[email-masked]&gt; w=
rote:
   </div>
   <div>
    <br>
   </div>
   <div>
    <br>
   </div>
   <div class=3D"WordSection1">
    <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: '=
Century Gothic',sans-serif; color: black;">Hi all,</span></p>
    <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: '=
Century Gothic',sans-serif; color: black;">&nbsp;</span></p>
    <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: '=
Century Gothic',sans-serif; color: black;">I=E2=80=99ve been towing a 24-fo=
ot toy-hauler style trailer for a few years now.&nbsp; It=E2=80=99s 14 feet=
 of =E2=80=9Cgarage=E2=80=9D space in the back and 10 feet of RV in the fro=
nt (toilet, shower, fridge, kitchen area).&nbsp; All in, full of water, car=
 loaded, it weighs about 9,500 lbs.&nbsp; I load the trailer so I have abou=
t 1,750 pounds of tongue weight, which is technically a little over the pay=
load limit of the truck, but not too bad.</span></p>
    <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: '=
Century Gothic',sans-serif; color: black;">&nbsp;</span></p>
    <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: '=
Century Gothic',sans-serif; color: black;">I=E2=80=99ve been towing with a =
2017 F-150, with a max tow package putting towing capacity at about 12,000 =
lbs. V6 twin turbo EcoBoost with 375hp and 470 ft lb torque. &nbsp;I use a =
good weight-distributing hitch and a sway control strut. &nbsp;And I added =
Air Lift air suspension to help with the extra load. &nbsp;Generally speaki=
ng, the F-150 has been doing just fine.&nbsp; But when it=E2=80=99s windy t=
he trailer gets a little tail-happy, wagging enough sometimes to set off th=
e truck=E2=80=99s automatic trailer sway alarm (it=E2=80=99s a big baby=E2=
=80=A6). </span></p>
    <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: '=
Century Gothic',sans-serif; color: black;">&nbsp;</span></p>
    <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: '=
Century Gothic',sans-serif; color: black;">So I=E2=80=99ve been trying to d=
etermine whether moving up to an F-250 super duty would make an appreciable=
 difference in the towing performance.&nbsp; An F-250 is 1000-1500 pounds h=
eavier than my F-150, depending on specs of both trucks.&nbsp; Is that enou=
gh to make a noticeable difference?&nbsp; Are there other factors that woul=
d make it that much better than an F-150?</span></p>
    <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: '=
Century Gothic',sans-serif; color: black;">&nbsp;</span></p>
    <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: '=
Century Gothic',sans-serif; color: black;">The F-150 with the twin turbo V6=
 and 10-speed trans makes for a nice street car, with reasonable mileage (a=
bout 19 average) =E2=80=93 and it=E2=80=99s what I drive all winter.&nbsp; =
The F-250 Super Duty will get considerably crappier mileage and will be a l=
ess friendly daily driver (I assume).&nbsp; Not to mention that my F-150 is=
 pretty close to paid off and I=E2=80=99d be taking on another boatload of =
debt to move up to the F-250.&nbsp; Which is all to say that the towing per=
formance improvement would need to be considerable before I would make the =
move.&nbsp; </span></p>
    <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: '=
Century Gothic',sans-serif; color: black;">&nbsp;</span></p>
    <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: '=
Century Gothic',sans-serif; color: black;">What say you, towing brain trust=
?&nbsp; Is it worth the move? </span></p>
    <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: '=
Century Gothic',sans-serif; color: black;">&nbsp;</span></p>
    <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: '=
Century Gothic',sans-serif; color: black;">Scott (B.)</span></p>
   </div>_______________________________________________
   <br>[email-masked]
   <br>
   <br>http://www.fot-racing.com
   <br>
   <br>Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
   <br>Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail=
/fot
   <br>Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/curt.j=
[email-masked]
   <br>
   <br>
   <br>
  </blockquote>=20
 </body>
</html>
------=_Part_52406_296116519.1600885014125--

