Subject: Re: [Fot] Weird Race Weekend Question

From: "Mathieu W. Huovinen via Fot" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 12:54:25 +0000 (UTC)

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Bob and FOT,

I'm beginning to suspect a combination of a weak chain tensioner and an eng=
ine harmonic that may have caused it. Attached a pic of the play in the tim=
ing chain..about 1/2". Is that too much? If so, Ted, I'll be contacting you=
 shortly. Chain is about two years old, maybe 6 weekend s of racing on it. =
New chain tensioner from Moss should be here today and I'm interested in se=
eing the difference in spring arch between the original single chain tensio=
ner and the new TR6 double chain tensioner. Stay tuned!

Mathieu=20
On Monday, November 25, 2019 Robert Lang <[email-masked]> wrote:
 Hi - I've seen this before. Mostly on American V8's but the principle is t=
he same... It's almost always a loose chain or worn teeth on the crank gear=
. If the=C2=A0 crank gear has really sharp teeth, the gear is probably worn=
. Note that this is really easy to overlook. And I've had this problem with=
 TR6 engines a couple of times. Especially if you sourced the inexpensive g=
ears. Seems like the hardening of the metal is wrong on some of the parts o=
ut there.

That said, the numbers look like you jumped more than one tooth. If the "ju=
mp" occurred on the crank end one tooth is about 17 degrees (360/21 teeth).=
 Your mention of 150ish for your lobe center sound more like more than 34 d=
egrees or retard, the progression would be (roughly) 104 - good, 121 - not =
good, 138 - bad, 155 - really bad, etc. Note that I have seen engines run w=
ith more than 30 degrees of retard, but they ran very poorly!
I'd double check your crank gear for wear... actually, I'd just replace it =
along with the tensioner. Note that the current chain tensioners seem to be=
 not as good as the OEM ones as the new ones wear fairly rapidly.
On the plus side, at least you didn't bend a valve in the process.
C ya,Bob Lang339-927-4489

    On Sunday, November 24, 2019, 10:38:49 PM EST, Mathieu W. Huovinen via =
Fot <[email-masked]> wrote: =20
=20
 Fellas,
Sounds like we have the bearing cap strap issue resolved...who is up for an=
other mystery? Has anyone ever has their timing chain skip a tooth??
Final race on Saturday at the Turlkey Bowl this weekend at Summit Point. Tr=
iumph Spitfire..1296 engine. Double roller chain set. Car was running well =
all weekend, was out twice earlier that day. We leave false grid for the to=
 set up for the first lap and I begin to accelerate. All of a sudden the ca=
r just dies and I coast off the track even before turn one. On the side of =
the track I couldn't start the car. In my mind I'm thinking my perrtonix di=
stributor just took a shit. Got towed in and all I'm thinking in pertronix.=
 I swap in a points distributor and nothing. Perhaps my coil? Swap in a new=
 coil. Nothing. Plugs perhaps? Swap in a good set of NGKs. Nothing. Not eve=
n a cough out of the engine. By this time I had run down the battery from t=
rying to start it so much. At this point I was jumping the racecar battery =
from my Tundra truck battery thinking perhaps a weak spark from a shot batt=
ery. Nothing. Was getting plenty of fuel because the plugs were wet. I even=
 pulled and cleaned all the jets out of the Weber 45 DCOE just to make sure=
 I was getting correct fuel. Fuel. Air. Spark. COMPRESSION. This next day (=
this morning) I did a compression test at the track. 80/70/70/70. What the =
heck? Thats not a blown head gasket..the cam HAS to be out of timing. I spe=
nt the majority of the 5 hour drive home trying to figure it out. Got home,=
 car off trailer, straight to work. Pulled radiator, pulley, timing chain c=
over. No damage. Find TDC and put on my degree wheel. Pulled rockers and se=
t dial indicator on #1 intake. Tuned engine over to where cam sheet says wh=
ere #1 centerline is- 104 degrees after TDC while watching dial indicator. =
Went past 104 and dial was still climbing. Made it to to about 150ish degre=
es past TDC til indicator started to drop back down so I know I had went ri=
ght past the peak of the lobe. Pulled chain off carefully and rotated camsh=
aft until I found peak of lobe and moved crank back to 104 and set the chai=
n back on...about one tooth =C2=A0Put rockers back on and checked compressi=
on on #1. 160 PSI. That's as far as I got before my wife came down to yell =
art me. It was already 2130 at this point. More tomorrow as I put it back t=
ogether.=C2=A0
Thoughts? Ideas? Can the timing chain "float" at high revs? Thank-you in ad=
vance for any input!
V/r,
Mathieu Huovinen_______________________________________________
[email-masked]

