Subject: [Fot] Weird Race Weekend Question

From: "Mathieu W. Huovinen via Fot" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 03:38:27 +0000 (UTC)

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Fellas,
Sounds like we have the bearing cap strap issue resolved...who is up for an=
other mystery? Has anyone ever has their timing chain skip a tooth??
Final race on Saturday at the Turlkey Bowl this weekend at Summit Point. Tr=
iumph Spitfire..1296 engine. Double roller chain set. Car was running well =
all weekend, was out twice earlier that day. We leave false grid for the to=
 set up for the first lap and I begin to accelerate. All of a sudden the ca=
r just dies and I coast off the track even before turn one. On the side of =
the track I couldn't start the car. In my mind I'm thinking my perrtonix di=
stributor just took a shit. Got towed in and all I'm thinking in pertronix.=
 I swap in a points distributor and nothing. Perhaps my coil? Swap in a new=
 coil. Nothing. Plugs perhaps? Swap in a good set of NGKs. Nothing. Not eve=
n a cough out of the engine. By this time I had run down the battery from t=
rying to start it so much. At this point I was jumping the racecar battery =
from my Tundra truck battery thinking perhaps a weak spark from a shot batt=
ery. Nothing. Was getting plenty of fuel because the plugs were wet. I even=
 pulled and cleaned all the jets out of the Weber 45 DCOE just to make sure=
 I was getting correct fuel. Fuel. Air. Spark. COMPRESSION. This next day (=
this morning) I did a compression test at the track. 80/70/70/70. What the =
heck? Thats not a blown head gasket..the cam HAS to be out of timing. I spe=
nt the majority of the 5 hour drive home trying to figure it out. Got home,=
 car off trailer, straight to work. Pulled radiator, pulley, timing chain c=
over. No damage. Find TDC and put on my degree wheel. Pulled rockers and se=
t dial indicator on #1 intake. Tuned engine over to where cam sheet says wh=
ere #1 centerline is- 104 degrees after TDC while watching dial indicator. =
Went past 104 and dial was still climbing. Made it to to about 150ish degre=
es past TDC til indicator started to drop back down so I know I had went ri=
ght past the peak of the lobe. Pulled chain off carefully and rotated camsh=
aft until I found peak of lobe and moved crank back to 104 and set the chai=
n back on...about one tooth =C2=A0Put rockers back on and checked compressi=
on on #1. 160 PSI. That's as far as I got before my wife came down to yell =
art me. It was already 2130 at this point. More tomorrow as I put it back t=
ogether.=C2=A0
Thoughts? Ideas? Can the timing chain "float" at high revs? Thank-you in ad=
vance for any input!
V/r,
Mathieu Huovinen
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<div style=3D"color:black;font: 10pt arial;">Fellas,
<div><br>
</div>

<div>Sounds like we have the bearing cap strap issue resolved...who is up f=
or another mystery? Has anyone ever has their timing chain skip a tooth??</=
div>

<div><br>
</div>

<div>Final race on Saturday at the Turlkey Bowl this weekend at Summit Poin=
t. Triumph Spitfire..1296 engine. Double roller chain set. Car was running =
well all weekend, was out twice earlier that day. We leave false grid for t=
he to set up for the first lap and I begin to accelerate. All of a sudden t=
he car just dies and I coast off the track even before turn one. On the sid=
e of the track I couldn't start the car. In my mind I'm thinking my perrton=
ix distributor just took a shit. Got towed in and all I'm thinking in pertr=
onix. I swap in a points distributor and nothing. Perhaps my coil? Swap in =
a new coil. Nothing. Plugs perhaps? Swap in a good set of NGKs. Nothing. No=
t even a cough out of the engine. By this time I had run down the battery f=
rom trying to start it so much. At this point I was jumping the racecar bat=
tery from my Tundra truck battery thinking perhaps a weak spark from a shot=
 battery. Nothing. Was getting plenty of fuel because the plugs were wet. I=
 even pulled and cleaned all the jets out of the Weber 45 DCOE just to make=
 sure I was getting correct fuel. Fuel. Air. Spark. COMPRESSION. This next =
day (this morning) I did a compression test at the track. 80/70/70/70. What=
 the heck? Thats not a blown head gasket..the cam HAS to be out of timing. =
I spent the majority of the 5 hour drive home trying to figure it out. Got =
home, car off trailer, straight to work. Pulled radiator, pulley, timing ch=
ain cover. No damage. Find TDC and put on my degree wheel. Pulled rockers a=
nd set dial indicator on #1 intake. Tuned engine over to where cam sheet sa=
ys where #1 centerline is- 104 degrees after TDC while watching dial indica=
tor. Went past 104 and dial was still climbing. Made it to to about 150ish =
degrees past TDC til indicator started to drop back down so I know I had we=
nt right past the peak of the lobe. Pulled chain off carefully and rotated =
camshaft until I found peak of lobe and moved crank back to 104 and set the=
 chain back on...about one tooth &nbsp;Put rockers back on and checked comp=
ression on #1. 160 PSI. That's as far as I got before my wife came down to =
yell art me. It was already 2130 at this point. More tomorrow as I put it b=
ack together.&nbsp;</div>