--===============1270103271931770462==
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline

--===============1270103271931770462==--

---

From: Duncan Charlton via Fot <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2020 19:43:28 -0500

--===============2383359975808319842==

--00000000000046a72f05b0047f6f
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The things I pay attention to are the engine power (rarely a limiting
factor), transmission (if a tow package isn't fitted, expect to change
fluid at least twice as often as recommended; you don't want that fluid to
turn black), brakes (trailer brakes must be kept in excellent condition)
and stated tow limits including the tongue weight limitation and the gross
combined vehicle weight rating.  Remember the up/down, left/right and
fore/aft forces on your hitch are working the mounting points on your tow
vehicle, so towing with a 1/2 ton might mean you have to keep an eagle eye
on loading.  If you use a huge offset on your hitch (I've seen plenty of
lifted trucks using at least a 10" drop) you are significantly increasing
the torque effect of that long arm to the loading on the frame.

The 2007 Toyota Tundra I sold last year was rated at 10,600 towing capacity
and 1060 lb tongue weight (with a load distributing hitch; without one it
drops to 5000/500).  I could see that the frame rails where the hitch
attaches are very thick.  Empty weight on the truck is over 5250 lbs lbs
when completely empty and the GVWR is 6900 so to pull that load the truck
itself must be kept very lightly loaded.  Fuel fuel is 156 lbs.  Add a 180
lb driver and a few travel extras and that leaves a margin of 1300-ish lbs
for tongue weight.

One wants to be pretty accurate with the tongue weight when towing at
the GCVWR (I couldn't find this figure for the Tundra but assume it has to
be well over 15850, otherwise, assuming the trailer weight is 10,600, there
is zero capacity left for driver, fuel, etc.).  How many of us weigh our
total rig, the trailer weight, and just as important, the tongue weight?  I
tried one of those hitch balls with an integral weight scale but it was
junk.  Thankfully the local cotton gin charges very little to weigh
vehicles.  There are some salvage yards not far away from my home that also
will let me use their weighbridge but they always seem a lot busier than
the cotton gin.  You can use the trailer jack to put the hitch at the same
height used while towing if you're going to weigh the trailer tongue
separately.

These days we tow with a 170" WB Sprinter Roadtrek camper van with a
standard body and the 3.0 turbodiesel.  It's rated at 7000/700 lbs. but I
keep that to 6800 max when not traveling solo; however my typical weight
with a race car in the 18' enclosed box trailer is less than 6000.  No
problems so far, but I do change the transmission oil early and I keep an
eye on transmission fluid temperature (using a ScanGauge II that plugs into
the OBD-II terminal) when towing in the mountains.

By the way, I love my little Bluetooth camera on the back of the trailer.
Signal is strong enough and monitor image is fine.  I feel more confident
when returning to the right lane after passing.  The one I bought doesn't
seem to be offered any more but this model is what shows up when I look for
my previous Amazon order:
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B07DW7981G/ref=3Dppx_yo_dt_b_search_asi=
n_title?ie=3DUTF8&psc=3D1

Duncan

On Wed, Sep 23, 2020 at 1:18 PM Curt Johnston via Fot <[email-masked]>
wrote:

> Scott,
>
> I ended up trading a 2017 Chevy 1500 for a 2003 Dodge Ram dually last
> month.  My wife thought I was crazy, but I found one with just 87k miles
> and in great shape.  I can now haul both of my cars in a larger trailer.
> The older Dodges of that era don't have all the smog equipment or use DEF
> that kills fuel mileage.
>
> I thought using a dually as a regular driver would be too impractical.
> But around town I get nearly 20 MPG, which is better that the Chevy with
> the V8.  I targeted Dodges in the year range of 2003 to 2006 and waited
> until I found one in great shape.  Still cost over $20k however.  But
> that's better than $60-$70k for a new one that gets 10 miles per gallon.
> Newer trucks have higher horsepower, but an engine programmer on an older
> Cummings diesel gives great results.
>
> Curt Johnston
>
> On 09/23/2020 10:31 AM Barr, Scott via Fot <[email-masked]> wrote:
>
>
> Hi all,
>
>
>
rs now.
 feet of RV in the front
d,
ds
g towing
t
=80=99s
et
baby=E2=80=A6).
per duty
=E2=80=99s what I
ng on
at
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked]
>
>
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked]
>
>
>

