Subject: Re: [Fot] Center main support

From: Steven Belfer via Fot <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2019 15:31:35 -0800

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Mmmmmmm schnitzel=20

~Steve

> On Nov 24, 2019, at 3:29 PM, Chris Marx via Fot <[email-masked]> wrote=
:
>=20
> =EF=BB=BF
> To add:
> The reason for the deformation of the crank is cause by the ignition force=
s.
> The rod is hammering on one place of the bearing journal and like a Schnit=
zel it expands at that place from hammering on which bends the crank.
> Simple as that J
> =20
> Cheers
> Chris
> =20
> =20
> Von: Fot <[email-masked]> Im Auftrag von Phil Gott via Fot
> Gesendet: Sonntag, 24. November 2019 22:03
> An: Friends Of Triumph <[email-masked]>
> Betreff: Re: [Fot] Center main support
> =20
> Interesting, Chris:
> My machine shop said that .002=E2=80=9D run out at the center main, with t=
he crank supported and spun on numbers 1 and 3 was a sign that it was develo=
ping high levels of internal stress (work hardening) and that it should be r=
etired. They aim for 0 run out under these conditions. Based on what you=E2=80=
=99ve said, I wonder if they are being overly cautious. As they do not grind=
 cranks themselves ( only polishing and balancing), they had little to gain f=
rom that diagnosis.
> Thanks for the input.
> Sent from my iPhone
>=20
>=20
> On Nov 24, 2019, at 9:26 AM, Tony Drews <[email-masked]> wrote:
>=20
> =EF=BB=BF
> Wow!  It's very nicely done.  Certainly overkill.
>=20
> Regards, Tony
>=20
> On 11/23/2019 9:11 PM, Phil Gott wrote:
> Here are some photos:
> =20
> =20
> =20
> =20
> =20
> Sent from my iPhone
>=20
>=20
> On Nov 23, 2019, at 12:23 PM, Tony Drews <[email-masked]> wrote:
>=20
> =EF=BB=BF
> I agree, that sounds like overkill.  Mine only requires the top of the cap=
 to be machined flat, no other block mods.
>=20
> Regards, Tony
>=20
> On 11/23/2019 5:42 AM, Phil Gott wrote:
> Thanks again, Tony:
> The one we have, built by the late Bill  Throop, in addition to reinforcin=
g the cap itself, has the block machined internally to accept the sides of a=
 strap, then the strap  is cross bolted from the sides, through the block fr=
om outside.  I=E2=80=99m wondering if this is a bit of overkill. Based on yo=
ur recommendation, it seems to be.
> Maybe I can send some pictures later today, as we are pulling the engine t=
oday for other work.
> Phil
>=20
> Sent from my iPhone
>=20
>=20
> On Nov 22, 2019, at 10:56 PM, Tony Drews <[email-masked]> wrote:
>=20
> =EF=BB=BF
> I run that setup, it was an uncle jack trick.  Here's what he wrote about t=
hat (on my engine building tips page):
>=20
> "I also like to strap the center main to add rigidity to the bottom end.  T=
o do this, mill off the cast face of the main flush with the surfaces for th=
e head bolts. Get a front strap for a Chevy 400 block. You must enlarge the h=
oles in the strap  and you must use longer bolts.  Some  builders feel that t=
his is totally unnecessary, but since starting to do this, I have never had a=
 main bearing deteriorate faster than a rod bearing, which is something that=
 happens more frequently than you would expect."
>=20
> Regards, Tony Drews
> =20
> On 11/22/2019 3:58 PM, Phil Gott via Fot wrote:
> Has anyone seen the need to add extra support to the center main on the TR=
 wet sleeve engine? We have an engine that has a steel bridge cross-bolted u=
nderneath and supporting the center main cap. Is this needed? Just took 3 fa=
ctory cranks to the machine shop and all three were bent about .002 in (.002=
 run out at center main when supported on first and last mains.) Two of thes=
e were raced, the third was removed from a tired street engine. note: None o=
f these cranks came out of the engine with extra support at the center.
> Curious as to the need for the extra support.
> Thanks,
> Phil Gott
> 114 TR4A
> =20
> Sent from my iPhone
> _______________________________________________
> [email-masked]
> =20
> http://www.fot-racing.com
> =20
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/tony@tonydre=
ws.com
> =20
> =20
> =20
> _______________________________________________
> [email-masked]
>=20
> http://www.fot-racing.com
>=20
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/steve@artwit=
hcars.com
>=20
>=20