<div><br>
</div>

<div>Thoughts? Ideas? Can the timing chain "float" at high revs? Thank-you =
in advance for any input!</div>

<div><br>
</div>

<div>V/r,</div>

<div><br>
</div>

<div>Mathieu Huovinen</div>
</div>

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_______________________________________________
[email-masked]

http://www.fot-racing.com

Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot

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From: David Gott via Fot <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 10:58:04 +0000 (UTC)

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Hi Mathieu,
Haven=E2=80=99t heard of that myself, but you didn=E2=80=99t mention the co=
ndition of the timing chain tensioner. =C2=A0 Was it new recently? =C2=A0 P=
erhaps the spring is too relaxed to keep proper tension on the chain. =C2=
=A0 Also look at the timing cover where the tensioner rides. =C2=A0 Has it =
worn a big groove into the timing cover? =C2=A0Maybe it=E2=80=99s getting h=
eld up. =C2=A0 Compare it with a new tensioner spring, and see if the arc i=
s relaxed a bit.
That=E2=80=99s what I=E2=80=99d check first, but maybe you=E2=80=99ve done =
that. =C2=A0 =C2=A0Is it a stock cam wheel, or is it an adjustable one? =C2=
=A0I=E2=80=99m assuming stock...
Hope that helps!Dave Gott

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

On Sunday, November 24, 2019, 10:38 PM, Mathieu W. Huovinen via Fot <fot@au=
tox.team.net> wrote:

Fellas,
Mathieu Huovinen_______________________________________________
[email-masked]

hoo.com

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ft-com:vml" xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office"><head><!--[=
if gte mso 9]><xml><o:OfficeDocumentSettings><o:AllowPNG/><o:PixelsPerInch>=
96</o:PixelsPerInch></o:OfficeDocumentSettings></xml><![endif]--></head><bo=
dy>
Hi Mathieu,<div><br></div><div>Haven=E2=80=99t heard of that myself, but yo=
u didn=E2=80=99t mention the condition of the timing chain tensioner. &nbsp=
; Was it new recently? &nbsp; Perhaps the spring is too relaxed to keep pro=
per tension on the chain. &nbsp; Also look at the timing cover where the te=
nsioner rides. &nbsp; Has it worn a big groove into the timing cover? &nbsp=
;Maybe it=E2=80=99s getting held up. &nbsp; Compare it with a new tensioner=
 spring, and see if the arc is relaxed a bit.</div><div><br></div><div>That=
=E2=80=99s what I=E2=80=99d check first, but maybe you=E2=80=99ve done that=
. &nbsp; &nbsp;Is it a stock cam wheel, or is it an adjustable one? &nbsp;I=
=E2=80=99m assuming stock...</div><div><br></div><div>Hope that helps!</div=
><div>Dave Gott<br><br><br><a href=3D"https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/?.src=
=3DiOS">Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone</a><br><br><p class=3D"yahoo-quoted=
-begin" style=3D"font-size: 15px; color: #715FFA; padding-top: 15px; margin=
-top: 0">On Sunday, November 24, 2019, 10:38 PM, Mathieu W. Huovinen via Fo=
t &lt;[email-masked]&gt; wrote:</p><blockquote class=3D"iosymail"><div =
id=3D"yiv4862578555">
<div style=3D"color:black;font:10pt arial;">Fellas,
<div><br>
</div>