--00000000000046a72f05b0047f6f
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:garamond=
,serif;font-size:large">The things I pay attention to are the engine power =
(rarely a limiting factor), transmission (if a tow package isn&#39;t fitted=
, expect to change fluid at least twice as often as recommended; you don&#3=
9;t want that fluid to turn black), brakes (trailer brakes must be kept in =
excellent condition) and stated tow limits including the tongue weight limi=
tation and the gross combined vehicle weight rating.=C2=A0 Remember the up/=
down, left/right and fore/aft forces on your hitch are working the mounting=
 points on your tow vehicle, so towing with a 1/2 ton might mean you have t=
o keep an eagle eye on loading.=C2=A0 If you use a huge offset on your hitc=
h (I&#39;ve seen plenty of lifted trucks using at least a 10&quot; drop) yo=
u are significantly increasing the torque effect of that long arm to the lo=
ading on the frame.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:=
garamond,serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" styl=
e=3D"font-family:garamond,serif;font-size:large">The 2007 Toyota Tundra I s=
old last year was rated at 10,600 towing capacity and 1060 lb tongue weight=
 (with a load distributing hitch; without one it drops to 5000/500).=C2=A0 =
I could see that the frame rails where the hitch attaches are very thick.=
=C2=A0 Empty weight on the truck is over 5250 lbs lbs when completely empty=
 and the GVWR is 6900 so to pull that load the truck itself must be kept ve=
ry lightly loaded.=C2=A0 Fuel fuel is 156 lbs.=C2=A0 Add a 180 lb driver an=
d a few travel extras and that leaves a margin of 1300-ish lbs for tongue w=
eight.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:garamond,seri=
f;font-size:large"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-fam=
ily:garamond,serif;font-size:large">One wants to be pretty accurate with th=
e tongue weight when towing at the=C2=A0GCVWR=C2=A0(I couldn&#39;t find thi=
s figure for the=C2=A0Tundra but assume it has to be well over 15850, other=
wise, assuming the trailer weight is 10,600, there is zero capacity left fo=
r driver, fuel, etc.).=C2=A0 How many of us weigh our total rig, the traile=
r weight, and just as important, the tongue weight?=C2=A0 I tried one of th=
ose hitch balls with an integral weight scale but it was junk.=C2=A0 Thankf=
ully the local cotton gin charges very little to weigh vehicles.=C2=A0 Ther=
e are some salvage yards not far away from my home that also will let me us=
e their weighbridge but they always seem a lot busier than the cotton gin.=
=C2=A0 You can use the trailer jack to put the hitch at the same height use=
d while towing if you&#39;re going to weigh the trailer tongue separately.<=
/div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:garamond,serif;font-=
size:large"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:gar=
amond,serif;font-size:large">These days we tow with a 170&quot; WB Sprinter=
 Roadtrek camper van with a standard body and the 3.0 turbodiesel.=C2=A0 It=
&#39;s rated at 7000/700 lbs. but I keep that to 6800 max when not travelin=
g solo; however my typical weight with a race car in the 18&#39; enclosed b=
ox trailer is less than 6000.=C2=A0 No problems so far, but I do change the=
 transmission oil early and I keep an eye on transmission fluid temperature=
 (using a ScanGauge II that plugs into the OBD-II terminal) when towing in =
the mountains.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:garam=
ond,serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"=
font-family:garamond,serif;font-size:large">By the way, I love my little Bl=
uetooth camera on the back of the trailer.=C2=A0 Signal is strong enough an=
d monitor image is fine.=C2=A0 I feel more confident when returning to the =
right lane after passing.=C2=A0 The one I bought doesn&#39;t seem to be off=
ered any more but this model is what shows up when I look for my previous A=
mazon order:</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:garamon=
d,serif;font-size:large"><a href=3D"https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B07=
DW7981G/ref=3Dppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=3DUTF8&amp;psc=3D1">https://=
smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B07DW7981G/ref=3Dppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?=
ie=3DUTF8&amp;psc=3D1</a><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"fo=
nt-family:garamond,serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_def=
ault" style=3D"font-family:garamond,serif;font-size:large">Duncan</div></di=
v><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On W=
ed, Sep 23, 2020 at 1:18 PM Curt Johnston via Fot &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fot=
@autox.team.net" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br></d=
iv><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bord=
er-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><u></u>