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto">Mmmmmmm schnitzel&nbsp;<br><br><div dir=3D"=
ltr">~Steve<div><br></div></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><blockquote type=3D"cit=
e">On Nov 24, 2019, at 3:29 PM, Chris Marx via Fot &lt;[email-masked]&gt=
; wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr=
">=EF=BB=BF<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"><meta name=3D"Generator" content=3D"Microsoft Word 15 (filtered mediu=
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<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--><div class=3D"WordSection1"><p class=3D"Ms=
oNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-US">To add:<o=
:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso=
-fareast-language:EN-US">The reason for the deformation of the crank is caus=
e by the ignition forces.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span l=
ang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-US">The rod is hammering on o=
ne place of the bearing journal and like a Schnitzel it expands at that plac=
e from hammering on which bends the crank.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Simple a=
s that </span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Wingdings;mso-fareas=
t-language:EN-US">J</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language=
:EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3D"M=
soNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Cheers<o=
:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso=
-fareast-language:EN-US">Chris<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><=
span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-la=
nguage:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div style=3D"border:none;bor=
der-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm"><p class=3D"MsoNormal=
"><b>Von:</b> Fot &lt;[email-masked]&gt; <b>Im Auftrag von </b>P=
hil Gott via Fot<br><b>Gesendet:</b> Sonntag, 24. November 2019 22:03<br><b>=
An:</b> Friends Of Triumph &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br><b>Betreff:</b> Re:=
 [Fot] Center main support<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=
<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Interesting, Chris:<o:p></o:p></=
p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">My machine shop said that .002=E2=80=9D run ou=
t at the center main, with the crank supported and spun on numbers 1 and 3 w=
as a sign that it was developing high levels of internal stress (work harden=
ing) and that it should be retired. They aim for 0 run out under these condi=
tions. Based on what you=E2=80=99ve said, I wonder if they are being overly c=
autious. As they do not grind cranks themselves ( only polishing and balanci=
ng), they had little to gain from that diagnosis.<br>Thanks for the input.<o=
:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Sent from my iPhone<o:p></o:p></p><=
/div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style=3D=
"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margi=
n-bottom:12.0pt">On Nov 24, 2019, at 9:26 AM, Tony Drews &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></blo=
ckquote></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><di=
v><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=EF=BB=BF <o:p></o:p></p><p>Wow!&nbsp; It's very ni=
cely done.&nbsp; Certainly overkill.<o:p></o:p></p><p>Regards, Tony<o:p></o:=
p></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 11/23/2019 9:11 PM, Phil Gott wrote:<o:=
p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"=
><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Here are some photos: <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal">&lt;image0.jpeg&gt;<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNor=
mal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&lt;image1.jpeg&gt;<o:=
p></o:p></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3D=
"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&lt;image2.jpeg=
&gt;<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p cla=
ss=3D"MsoNormal">Sent from my iPhone<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3D"Ms=
oNormal"><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin=
-bottom:5.0pt"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">On Nov 2=
3, 2019, at 12:23 PM, Tony Drews <a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">&lt;t=
[email-masked]&gt;</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div><blockquot=
e style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"=
>=EF=BB=BF <o:p></o:p></p><p>I agree, that sounds like overkill.&nbsp; Mine o=
nly requires the top of the cap to be machined flat, no other block mods.<o:=
p></o:p></p><p>Regards, Tony<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 11=
/23/2019 5:42 AM, Phil Gott wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style=3D"=
margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks again, T=
ony: <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">The one we have, built by th=
e late Bill &nbsp;Throop, in addition to reinforcing the cap itself, has the=
 block machined internally to accept the sides of a strap, then the strap &n=
bsp;is cross bolted from the sides, through the block from outside. &nbsp;I=E2=
=80=99m wondering if this is a bit of overkill. Based on your recommendation=
, it seems to be.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Maybe I ca=
n send some pictures later today, as we are pulling the engine today for oth=
er work.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bot=
tom:12.0pt">Phil<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Sent from my iPho=
ne<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><b=
lockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><p class=3D"MsoNorm=
al" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">On Nov 22, 2019, at 10:56 PM, Tony Drews <=
a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">&lt;[email-masked]&gt;</a> wrote:<o=
:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin=
-bottom:5.0pt"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=EF=BB=BF <o:p></o:p></p><p>I run=
 that setup, it was an uncle jack trick.&nbsp; Here's what he wrote about th=
at (on my engine building tips page):<o:p></o:p></p><p><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:13.5pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;color:black;background:=
white">"I also like to strap the center main to add rigidity to the bottom e=
nd.&nbsp; To do this, mill off the cast face of the main flush with the surf=
aces for the head bolts. Get a front strap for a Chevy 400 block. You must e=
nlarge the holes in the strap&nbsp; and you must use longer bolts. &nbsp;Som=
e&nbsp; builders feel that this is totally unnecessary, but since starting t=
o do this, I have never had a main bearing deteriorate faster than a rod bea=
ring, which is something that happens more frequently than you would expect.=
"</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards, Tony Drews<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><=
p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 11/22/2019 3:58 PM, Phil Gott via Fot wrote:<o:p></=
o:p></p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><pr=
e>Has anyone seen the need to add extra support to the center main on the TR=
 wet sleeve engine? We have an engine that has a steel bridge cross-bolted u=
nderneath and supporting the center main cap. Is this needed? Just took 3 fa=
ctory cranks to the machine shop and all three were bent about .002 in (.002=
 run out at center main when supported on first and last mains.) Two of thes=
e were raced, the third was removed from a tired street engine. note: None o=
f these cranks came out of the engine with extra support at the center.<o:p>=
</o:p></pre><pre>Curious as to the need for the extra support.<o:p></o:p></p=
re><pre>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Phil Gott<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>114 TR4A=
<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>Sent from my iPhone<o:p></=
o:p></pre><pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></p=
re><pre><a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a><o:p></o=
:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre><a href=3D"http://www.fot-racing.c=
om">http://www.fot-racing.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pr=
e><pre>Donate: <a href=3D"http://www.team.net/donate.html">http://www.team.n=
et/donate.html</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Archive: <a href=3D"http://autox.tea=
m.net/archive">http://autox.team.net/archive</a> <a href=3D"http://www.team.=
net/pipermail/fot">http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pr=
e>Unsubscribe/Manage: <a href=3D"http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/t=
[email-masked]">http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/tony@tonydrews.=
com</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre></blockquote></div></blockquote></div></bloc=
kquote></div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div></div>=
<span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>fot@au=
tox.team.net</span><br><span></span><br><span>http://www.fot-racing.com</spa=
n><br><span></span><br><span>Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html</span><=
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--===============0918205924142297238==--