http://www.fot-racing.com

Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
@yahoo.com

 =20
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<p dir=3D"ltr">Bob and FOT,</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">I'm beginning to suspect a combination of a weak chain tensi=
oner and an engine harmonic that may have caused it. Attached a pic of the =
play in the timing chain..about 1/2". Is that too much? If so, Ted, I'll be=
 contacting you shortly. Chain is about two years old, maybe 6 weekend s of=
 racing on it. New chain tensioner from Moss should be here today and I'm i=
nterested in seeing the difference in spring arch between the original sing=
le chain tensioner and the new TR6 double chain tensioner. Stay tuned!</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Mathieu </p>
</br></br><div class=3D"device_aol_et_org_dt_dd_quote"></div><hr style=3D"b=
order:0;height:1px;color:#999;background-color:#999;width:100%;margin:0 0 9=
px 0;padding:0;"></hr><span style=3D"font-size:14px; color:#999999;">On Mon=
day, November 25, 2019 Robert Lang &#60;<span style=3D"color:#0000A0">rober=
[email-masked]</span>&#62; wrote:</span><br></br><div id=3D"yiv14603063=
54"><html><head></head><div><div class=3D"yiv1460306354ydpc7a6ebd8yahoo-sty=
le-wrap" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;=
font-size:13px;"><div></div>
        <div dir=3D"ltr">Hi - I&#39;ve seen this before. Mostly on American=
 V8&#39;s but the principle is the same... It&#39;s almost always a loose c=
hain or worn teeth on the crank gear. If the=C2=A0 crank gear has really sh=
arp teeth, the gear is probably worn. Note that this is really easy to over=
look. And I&#39;ve had this problem with TR6 engines a couple of times. Esp=
ecially if you sourced the inexpensive gears. Seems like the hardening of t=
he metal is wrong on some of the parts out there.<br clear=3D"none"></div><=
div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">That said, the nu=
mbers look like you jumped more than one tooth. If the &quot;jump&quot; occ=
urred on the crank end one tooth is about 17 degrees (360/21 teeth). Your m=
ention of 150ish for your lobe center sound more like more than 34 degrees =
or retard, the progression would be (roughly) 104 - good, 121 - not good, 1=
38 - bad, 155 - really bad, etc. Note that I have seen engines run with mor=
e than 30 degrees of retard, but they ran very poorly!</div><div dir=3D"ltr=
"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">I&#39;d double check your crank=
 gear for wear... actually, I&#39;d just replace it along with the tensione=
r. Note that the current chain tensioners seem to be not as good as the OEM=
 ones as the new ones wear fairly rapidly.</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=
=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">On the plus side, at least you didn&#39;t =
bend a valve in the process.</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"></div=
><div dir=3D"ltr">C ya,</div><div dir=3D"ltr">Bob Lang</div><div dir=3D"ltr=
">339-927-4489<br clear=3D"none"></div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div>
       =20
        </div><div class=3D"yiv1460306354ydpc2efc1c9yahoo_quoted" id=3D"yiv=
1460306354ydpc2efc1c9yahoo_quoted_5402201527">
            <div style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, s=
ans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#26282a;">
               =20
                <div class=3D"yiv1460306354yqt1765380690" id=3D"yiv14603063=
54yqt19484"><div>
                    On Sunday, November 24, 2019, 10:38:49 PM EST, Mathieu =
W. Huovinen via Fot &lt;[email-masked]&gt; wrote:
                </div>
                <div><br clear=3D"none"></div>
                <div><br clear=3D"none"></div>
                <div><div id=3D"yiv1460306354ydpc2efc1c9yiv0645507289">
<div style=3D"color:black;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;font-stretch=
:normal;font-size:10pt;line-height:normal;font-family:arial;font-size-adjus=
t:none;">Fellas,
<div><br clear=3D"none">
</div>

<div>Sounds like we have the bearing cap strap issue resolved...who is up f=
or another mystery? Has anyone ever has their timing chain skip a tooth??</=
div>