 =20
  =20
=20
 <div>
  <div style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif;color=
:rgb(51,51,51)">
   <span style=3D"font-family:helvetica;font-size:12pt">Scott,</span>
   <br>
  </div>
  <div style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif;color=
:rgb(51,51,51)">
   <span style=3D"font-family:helvetica;font-size:12pt"><br></span>
  </div>
  <div style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif;color=
:rgb(51,51,51)">
   <span style=3D"font-family:helvetica;font-size:12pt">I ended up trading =
a 2017 Chevy 1500 for a 2003 Dodge Ram dually last month.=C2=A0 My wife tho=
ught I was crazy, but I found one with just 87k miles and in great shape.=
=C2=A0 I can now haul both of my cars in a larger trailer.=C2=A0 The older =
Dodges of that era don&#39;t have all the smog equipment or use DEF that ki=
lls fuel mileage.=C2=A0 </span>
  </div>
  <div style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif;color=
:rgb(51,51,51)">
   <span style=3D"font-family:helvetica;font-size:12pt"><br></span>
  </div>
  <div style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif;color=
:rgb(51,51,51)">
   <span style=3D"font-family:helvetica;font-size:12pt">I thought using a d=
ually as a regular driver would be too impractical.=C2=A0 But around town I=
 get nearly 20 MPG, which is better that the Chevy with the V8.=C2=A0 I tar=
geted Dodges in the year range of 2003 to 2006 and waited until I found one=
 in great shape.=C2=A0 Still cost over $20k however.=C2=A0 But that&#39;s b=
etter than $60-$70k for a new one that gets 10 miles per gallon.=C2=A0 Newe=
r trucks have higher horsepower, but an engine programmer on an older Cummi=
ngs diesel gives great results.=C2=A0</span>
  </div>
  <div style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif;color=
:rgb(51,51,51)">
   <span style=3D"font-family:helvetica;font-size:12pt"><br></span>
  </div>
  <div style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif;color=
:rgb(51,51,51)">
   <span style=3D"font-family:helvetica;font-size:12pt">Curt Johnston</span=
  </div>
  <blockquote type=3D"cite">
   <div>
    On 09/23/2020 10:31 AM Barr, Scott via Fot &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fot@au=
tox.team.net" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:
   </div>
   <div>
    <br>
   </div>
   <div>
    <br>
   </div>
   <div>
    <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;=
Century Gothic&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Hi all,</span></p>
    <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;=
Century Gothic&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">=C2=A0</span></p>
    <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;=
Century Gothic&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">I=E2=80=99ve been towing a 24-=
foot toy-hauler style trailer for a few years now.=C2=A0 It=E2=80=99s 14 fe=
et of =E2=80=9Cgarage=E2=80=9D space in the back and 10 feet of RV in the f=
ront (toilet, shower, fridge, kitchen area).=C2=A0 All in, full of water, c=
ar loaded, it weighs about 9,500 lbs.=C2=A0 I load the trailer so I have ab=
out 1,750 pounds of tongue weight, which is technically a little over the p=
ayload limit of the truck, but not too bad.</span></p>
    <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;=
Century Gothic&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">=C2=A0</span></p>
    <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;=
Century Gothic&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">I=E2=80=99ve been towing with =
a 2017 F-150, with a max tow package putting towing capacity at about 12,00=
0 lbs. V6 twin turbo EcoBoost with 375hp and 470 ft lb torque.=C2=A0 I use =
a good weight-distributing hitch and a sway control strut.=C2=A0 And I adde=
d Air Lift air suspension to help with the extra load.=C2=A0 Generally spea=
king, the F-150 has been doing just fine.=C2=A0 But when it=E2=80=99s windy=
 the trailer gets a little tail-happy, wagging enough sometimes to set off =
the truck=E2=80=99s automatic trailer sway alarm (it=E2=80=99s a big baby=
