Subject: [6pack] Clutch Set Recommendations

From: Robert Perry <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2021 02:42:58 +0000

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<p>Bob Fabie,</p>
<p></p>
<p>I noticed that after replacing the red plastic clutch slave cylinder =
hose.  The hard pedal clutch became a "Toyota" clutch pedal.  This was on =
my third or fourth/ fith master and slave cylinder rebuild or replacement =
over 38 years.  Previously I replaced the clutch shaft, clutch shaft =
bushings, pilot bearing, re-drilled the clutch fork for bolt replacement =
due to clutch fork movement on shaft (pin failure), Replaced the clutch, =
pressure plate, throughout bearing twice.  Once due to fork pin failure =
(slow learner at the time because of no internet during that time period)! =
 I surmise  that over the years the red plastic clutch slave hose must =
expand restriting the fluid flow or the replacement has a larger inside =
diameter to allow more fluid flow.  I should have replaced the red clutch =
slave cylinder hose years ago in my opinion.  I  at the purchased the red =
slave cylinder hose at TRF at the time with the blue dot clutch ( standard =
clutch and throwout bearing).  FWIW</p>
<p></p>
<p>Regards,</p>
<p></p>
<p>Robert Perry</p>

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From: John Cyganowski <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 17:21:21 +0000 (UTC)

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"The=C2=A0 six cylinder car's clutch is not such a happy story and is the A=
chilles Heel of the 6 cylinder cars."=C2=A0 So says Roger Williams in his b=
ook; How to Restore Triumph TR5/250 & TR6.
I am not going to reproduce that section of the book here, but I will try t=
o de-mystify this area of the car.
The issues center around:
a.) mechanical tolerances/design deficiency.b.) supersessionc.) poor docume=
ntation
The clutch design does not have much allowance for wear & tear. Originally =
a 0.75" Master Cylinder was fitted and this worked well but their were comp=
laints of "heavy clutch" with this system. During the 1970 model year, the =
master cylinder was changed to a 0.70" unit. This did soften up the clutch =
pressure, but now wear and tear deficiencies of the mechanical parts became=
 significant issues causing drag and partial clutch disengagement. Bushing =
wear, clutch fork pin wear , cylinder leaks etc. will cause poor performanc=
e.=C2=A0=C2=A0
The car parts biz is quite dynamic, and companies get sold, go out of busin=
ess, or simply manage the life cycle of their products. Part of this is tha=
t if they have a slow or small selling item, they look around to see if the=
y have another part with greater sales that could be use for the slow selli=
ng application and they discontinue the part for the slow selling applicati=
on.=C2=A0 The original clutch & driven plate were Laycock units and worked =
quite well.=C2=A0 But Laycock sold their clutch business to LUK. LUK stoppe=
d making the TR6 Clutch some time ago.=C2=A0 Enter Borg & Beck.=C2=A0 They =
offered a clutch for the TR6 that I think became a standard.=C2=A0 It worke=
d quite well. But in time, they saw slow sales for this model and it disapp=
eared from the inventory. B&B used colored paint spots to mark their differ=
ent pressure plates - I believe there was a "Yellow-spot" a "Green-Spot" an=
d a "Blue-spot".=C2=A0 I don't recall which one was used on the TR6, but it=
 was discontinued and superceded with one of the other clutches. Should be =
ok right?=C2=A0 It fits right?=C2=A0 No problem then!=C2=A0 Wrong! Wrong be=
cause one of these clutches was designed for a much heavier vehicle (Van). =
You want a good tight clutch right?=C2=A0 Yes, but excessive spring pressur=
e is very hard on the thrust washers when the clutch is disengaged.=C2=A0 N=
ot a good situation. Also it increases pressure on the clutch fork pin and =
can break it. Anyone who has ever had a broken clutch fork pin knows what a=
 PITA it is. Then B&B was sold to Delphi and that product line was rational=
ized with yet another clutch that had "cranked" spring fingers. Another gen=
eric parts vendor Quinton Hazel also has such a clutch.=C2=A0 I have heard =
mixed reports on this type, with some folks reporting squealing and other r=
eporting good operation.=C2=A0 I can only tell you that their original Layc=
ock design was straight fingered. Some of the squealing reports seem to be =
linked with larger throw-out bearings when used with the cranked fingered c=
lutches.=C2=A0 Now some info about the throw-out bearings.