<div><br clear=3D"none">
</div>

<div>Final race on Saturday at the Turlkey Bowl this weekend at Summit Poin=
t. Triumph Spitfire..1296 engine. Double roller chain set. Car was running =
well all weekend, was out twice earlier that day. We leave false grid for t=
he to set up for the first lap and I begin to accelerate. All of a sudden t=
he car just dies and I coast off the track even before turn one. On the sid=
e of the track I couldn&#39;t start the car. In my mind I&#39;m thinking my=
 perrtonix distributor just took a shit. Got towed in and all I&#39;m think=
ing in pertronix. I swap in a points distributor and nothing. Perhaps my co=
il? Swap in a new coil. Nothing. Plugs perhaps? Swap in a good set of NGKs.=
 Nothing. Not even a cough out of the engine. By this time I had run down t=
he battery from trying to start it so much. At this point I was jumping the=
 racecar battery from my Tundra truck battery thinking perhaps a weak spark=
 from a shot battery. Nothing. Was getting plenty of fuel because the plugs=
 were wet. I even pulled and cleaned all the jets out of the Weber 45 DCOE =
just to make sure I was getting correct fuel. Fuel. Air. Spark. COMPRESSION=
. This next day (this morning) I did a compression test at the track. 80/70=
/70/70. What the heck? Thats not a blown head gasket..the cam HAS to be out=
 of timing. I spent the majority of the 5 hour drive home trying to figure =
it out. Got home, car off trailer, straight to work. Pulled radiator, pulle=
y, timing chain cover. No damage. Find TDC and put on my degree wheel. Pull=
ed rockers and set dial indicator on #1 intake. Tuned engine over to where =
cam sheet says where #1 centerline is- 104 degrees after TDC while watching=
 dial indicator. Went past 104 and dial was still climbing. Made it to to a=
bout 150ish degrees past TDC til indicator started to drop back down so I k=
now I had went right past the peak of the lobe. Pulled chain off carefully =
and rotated camshaft until I found peak of lobe and moved crank back to 104=
 and set the chain back on...about one tooth =C2=A0Put rockers back on and =
checked compression on #1. 160 PSI. That&#39;s as far as I got before my wi=
fe came down to yell art me. It was already 2130 at this point. More tomorr=
ow as I put it back together.=C2=A0</div>

<div><br clear=3D"none">
</div>

<div>Thoughts? Ideas? Can the timing chain &quot;float&quot; at high revs? =
Thank-you in advance for any input!</div>

<div><br clear=3D"none">
</div>

<div>V/r,</div>

<div><br clear=3D"none">
</div>

<div>Mathieu Huovinen</div>
</div></div>_______________________________________________<br clear=3D"non=
e"><a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:[email-masked]"=
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><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"><a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" t=
arget=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://www.fot-racing.com">http://www.fot-racing.c=
om</a><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">Donate: <a rel=3D"nofollow" sha=
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_______________________________________________
[email-masked]

http://www.fot-racing.com

Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot

--===============2381329588163207634==--

---

From: Robert Lang via Fot <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 13:26:14 +0000 (UTC)

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 Hi - They usually "jump" a tooth on overrun, or at least that's my experie=
nce. Or it can happen on a backfire... I had a Pontiac with a V8 back in th=
e day. The exhaust pipe broke before the muffler, so it had a really kool r=
umble sound. I used to take it out at night and drive exit ramps at "stupid=
 speed" and then downshift the auto trans one gear to get the koolest sound=
... not to mention "power-off oversteer".=C2=A0 Drift City. After one of th=
ese excursions, the engine became very hard to start. I took the car off th=
e road and sold it to a friend. About a month later, he called me up all pi=
ssed off and wanting his $600 back because he had to fix the timing chain.
Never sold a car to a friend or associate ever again.
;-)
But in addition to the new chain and tensioner, take a close look at that c=
rank gear and make sure the "troughs" don't have a burr or the points aren'=
t sharp, either would indicate wear and you don't want that.
I don't recall a spec for play in the chain, but you want "as little as pos=
sible". If you can get the cam gear onto the cam easily with the chain thre=
aded, that's too loose.