=E2=80=A6). </span></p>
    <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;=
Century Gothic&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">=C2=A0</span></p>
    <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;=
Century Gothic&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">So I=E2=80=99ve been trying to=
 determine whether moving up to an F-250 super duty would make an appreciab=
le difference in the towing performance.=C2=A0 An F-250 is 1000-1500 pounds=
 heavier than my F-150, depending on specs of both trucks.=C2=A0 Is that en=
ough to make a noticeable difference?=C2=A0 Are there other factors that wo=
uld make it that much better than an F-150?</span></p>
    <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;=
Century Gothic&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">=C2=A0</span></p>
    <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;=
Century Gothic&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">The F-150 with the twin turbo =
V6 and 10-speed trans makes for a nice street car, with reasonable mileage =
(about 19 average) =E2=80=93 and it=E2=80=99s what I drive all winter.=C2=
=A0 The F-250 Super Duty will get considerably crappier mileage and will be=
 a less friendly daily driver (I assume).=C2=A0 Not to mention that my F-15=
0 is pretty close to paid off and I=E2=80=99d be taking on another boatload=
 of debt to move up to the F-250.=C2=A0 Which is all to say that the towing=
 performance improvement would need to be considerable before I would make =
the move.=C2=A0 </span></p>
    <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;=
Century Gothic&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">=C2=A0</span></p>
    <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;=
Century Gothic&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">What say you, towing brain tru=
st?=C2=A0 Is it worth the move? </span></p>
    <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;=
Century Gothic&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">=C2=A0</span></p>
    <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;=
Century Gothic&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Scott (B.)</span></p>
   </div>_______________________________________________
   <br><a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]=
am.net</a>
   <br>
   <br><a href=3D"http://www.fot-racing.com" target=3D"_blank">http://www.f=
ot-racing.com</a>
   <br>
   <br>Donate: <a href=3D"http://www.team.net/donate.html" target=3D"_blank=
">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a>
   <br>Archive: <a href=3D"http://autox.team.net/archive" target=3D"_blank"=
>http://autox.team.net/archive</a> <a href=3D"http://www.team.net/pipermail=
/fot" target=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot</a>
   <br>Unsubscribe/Manage: <a href=3D"http://autox.team.net/mailman/options=
/fot/[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">http://autox.team.net/mai=
lman/options/fot/[email-masked]</a>
   <br>
   <br>
   <br>
  </blockquote>=20
 </div>
_______________________________________________<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]<=
/a><br>
<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.fot-racing.com" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">=
http://www.fot-racing.com</a><br>
<br>
et=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a><br>
Archive: <a href=3D"http://autox.team.net/archive" rel=3D"noreferrer" targe=
t=3D"_blank">http://autox.team.net/archive</a> <a href=3D"http://www.team.n=
et/pipermail/fotUnsubscribe/Manage" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tp://www.team.net/pipermail/fot<br>
t/[email-masked]" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://=
autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked]</a><br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div>

--00000000000046a72f05b0047f6f--

--===============2383359975808319842==
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline

--===============2383359975808319842==--