The original configuration was an RHP bearing on a bronze carrier that was =
pinned. A while back reports came out about premature failures with the RHP=
 bearings. Either a bad batch of bearing was made or quality had suffered. =
It is hard to know what happened, because once a part like this gets a "bla=
ck-eye", people move away from them because they are such a pain to change,=
 nobody wants to take a chance on it again.=C2=A0 I am not saying that RHP =
bearings are good or bad, simply relating what I have heard.=C2=A0 Anecdote=
 - This became an issue for me because I was a "clutch rider" (head hung in=
 shame).=C2=A0 I would sit there at a light with my left foot on the clutch=
 and my foot on the brake. After=C2=A0 a while I began to hear my bearing (=
an RHP as it turns out) whirring away.=C2=A0 So when I pulled the tranny fo=
r another project, I decided that I should get a new bearing and it would n=
ot be an RHP.=C2=A0 Now was it a crappy bearing or a crappy driver that was=
 the issue?=C2=A0 These things are hard to tease apart.=C2=A0 There are now=
 a number of brands out there, but I will mention 3.=C2=A0 The Koyo bearing=
 was originally designed for a Landcruiser. It was larger than the other be=
arings.=C2=A0 Some folks love'em and some folks have reporting squealing.=
=C2=A0 It is true that being a larger bearing it is going to take more forc=
e to overcome inertia and get it spinning. There is another bearing that co=
mes highly recommended called KYK. Never used one but would because of this=
 recommendation from a source that I trust. Gunst has become a dirty name i=
n some quarters of the Triumph community.=C2=A0 It was hyped as a godsend, =
and then a few problems were mentioned (hard to track down the variables).=
=C2=A0 I will say that the Gust bearings are different in that they are mea=
nt to contact the clutch at all times.=C2=A0 I have put one in my car.=C2=
=A0 I don't know what to expect but I hope for the best.=C2=A0 Finally carr=
iers.=C2=A0 Bronze carriers have been mentioned as preferred. It makes sens=
e as they are useful in circumstances when you have surface movements in th=
at bronze seems to resist abrasion and not gall. Mating the carrier to the =
bearing is a precision operation.=C2=A0 Most of us should either buy a bear=
ing that is mated to the carrier or have a good machine shop do it for you.=
 "Pinned" refers to a hardened pin that prevents the bearing carrier from r=
otating on the clutch fork pin. This makes sense to me as we want to gearin=
g to rotate and not the carrier.=C2=A0 I know folks who have had squealing =
issue without a pin. Again drilling and installing an anti-rotation pin is =
best left to a shop for most of us.
"Magic Clutch" Kit - Hype or for real?=C2=A0 A word about Charles Runyon. C=
harles Runyon, the former proprietor of the Roadster Factory has recently p=
assed away.=C2=A0 I won't speak ill of the dead except to acknowledge that =
some folks in our community may have got hurt over some of his business pra=
ctices late in his life.=C2=A0 I will say that Charles and his company have=
 been for a very long time, real friends and proponents of our community.=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Charles had noticed that there seemed to be a lot of clutch is=
sues with our cars and some of these issues no doubt blew back on him, when=
 new parts he sold didn't fix the issues (remember these problems are hard =
to tease apart). Being very well connected in the community he was able to =
pull opinions from some of the most knowledgeable folks in our hobby and co=
me of with a serious attempt at rectifying these clutch issues. Charles rea=
lized that the reliability of the clutch mechanics was as important as the =
clutch components themselves and pulled together a kit of parts that would =
significantly improve the probability of successful clutch repair.=C2=A0 So=
 I think it is for real and not hype, that when you do a clutch job you sho=
uld replace everything. It isn't that much more money and it worth the extr=
a effort. He also discovered the Sachs clutch.=C2=A0 This clutch most resem=
bles the original Laycock clutch design. This is the clutch I have used in =
my car.=C2=A0 I have gone a bit further and added a feature that allows me=
=C2=A0 to lubricate my clutch shaft with a grease gun. If you are intereste=
d I can tell about this in another post.=C2=A0
Despite all of these there were still more people than there should have be=
en that were reporting clutch issues. A few years back a couple of sleuths =
uncovered the "dowel" bolts. In the parts lists, there are 2 special bolts =
among the many bolts that mate engine the bell housing.=C2=A0 These are ref=
erred to as "dowel bolts". Williams in his book obliquely mentions "locatin=
g bolts".=C2=A0 If the bell housing is misaligned to the engine even a litt=
le bit, poor clutch performance results. These bolts have larger chanks and=
 are located at 2 and 8 O'clock and align the transmission to the engine. I=
f you lose these bolts or don't put them in first than you can have clutch =
issues no matter what you do.=C2=A0 Many folks have installed hardened stee=
l dowels in place of these bolts.=C2=A0=C2=A0
Hopefully, this summary will help you with your clutch replacement.=C2=A0 P=
lease excuse the length of it.=C2=A0 Many folks referred to different aspec=
ts of this story, but I thought it would be good to put it all in one place=
.