<div><br>
</div>

<div>Final race on Saturday at the Turlkey Bowl this weekend at Summit Poin=
t. Triumph Spitfire..1296 engine. Double roller chain set. Car was running =
well all weekend, was out twice earlier that day. We leave false grid for t=
he to set up for the first lap and I begin to accelerate. All of a sudden t=
he car just dies and I coast off the track even before turn one. On the sid=
e of the track I couldn't start the car. In my mind I'm thinking my perrton=
ix distributor just took a shit. Got towed in and all I'm thinking in pertr=
onix. I swap in a points distributor and nothing. Perhaps my coil? Swap in =
a new coil. Nothing. Plugs perhaps? Swap in a good set of NGKs. Nothing. No=
t even a cough out of the engine. By this time I had run down the battery f=
rom trying to start it so much. At this point I was jumping the racecar bat=
tery from my Tundra truck battery thinking perhaps a weak spark from a shot=
 battery. Nothing. Was getting plenty of fuel because the plugs were wet. I=
 even pulled and cleaned all the jets out of the Weber 45 DCOE just to make=
 sure I was getting correct fuel. Fuel. Air. Spark. COMPRESSION. This next =
day (this morning) I did a compression test at the track. <a dir=3D"ltr" hr=
ef=3D"tel:80/70/70/70" x-apple-data-detectors=3D"true" x-apple-data-detecto=
rs-type=3D"telephone" x-apple-data-detectors-result=3D"1">80/70/70/70</a>. =
What the heck? Thats not a blown head gasket..the cam HAS to be out of timi=
ng. I spent the majority of the 5 hour drive home trying to figure it out. =
Got home, car off trailer, straight to work. Pulled radiator, pulley, timin=
g chain cover. No damage. Find TDC and put on my degree wheel. Pulled rocke=
rs and set dial indicator on #1 intake. Tuned engine over to where cam shee=
t says where #1 centerline is- 104 degrees after TDC while watching dial in=
dicator. Went past 104 and dial was still climbing. Made it to to about 150=
ish degrees past TDC til indicator started to drop back down so I know I ha=
d went right past the peak of the lobe. Pulled chain off carefully and rota=
ted camshaft until I found peak of lobe and moved crank back to 104 and set=
 the chain back on...about one tooth &nbsp;Put rockers back on and checked =
compression on #1. 160 PSI. That's as far as I got before my wife came down=
 to yell art me. It was already 2130 at this point. More tomorrow as I put =
it back together.&nbsp;</div>

<div><br>
</div>

<div><br>
</div>

<div>V/r,</div>

<div><br>
</div>

<div>Mathieu Huovinen</div>
</div></div>_______________________________________________<br><a ymailto=
=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">fot@autox=
.team.net</a><br><br><a href=3D"http://www.fot-racing.com" target=3D"_blank=
">http://www.fot-racing.com</a><br><br>Donate: <a href=3D"http://www.team.n=
et/donate.html" target=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a><br>Ar=
chive: <a href=3D"http://autox.team.net/archive " target=3D"_blank">http://=
autox.team.net/archive </a><a href=3D"http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot</a><br>Unsubscribe/Manage=
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" target=3D"_blank">http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/triumphsix@ya=
hoo.com</a><br><br><br><blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></div>
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From: Robert Lang via Fot <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 11:21:12 +0000 (UTC)

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 Hi - I've seen this before. Mostly on American V8's but the principle is t=
he same... It's almost always a loose chain or worn teeth on the crank gear=
. If the=C2=A0 crank gear has really sharp teeth, the gear is probably worn=
. Note that this is really easy to overlook. And I've had this problem with=
 TR6 engines a couple of times. Especially if you sourced the inexpensive g=
ears. Seems like the hardening of the metal is wrong on some of the parts o=
ut there.

That said, the numbers look like you jumped more than one tooth. If the "ju=
mp" occurred on the crank end one tooth is about 17 degrees (360/21 teeth).=
 Your mention of 150ish for your lobe center sound more like more than 34 d=
egrees or retard, the progression would be (roughly) 104 - good, 121 - not =
good, 138 - bad, 155 - really bad, etc. Note that I have seen engines run w=
ith more than 30 degrees of retard, but they ran very poorly!
I'd double check your crank gear for wear... actually, I'd just replace it =
along with the tensioner. Note that the current chain tensioners seem to be=
 not as good as the OEM ones as the new ones wear fairly rapidly.
On the plus side, at least you didn't bend a valve in the process.
C ya,Bob Lang339-927-4489

    On Sunday, November 24, 2019, 10:38:49 PM EST, Mathieu W. Huovinen via =
Fot <[email-masked]> wrote: =20
=20
 Fellas,