---

From: Chuck Gee via Fot <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2019 17:28:02 -0800

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That=E2=80=99s funny, I said the same thing to myself when I read his email!=

Chuck

> On Nov 24, 2019, at 3:31 PM, Steven Belfer via Fot <[email-masked]> wr=
ote:
>=20
> =EF=BB=BFMmmmmmm schnitzel=20
>=20
> ~Steve
>=20
>=20
>>> On Nov 24, 2019, at 3:29 PM, Chris Marx via Fot <[email-masked]> wro=
te:
>>>=20
>> =EF=BB=BF
>> To add:
>> The reason for the deformation of the crank is cause by the ignition forc=
es.
>> The rod is hammering on one place of the bearing journal and like a Schni=
tzel it expands at that place from hammering on which bends the crank.
>> I agree, that sounds like overkill.  Mine only requires the top of the ca=
p to be machined flat, no other block mods.
>> The one we have, built by the late Bill  Throop, in addition to reinforci=
ng the cap itself, has the block machined internally to accept the sides of a=
 strap, then the strap  is cross bolted from the sides, through the block fr=
om outside.  I=E2=80=99m wondering if this is a bit of overkill. Based on yo=
ur recommendation, it seems to be.
oday for other work.
>> I run that setup, it was an uncle jack trick.  Here's what he wrote about=
 that (on my engine building tips page):
>>=20
>> "I also like to strap the center main to add rigidity to the bottom end. =
 To do this, mill off the cast face of the main flush with the surfaces for t=
he head bolts. Get a front strap for a Chevy 400 block. You must enlarge the=
 holes in the strap  and you must use longer bolts.  Some  builders feel tha=
t this is totally unnecessary, but since starting to do this, I have never h=
ad a main bearing deteriorate faster than a rod bearing, which is something t=
hat happens more frequently than you would expect."
>> Has anyone seen the need to add extra support to the center main on the T=
R wet sleeve engine? We have an engine that has a steel bridge cross-bolted u=
>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/tony@tonydr=
ews.com
>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/steve@artwi=
thcars.com
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/chasgee22@gm=
ail.com

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utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto">That=E2=80=99s funny, I said the same thing=
 to myself when I read his email!<br><br><div dir=3D"ltr">Chuck</div><div di=
r=3D"ltr"><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">On Nov 24, 2019, at 3:31 PM, Steven B=
elfer via Fot &lt;[email-masked]&gt; wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><b=
lockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF<meta http-equiv=3D"conten=
t-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8">Mmmmmmm schnitzel&nbsp;<br><b=
r><div dir=3D"ltr">~Steve<div><br></div></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><blockquo=
te type=3D"cite">On Nov 24, 2019, at 3:29 PM, Chris Marx via Fot &lt;fot@aut=
ox.team.net&gt; wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><=
div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/h=
tml; charset=3Dutf-8"><meta name=3D"Generator" content=3D"Microsoft Word 15 (=
filtered medium)"><style><!--
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