Regards-John Cyg70 DamsonCC52927LO
------=_Part_1815149_117691770.1624296081017
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head></head><body><div class=3D"ydp4ce06f07yahoo-style-wrap" style=
=3D"font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:16px=
;"><div id=3D"ydp4ce06f07yiv3247099730"><div><div class=3D"ydp4ce06f07yiv32=
47099730yahoo-style-wrap" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, A=
rial, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><div dir=3D"ltr">"The&nbsp; six cylinder =
car's clutch is not such a happy story and is the Achilles Heel of the 6 cy=
linder cars."&nbsp; So says Roger Williams in his book; <u>How to Restore T=
riumph TR5/250 &amp; TR6</u>.</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"l=
tr">I am not going to reproduce that section of the book here, but I will t=
ry to de-mystify this area of the car.</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div=
 dir=3D"ltr">The issues center around:</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div=
 dir=3D"ltr">a.) mechanical tolerances/design deficiency.</div><div dir=3D"=
ltr">b.) supersession</div><div dir=3D"ltr">c.) poor documentation</div><di=
v dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">The clutch design does not have mu=
ch allowance for wear &amp; tear. Originally a 0.75" Master Cylinder was fi=
tted and this worked well but their were complaints of "heavy clutch" with =
this system. During the 1970 model year, the master cylinder was changed to=
 a 0.70" unit. This did soften up the clutch pressure, but now wear and tea=
r deficiencies of the mechanical parts became significant issues causing dr=
ag and partial clutch disengagement. Bushing wear, clutch fork pin wear , c=
ylinder leaks etc. will cause poor performance.&nbsp;&nbsp;</div><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">The car parts biz is quite dynamic, and=
 companies get sold, go out of business, or simply manage the life cycle of=
 their products. Part of this is that if they have a slow or small selling =
item, they look around to see if they have another part with greater sales =
that could be use for the slow selling application and they discontinue the=
 part for the slow selling application.&nbsp; The original clutch &amp; dri=
ven plate were Laycock units and worked quite well.&nbsp; But Laycock sold =
their clutch business to LUK. LUK stopped making the TR6 Clutch some time a=
go.&nbsp; Enter Borg &amp; Beck.&nbsp; They offered a clutch for the TR6 th=
at I think became a standard.&nbsp; It worked quite well. But in time, they=
 saw slow sales for this model and it disappeared from the inventory. B&amp=
;B used colored paint spots to mark their different pressure plates - I bel=
ieve there was a "Yellow-spot" a "Green-Spot" and a "Blue-spot".&nbsp; I do=
n't recall which one was used on the TR6, but it was discontinued and super=
ceded with one of the other clutches. Should be ok right?&nbsp; It fits rig=
ht?&nbsp; No problem then!&nbsp; Wrong! Wrong because one of these clutches=
 was designed for a much heavier vehicle (Van). You want a good tight clutc=
h right?&nbsp; Yes, but excessive spring pressure is very hard on the thrus=
t washers when the clutch is disengaged.&nbsp; Not a good situation. Also i=
t increases pressure on the clutch fork pin and can break it. Anyone who ha=
s ever had a broken clutch fork pin knows what a PITA it is. Then B&amp;B w=
as sold to Delphi and that product line was rationalized with yet another c=
lutch that had "cranked" spring fingers. Another generic parts vendor Quint=
on Hazel also has such a clutch.&nbsp; I have heard mixed reports on this t=
ype, with some folks reporting squealing and other reporting good operation=
.&nbsp; I can only tell you that their original Laycock design was straight=
 fingered. Some of the squealing reports seem to be linked with larger thro=
w-out bearings when used with the cranked fingered clutches.&nbsp; Now some=
 info about the throw-out bearings.</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div di=
r=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">The original configuration was an RHP beari=
ng on a bronze carrier that was pinned. A while back reports came out about=
 premature failures with the RHP bearings. Either a bad batch of bearing wa=