C ya,Bob Lang

    On Tuesday, November 26, 2019, 7:54:29 AM EST, Mathieu W. Huovinen <mad=
[email-masked]> wrote: =20
=20
=20
Bob and FOT,

Mathieu=20

   =20
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<html><head></head><body><div class=3D"ydp611829c6yahoo-style-wrap" style=
=3D"font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 1=
3px;"><div></div>
        <div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">Hi - They usually "jump" a t=
ooth on overrun, or at least that's my experience. Or it can happen on a ba=
ckfire... I had a Pontiac with a V8 back in the day. The exhaust pipe broke=
 before the muffler, so it had a really kool rumble sound. I used to take i=
t out at night and drive exit ramps at "stupid speed" and then downshift th=
e auto trans one gear to get the koolest sound... not to mention "power-off=
 oversteer".&nbsp; Drift City. After one of these excursions, the engine be=
came very hard to start. I took the car off the road and sold it to a frien=
d. About a month later, he called me up all pissed off and wanting his $600=
 back because he had to fix the timing chain.</div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-se=
tdir=3D"false"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">Never sold =
a car to a friend or associate ever again.</div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdi=
r=3D"false"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">;-)</div><div =
dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D=
"false">But in addition to the new chain and tensioner, take a close look a=
t that crank gear and make sure the "troughs" don't have a burr or the poin=
ts aren't sharp, either would indicate wear and you don't want that.</div><=
div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdi=
r=3D"false">I don't recall a spec for play in the chain, but you want "as l=
ittle as possible". If you can get the cam gear onto the cam easily with th=
e chain threaded, that's too loose.<br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=
=3D"false"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">C ya,</div><div=
 dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">Bob Lang<br></div><div><br></div>
       =20
        </div><div id=3D"ydpae93fd03yahoo_quoted_5731993783" class=3D"ydpae=
93fd03yahoo_quoted">
            <div style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, s=
ans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#26282a;">
               =20
                <div>
                    On Tuesday, November 26, 2019, 7:54:29 AM EST, Mathieu =
W. Huovinen &lt;[email-masked]&gt; wrote:
                </div>
                <div><br></div>
                <div><br></div>
                <div><div id=3D"ydpae93fd03yiv5344134333"><div><p dir=3D"lt=
r">Bob and FOT,</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">I'm beginning to suspect a combination of a weak chain tensi=
oner and an engine harmonic that may have caused it. Attached a pic of the =
play in the timing chain..about 1/2". Is that too much? If so, Ted, I'll be=
 contacting you shortly. Chain is about two years old, maybe 6 weekend s of=
 racing on it. New chain tensioner from Moss should be here today and I'm i=
nterested in seeing the difference in spring arch between the original sing=
le chain tensioner and the new TR6 double chain tensioner. Stay tuned!</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Mathieu </p>
<div class=3D"ydpae93fd03yiv5344134333device_aol_et_org_dt_dd_quote"></div>=
<hr style=3D"border-color: currentcolor; border-style: none; border-width: =
0px; min-height: 1px; color: rgb(153, 153, 153); background-color: rgb(153,=
 153, 153); width: 100%; margin: 0px 0px 9px; padding: 0px;"><span style=3D=
"font-size:14px;color:#999999;">On Monday, November 25, 2019 Robert Lang &l=
t;<span style=3D"color:#0000A0;">[email-masked]</span>&gt; wrote:<=
/span><br clear=3D"none"><div id=3D"ydpae93fd03yiv5344134333"></div></div><=
div class=3D"ydpae93fd03yiv5344134333yqt7004682114" id=3D"ydpae93fd03yiv534=
4134333yqt58219"><div><div><div class=3D"ydpae93fd03yiv5344134333ydpc7a6ebd=
8yahoo-style-wrap" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, s=
ans-serif;font-size:13px;"><div></div>
        <div dir=3D"ltr">Hi - I've seen this before. Mostly on American V8'=
s but the principle is the same... It's almost always a loose chain or worn=
 teeth on the crank gear. If the&nbsp; crank gear has really sharp teeth, t=
he gear is probably worn. Note that this is really easy to overlook. And I'=
ve had this problem with TR6 engines a couple of times. Especially if you s=
ourced the inexpensive gears. Seems like the hardening of the metal is wron=
g on some of the parts out there.<br clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">=
<br clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">That said, the numbers look like =
you jumped more than one tooth. If the "jump" occurred on the crank end one=
 tooth is about 17 degrees (360/21 teeth). Your mention of 150ish for your =
lobe center sound more like more than 34 degrees or retard, the progression=
 would be (roughly) 104 - good, 121 - not good, 138 - bad, 155 - really bad=
, etc. Note that I have seen engines run with more than 30 degrees of retar=
d, but they ran very poorly!</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"></div=
><div dir=3D"ltr">I'd double check your crank gear for wear... actually, I'=
d just replace it along with the tensioner. Note that the current chain ten=
sioners seem to be not as good as the OEM ones as the new ones wear fairly =
rapidly.</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">On=
 the plus side, at least you didn't bend a valve in the process.</div><div =
dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">C ya,</div><div dir=
=3D"ltr">Bob Lang</div><div dir=3D"ltr">339-927-4489<br clear=3D"none"></di=
v><div><br clear=3D"none"></div>
       =20
        </div><div class=3D"ydpae93fd03yiv5344134333ydpc2efc1c9yahoo_quoted=
" id=3D"ydpae93fd03yiv5344134333ydpc2efc1c9yahoo_quoted_5402201527">
            <div style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, s=
ans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#26282a;">
               =20
                <div class=3D"ydpae93fd03yiv5344134333yqt1765380690" id=3D"=
ydpae93fd03yiv5344134333yqt19484"><div>
                    On Sunday, November 24, 2019, 10:38:49 PM EST, Mathieu =
W. Huovinen via Fot &lt;[email-masked]&gt; wrote:
                </div>
                <div><br clear=3D"none"></div>
                <div><br clear=3D"none"></div>
                <div><div id=3D"ydpae93fd03yiv5344134333ydpc2efc1c9yiv06455=
07289">
<div style=3D"color:black;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;font-stretch=
:normal;font-size:10pt;line-height:normal;font-family:arial;font-size-adjus=
t:none;">Fellas,
<div><br clear=3D"none">
</div>