@yahoo.com

 =20
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<html><head></head><body><div class=3D"ydpc7a6ebd8yahoo-style-wrap" style=
=3D"font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 1=
3px;"><div></div>
        <div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">Hi - I've seen this before. =
Mostly on American V8's but the principle is the same... It's almost always=
 a loose chain or worn teeth on the crank gear. If the&nbsp; crank gear has=
 really sharp teeth, the gear is probably worn. Note that this is really ea=
sy to overlook. And I've had this problem with TR6 engines a couple of time=
s. Especially if you sourced the inexpensive gears. Seems like the hardenin=
g of the metal is wrong on some of the parts out there.<br></div><div dir=
=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"fa=
lse">That said, the numbers look like you jumped more than one tooth. If th=
e "jump" occurred on the crank end one tooth is about 17 degrees (360/21 te=
eth). Your mention of 150ish for your lobe center sound more like more than=
 34 degrees or retard, the progression would be (roughly) 104 - good, 121 -=
 not good, 138 - bad, 155 - really bad, etc. Note that I have seen engines =
run with more than 30 degrees of retard, but they ran very poorly!</div><di=
v dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=
=3D"false">I'd double check your crank gear for wear... actually, I'd just =
replace it along with the tensioner. Note that the current chain tensioners=
 seem to be not as good as the OEM ones as the new ones wear fairly rapidly=
.</div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" da=
ta-setdir=3D"false">On the plus side, at least you didn't bend a valve in t=
he process.</div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false"><br></div><div dir=
=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">C ya,</div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"f=
alse">Bob Lang</div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">339-927-4489<br>=
</div><div><br></div>
       =20
        </div><div id=3D"ydpc2efc1c9yahoo_quoted_5402201527" class=3D"ydpc2=
efc1c9yahoo_quoted">
            <div style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, s=
ans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#26282a;">
               =20
                <div>
                    On Sunday, November 24, 2019, 10:38:49 PM EST, Mathieu =
W. Huovinen via Fot &lt;[email-masked]&gt; wrote:
                </div>
                <div><br></div>
                <div><br></div>
                <div><div id=3D"ydpc2efc1c9yiv0645507289">
<div style=3D"color: black; font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; font-s=
tretch: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-family: arial; f=
ont-size-adjust: none;">Fellas,
<div><br>
</div>

<div><br>
</div>

<div><br>
</div>

<div><br>
</div>

<div>V/r,</div>

<div><br>
</div>

<div>Mathieu Huovinen</div>
</div></div>_______________________________________________<br><a href=3D"m=
ailto:[email-masked]" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]=
.net</a><br><br><a href=3D"http://www.fot-racing.com" rel=3D"nofollow" targ=
et=3D"_blank">http://www.fot-racing.com</a><br><br>Donate: <a href=3D"http:=
//www.team.net/donate.html" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">http://www.t=
eam.net/donate.html</a><br>Archive: <a href=3D"http://autox.team.net/archiv=
e " rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">http://autox.team.net/archive </a><a=
 href=3D"http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_bla=
nk">http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot</a><br>Unsubscribe/Manage: <a href=3D=
"http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/[email-masked]" rel=3D"=
nofollow" target=3D"_blank">http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/rober=
[email-masked]</a><br><br><br></div>
            </div>
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From: "Mathieu W. Huovinen via Fot" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 12:14:06 +0000 (UTC)

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Gents,
I do have an adjustable cam gear and it was tight. Double roller, cam gear,=
 and crank gear all sourced from Jigsaw Racking UK about two years ago. May=
be 5 weekends worth of use. I did reuse the chain tensioner that was in the=
 timing chain cover (unknown use- likely stock from the early 70s) and I wi=
ll admit it is the tensioner for a single chain- it also seems pretty worn.=
 I am ordering a double chain tensioner from Moss this a.m. and see how it =
differs and will swap them out. Thanks for the responses!
Mathieu

-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Lang <[email-masked]>
To: fot <[email-masked]>; Mathieu W. Huovinen <[email-masked]>
Sent: Mon, Nov 25, 2019 6:21 am
Subject: Re: [Fot] Weird Race Weekend Question

 =20
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div style=3D"color:black;font: 10pt arial;">Gents,
<div><br>
</div>