s made or quality had suffered. It is hard to know what happened, because o=
nce a part like this gets a "black-eye", people move away from them because=
 they are such a pain to change, nobody wants to take a chance on it again.=
&nbsp; I am not saying that RHP bearings are good or bad, simply relating w=
hat I have heard.&nbsp; Anecdote - This became an issue for me because I wa=
s a "clutch rider" (head hung in shame).&nbsp; I would sit there at a light=
 with my left foot on the clutch and my foot on the brake. After&nbsp; a wh=
ile I began to hear my bearing (an RHP as it turns out) whirring away.&nbsp=
; So when I pulled the tranny for another project, I decided that I should =
get a new bearing and it would not be an RHP.&nbsp; Now was it a crappy bea=
ring or a crappy driver that was the issue?&nbsp; These things are hard to =
tease apart.&nbsp; There are now a number of brands out there, but I will m=
ention 3.&nbsp; The Koyo bearing was originally designed for a Landcruiser.=
 It was larger than the other bearings.&nbsp; Some folks love'em and some f=
olks have reporting squealing.&nbsp; It is true that being a larger bearing=
 it is going to take more force to overcome inertia and get it spinning. Th=
ere is another bearing that comes highly recommended called KYK. Never used=
 one but would because of this recommendation from a source that I trust. G=
unst has become a dirty name in some quarters of the Triumph community.&nbs=
p; It was hyped as a godsend, and then a few problems were mentioned (hard =
to track down the variables).&nbsp; I will say that the Gust bearings are d=
ifferent in that they are meant to contact the clutch at all times.&nbsp; I=
 have put one in my car.&nbsp; I don't know what to expect but I hope for t=
he best.&nbsp; Finally carriers.&nbsp; Bronze carriers have been mentioned =
as preferred. It makes sense as they are useful in circumstances when you h=
ave surface movements in that bronze seems to resist abrasion and not gall.=
 Mating the carrier to the bearing is a precision operation.&nbsp; Most of =
us should either buy a bearing that is mated to the carrier or have a good =
machine shop do it for you. "Pinned" refers to a hardened pin that prevents=
 the bearing carrier from rotating on the clutch fork pin. This makes sense=
 to me as we want to gearing to rotate and not the carrier.&nbsp; I know fo=
lks who have had squealing issue without a pin. Again drilling and installi=
ng an anti-rotation pin is best left to a shop for most of us.</div><div di=
r=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"f=
alse">"Magic Clutch" Kit - Hype or for real?&nbsp; A word about Charles Run=
yon. Charles Runyon, the former proprietor of the Roadster Factory has rece=
ntly passed away.&nbsp; I won't speak ill of the dead except to acknowledge=
 that some folks in our community may have got hurt over some of his busine=
ss practices late in his life.&nbsp; I will say that Charles and his compan=
y have been for a very long time, real friends and proponents of our commun=
ity.&nbsp; &nbsp;Charles had noticed that there seemed to be a lot of clutc=
h issues with our cars and some of these issues no doubt blew back on him, =
when new parts he sold didn't fix the issues (remember these problems are h=
ard to tease apart). Being very well connected in the community he was able=
 to pull opinions from some of the most knowledgeable folks in our hobby an=
d come of with a serious attempt at rectifying these clutch issues. Charles=
 realized that the reliability of the clutch mechanics was as important as =
the clutch components themselves and pulled together a kit of parts that wo=
uld significantly improve the probability of successful clutch repair.&nbsp=
; So I think it is for real and not hype, that when you do a clutch job you=
 should replace everything. It isn't that much more money and it worth the =
extra effort. He also discovered the Sachs clutch.&nbsp; This clutch most r=
esembles the original Laycock clutch design. This is the clutch I have used=
 in my car.&nbsp; I have gone a bit further and added a feature that allows=
 me&nbsp; to lubricate my clutch shaft with a grease gun. If you are intere=
sted I can tell about this in another post.&nbsp;</div><div dir=3D"ltr" dat=
a-setdir=3D"false"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">Despite=
 all of these there were still more people than there should have been that=