<div><br clear=3D"none">
</div>

<div>Final race on Saturday at the Turlkey Bowl this weekend at Summit Poin=
t. Triumph Spitfire..1296 engine. Double roller chain set. Car was running =
well all weekend, was out twice earlier that day. We leave false grid for t=
he to set up for the first lap and I begin to accelerate. All of a sudden t=
he car just dies and I coast off the track even before turn one. On the sid=
e of the track I couldn't start the car. In my mind I'm thinking my perrton=
ix distributor just took a shit. Got towed in and all I'm thinking in pertr=
onix. I swap in a points distributor and nothing. Perhaps my coil? Swap in =
a new coil. Nothing. Plugs perhaps? Swap in a good set of NGKs. Nothing. No=
t even a cough out of the engine. By this time I had run down the battery f=
rom trying to start it so much. At this point I was jumping the racecar bat=
tery from my Tundra truck battery thinking perhaps a weak spark from a shot=
 battery. Nothing. Was getting plenty of fuel because the plugs were wet. I=
 even pulled and cleaned all the jets out of the Weber 45 DCOE just to make=
 sure I was getting correct fuel. Fuel. Air. Spark. COMPRESSION. This next =
day (this morning) I did a compression test at the track. 80/70/70/70. What=
 the heck? Thats not a blown head gasket..the cam HAS to be out of timing. =
I spent the majority of the 5 hour drive home trying to figure it out. Got =
home, car off trailer, straight to work. Pulled radiator, pulley, timing ch=
ain cover. No damage. Find TDC and put on my degree wheel. Pulled rockers a=
nd set dial indicator on #1 intake. Tuned engine over to where cam sheet sa=
ys where #1 centerline is- 104 degrees after TDC while watching dial indica=
tor. Went past 104 and dial was still climbing. Made it to to about 150ish =
degrees past TDC til indicator started to drop back down so I know I had we=
nt right past the peak of the lobe. Pulled chain off carefully and rotated =
camshaft until I found peak of lobe and moved crank back to 104 and set the=
 chain back on...about one tooth &nbsp;Put rockers back on and checked comp=
ression on #1. 160 PSI. That's as far as I got before my wife came down to =
yell art me. It was already 2130 at this point. More tomorrow as I put it b=
ack together.&nbsp;</div>

<div><br clear=3D"none">
</div>

<div>Thoughts? Ideas? Can the timing chain "float" at high revs? Thank-you =
in advance for any input!</div>

<div><br clear=3D"none">
</div>

<div>V/r,</div>

<div><br clear=3D"none">
</div>

<div>Mathieu Huovinen</div>
</div></div>_______________________________________________<br clear=3D"non=
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From: Rick Parent via Fot <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 14:28:38 +0000 (UTC)

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 That's about normal, why in the sam hell are you using that heavy ass doub=
le chain set up?? Come on man get it together.