<div>I do have an adjustable cam gear and it was tight. Double roller, cam =
gear, and crank gear all sourced from Jigsaw Racking UK about two years ago=
. Maybe 5 weekends worth of use. I did reuse the chain tensioner that was i=
n the timing chain cover (unknown use- likely stock from the early 70s) and=
 I will admit it is the tensioner for a single chain- it also seems pretty =
worn. I am ordering a double chain tensioner from Moss this a.m. and see ho=
w it differs and will swap them out. Thanks for the responses!</div>

<div><br>
</div>

<div>Mathieu<br>
<br>
<br>

<div style=3D"font-family:helvetica,arial;font-size:10pt;color:black">-----=
Original Message-----<br>
From: Robert Lang &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>
To: fot &lt;[email-masked]&gt;; Mathieu W. Huovinen &lt;maddhatt69@aol.=
com&gt;<br>
Sent: Mon, Nov 25, 2019 6:21 am<br>
Subject: Re: [Fot] Weird Race Weekend Question<br>
<br>

<div id=3D"yiv9982000836">
<div>
<div class=3D"yiv9982000836ydpc7a6ebd8yahoo-style-wrap" style=3D"font-famil=
y:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;">
<div></div>

       =20
<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi - I've seen this before. Mostly on American V8's but th=
e principle is the same... It's almost always a loose chain or worn teeth o=
n the crank gear. If the&nbsp; crank gear has really sharp teeth, the gear =
is probably worn. Note that this is really easy to overlook. And I've had t=
his problem with TR6 engines a couple of times. Especially if you sourced t=
he inexpensive gears. Seems like the hardening of the metal is wrong on som=
e of the parts out there.<br clear=3D"none"></div>

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"></div>

<div dir=3D"ltr">That said, the numbers look like you jumped more than one =
tooth. If the "jump" occurred on the crank end one tooth is about 17 degree=
s (360/21 teeth). Your mention of 150ish for your lobe center sound more li=
ke more than 34 degrees or retard, the progression would be (roughly) 104 -=
 good, 121 - not good, 138 - bad, 155 - really bad, etc. Note that I have s=
een engines run with more than 30 degrees of retard, but they ran very poor=
ly!</div>

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"></div>

<div dir=3D"ltr">I'd double check your crank gear for wear... actually, I'd=
 just replace it along with the tensioner. Note that the current chain tens=
ioners seem to be not as good as the OEM ones as the new ones wear fairly r=
apidly.</div>

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"></div>

<div dir=3D"ltr">On the plus side, at least you didn't bend a valve in the =
process.</div>

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"></div>

<div dir=3D"ltr">C ya,</div>

<div dir=3D"ltr">Bob Lang</div>

<div dir=3D"ltr">339-927-4489<br clear=3D"none"></div>

<div><br clear=3D"none"></div>

       =20
        </div>

<div class=3D"yiv9982000836ydpc2efc1c9yahoo_quoted" id=3D"yiv9982000836ydpc=
2efc1c9yahoo_quoted_5402201527">
           =20
<div style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;fo=
nt-size:13px;color:#26282a;">
               =20
               =20
<div class=3D"yiv9982000836yqt9017960817" id=3D"yiv9982000836yqt73929">
<div>
                    On Sunday, November 24, 2019, 10:38:49 PM EST, Mathieu =
W. Huovinen via Fot &lt;[email-masked]&gt; wrote:
                </div>

               =20
<div><br clear=3D"none"></div>

               =20
<div><br clear=3D"none"></div>

               =20
<div>
<div id=3D"yiv9982000836ydpc2efc1c9yiv0645507289">

<div style=3D"color:black;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;font-stretch=
:normal;font-size:10pt;line-height:normal;font-family:arial;font-size-adjus=
t:none;">Fellas,

<div><br clear=3D"none">
</div>

<div><br clear=3D"none">
</div>

<div><br clear=3D"none">
</div>

<div><br clear=3D"none">
</div>

<div>V/r,</div>

<div><br clear=3D"none">
</div>

</div>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br clear=3D"none"><a rel=3D=
"noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>=
<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"><a rel=3D"noopener noreferrer" shape=
=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://www.fot-racing.com">http://www.f=
ot-racing.com</a><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">Donate: <a rel=3D"no=
opener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://www.team=
.net/donate.html">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a><br clear=3D"none">Arc=
hive: <a rel=3D"noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank" href=
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w.team.net/pipermail/fot">http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot</a><br clear=3D=
"none">Unsubscribe/Manage: <a rel=3D"noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ta=
rget=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/robertlan=
[email-masked]">http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/robertlangtr6@yah=
oo.com</a><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"></div>
</div>

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