    On Tuesday, November 26, 2019, 08:29:26 AM EST, Robert Lang via Fot <fo=
[email-masked]> wrote: =20
=20
  Hi - They usually "jump" a tooth on overrun, or at least that's my experi=
ence. Or it can happen on a backfire... I had a Pontiac with a V8 back in t=
he day. The exhaust pipe broke before the muffler, so it had a really kool =
rumble sound. I used to take it out at night and drive exit ramps at "stupi=
d speed" and then downshift the auto trans one gear to get the koolest soun=
d... not to mention "power-off oversteer".=C2=A0 Drift City. After one of t=
hese excursions, the engine became very hard to start. I took the car off t=
he road and sold it to a friend. About a month later, he called me up all p=
issed off and wanting his $600 back because he had to fix the timing chain.
Never sold a car to a friend or associate ever again.
;-)
But in addition to the new chain and tensioner, take a close look at that c=
rank gear and make sure the "troughs" don't have a burr or the points aren'=
t sharp, either would indicate wear and you don't want that.
I don't recall a spec for play in the chain, but you want "as little as pos=
sible". If you can get the cam gear onto the cam easily with the chain thre=
aded, that's too loose.

C ya,Bob Lang

Mathieu=20

tt.net

 =20
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<html><head></head><body><div class=3D"ydpb3bd1df7yahoo-style-wrap" style=
=3D"font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:16px=
;"><div></div>
        <div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">That's about normal, why in =
the sam hell are you using that heavy ass double chain set up?? Come on man=
 get it together.</div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false"><br></div><di=
v><br></div>
       =20
        </div><div id=3D"yahoo_quoted_5277086885" class=3D"yahoo_quoted">
            <div style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, s=
ans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#26282a;">
               =20
                <div>
                    On Tuesday, November 26, 2019, 08:29:26 AM EST, Robert =
Lang via Fot &lt;[email-masked]&gt; wrote:
                </div>
                <div><br></div>
                <div><br></div>
                <div><div id=3D"yiv7380571703"><div><div class=3D"yiv738057=
1703ydp611829c6yahoo-style-wrap" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helve=
tica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;"><div></div>
        <div dir=3D"ltr">Hi - They usually "jump" a tooth on overrun, or at=
 least that's my experience. Or it can happen on a backfire... I had a Pont=
iac with a V8 back in the day. The exhaust pipe broke before the muffler, s=
o it had a really kool rumble sound. I used to take it out at night and dri=
ve exit ramps at "stupid speed" and then downshift the auto trans one gear =
to get the koolest sound... not to mention "power-off oversteer".&nbsp; Dri=
ft City. After one of these excursions, the engine became very hard to star=
t. I took the car off the road and sold it to a friend. About a month later=
, he called me up all pissed off and wanting his $600 back because he had t=
o fix the timing chain.</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div=
 dir=3D"ltr">Never sold a car to a friend or associate ever again.</div><di=
v dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">;-)</div><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">But in addition to the n=
ew chain and tensioner, take a close look at that crank gear and make sure =
the "troughs" don't have a burr or the points aren't sharp, either would in=
dicate wear and you don't want that.</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"non=
e"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">I don't recall a spec for play in the chain, but =
you want "as little as possible". If you can get the cam gear onto the cam =
easily with the chain threaded, that's too loose.<br clear=3D"none"></div><=
div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">C ya,</div><div d=
ir=3D"ltr">Bob Lang<br clear=3D"none"></div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div>
       =20
        </div><div class=3D"yiv7380571703yqt6897922118" id=3D"yiv7380571703=
yqt81517"><div class=3D"yiv7380571703ydpae93fd03yahoo_quoted" id=3D"yiv7380=
571703ydpae93fd03yahoo_quoted_5731993783">
            <div style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, s=
ans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#26282a;">
               =20
                <div>
                    On Tuesday, November 26, 2019, 7:54:29 AM EST, Mathieu =
W. Huovinen &lt;[email-masked]&gt; wrote:
                </div>
                <div><br clear=3D"none"></div>
                <div><br clear=3D"none"></div>
                <div><div id=3D"yiv7380571703ydpae93fd03yiv5344134333"><div=
<p dir=3D"ltr">I'm beginning to suspect a combination of a weak chain tensi=
oner and an engine harmonic that may have caused it. Attached a pic of the =
play in the timing chain..about 1/2". Is that too much? If so, Ted, I'll be=
 contacting you shortly. Chain is about two years old, maybe 6 weekend s of=
 racing on it. New chain tensioner from Moss should be here today and I'm i=
nterested in seeing the difference in spring arch between the original sing=
le chain tensioner and the new TR6 double chain tensioner. Stay tuned!</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Mathieu </p>
<div class=3D"yiv7380571703ydpae93fd03yiv5344134333device_aol_et_org_dt_dd_=
quote"></div><hr style=3D"border-color:currentcolor;border-style:none;borde=
r-width:0px;min-height:1px;color:rgb(153, 153, 153);background-color:rgb(15=
3, 153, 153);width:100%;margin:0px 0px 9px;padding:0px;"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:14px;color:#999999;">On Monday, November 25, 2019 Robert Lang &lt;<s=
pan style=3D"color:#0000A0;">[email-masked]</span>&gt; wrote:</spa=
n><br clear=3D"none"><div id=3D"yiv7380571703ydpae93fd03yiv5344134333"></di=
v></div><div class=3D"yiv7380571703ydpae93fd03yiv5344134333yqt7004682114" i=
d=3D"yiv7380571703ydpae93fd03yiv5344134333yqt58219"><div><div><div class=3D=
"yiv7380571703ydpae93fd03yiv5344134333ydpc7a6ebd8yahoo-style-wrap" style=3D=
"font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;">=
<div></div>
        <div dir=3D"ltr">Hi - I've seen this before. Mostly on American V8'=
s but the principle is the same... It's almost always a loose chain or worn=
 teeth on the crank gear. If the&nbsp; crank gear has really sharp teeth, t=
he gear is probably worn. Note that this is really easy to overlook. And I'=
ve had this problem with TR6 engines a couple of times. Especially if you s=
ourced the inexpensive gears. Seems like the hardening of the metal is wron=
g on some of the parts out there.<br clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">=
<br clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">That said, the numbers look like =
you jumped more than one tooth. If the "jump" occurred on the crank end one=
 tooth is about 17 degrees (360/21 teeth). Your mention of 150ish for your =
lobe center sound more like more than 34 degrees or retard, the progression=
 would be (roughly) 104 - good, 121 - not good, 138 - bad, 155 - really bad=
, etc. Note that I have seen engines run with more than 30 degrees of retar=
d, but they ran very poorly!</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"></div=
d just replace it along with the tensioner. Note that the current chain ten=
sioners seem to be not as good as the OEM ones as the new ones wear fairly =
rapidly.</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">On=
 the plus side, at least you didn't bend a valve in the process.</div><div =
dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">C ya,</div><div dir=
=3D"ltr">Bob Lang</div><div dir=3D"ltr">339-927-4489<br clear=3D"none"></di=
v><div><br clear=3D"none"></div>
       =20
        </div><div class=3D"yiv7380571703ydpae93fd03yiv5344134333ydpc2efc1c=
9yahoo_quoted" id=3D"yiv7380571703ydpae93fd03yiv5344134333ydpc2efc1c9yahoo_=
quoted_5402201527">
            <div style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, s=
ans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#26282a;">
               =20
                <div class=3D"yiv7380571703ydpae93fd03yiv5344134333yqt17653=
80690" id=3D"yiv7380571703ydpae93fd03yiv5344134333yqt19484"><div>
                    On Sunday, November 24, 2019, 10:38:49 PM EST, Mathieu =
W. Huovinen via Fot &lt;[email-masked]&gt; wrote:
                </div>
                <div><br clear=3D"none"></div>
                <div><br clear=3D"none"></div>
                <div><div id=3D"yiv7380571703ydpae93fd03yiv5344134333ydpc2e=
fc1c9yiv0645507289">
<div style=3D"color:black;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;font-stretch=
:normal;font-size:10pt;line-height:normal;font-family:arial;font-size-adjus=
t:none;">Fellas,
<div><br clear=3D"none">
</div>

<div><br clear=3D"none">
</div>

<div><br clear=3D"none">
</div>

<div><br clear=3D"none">
</div>

<div>V/r,</div>

<div><br clear=3D"none">
</div>

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