 were reporting clutch issues. A few years back a couple of sleuths uncover=
ed the "dowel" bolts. In the parts lists, there are 2 special bolts among t=
he many bolts that mate engine the bell housing.&nbsp; These are referred t=
o as "dowel bolts". Williams in his book obliquely mentions "locating bolts=
".&nbsp; If the bell housing is misaligned to the engine even a little bit,=
 poor clutch performance results. These bolts have larger chanks and are lo=
cated at 2 and 8 O'clock and align the transmission to the engine. If you l=
ose these bolts or don't put them in first than you can have clutch issues =
no matter what you do.&nbsp; Many folks have installed hardened steel dowel=
s in place of these bolts.&nbsp;&nbsp;</div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D=
"false"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">Hopefully, this su=
mmary will help you with your clutch replacement.&nbsp; Please excuse the l=
ength of it.&nbsp; Many folks referred to different aspects of this story, =
but I thought it would be good to put it all in one place.</div><div dir=3D=
"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false=
">Regards-</div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">John Cyg</div><div d=
ir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">70 Damson</div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdi=
r=3D"false">CC52927LO</div></div></div></div></div></body></html>
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[email-masked]

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From: Robert Rochlin <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 15:23:19 -0400

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--Apple-Mail=_4B74739D-6C65-4351-B1A9-5CC1C6F59238
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	charset=utf-8

John,
	Wow, that was an excellent detailed history of the TR6 clutch, =
its problems and offered solutions. You really lay out the history of =
the clutch and the machinations of the supply chain.  Even though I=E2=80=99=
ve had my TR6 for over 20 years I=E2=80=99ve never read so detailed an =
explanation.=20
	Antidotally, I=E2=80=99ve had a Gunst bearing set up in my car =
that I got when they first came out and have always had a smooth clutch =
acton and never any kind of issue with it.  I=E2=80=99m not sure that =
they sell them anymore thought.
	Thanks for taking the time John.
	Best,
	Bob
	=E2=80=9972 TR6

> Begin forwarded message:
>=20
> From: John Cyganowski <[email-masked]>
> Subject: Re: [6pack] Clutch Set Recommendations
> Date: June 21, 2021 at 1:21:21 PM EDT
> To: "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>
>=20
> "The  six cylinder car's clutch is not such a happy story and is the =
Achilles Heel of the 6 cylinder cars."  So says Roger Williams in his =
book; How to Restore Triumph TR5/250 & TR6.
>=20
> I am not going to reproduce that section of the book here, but I will =
try to de-mystify this area of the car.
>=20
>=20
> a.) mechanical tolerances/design deficiency.
> b.) supersession
> c.) poor documentation
>=20
> The clutch design does not have much allowance for wear & tear. =
Originally a 0.75" Master Cylinder was fitted and this worked well but =
their were complaints of "heavy clutch" with this system. During the =
1970 model year, the master cylinder was changed to a 0.70" unit. This =
did soften up the clutch pressure, but now wear and tear deficiencies of =
the mechanical parts became significant issues causing drag and partial =
clutch disengagement. Bushing wear, clutch fork pin wear , cylinder =
leaks etc. will cause poor performance. =20
>=20
> The car parts biz is quite dynamic, and companies get sold, go out of =
business, or simply manage the life cycle of their products. Part of =
this is that if they have a slow or small selling item, they look around =
to see if they have another part with greater sales that could be use =
for the slow selling application and they discontinue the part for the =
slow selling application.  The original clutch & driven plate were =
Laycock units and worked quite well.  But Laycock sold their clutch =
business to LUK. LUK stopped making the TR6 Clutch some time ago.  Enter =
Borg & Beck.  They offered a clutch for the TR6 that I think became a =
standard.  It worked quite well. But in time, they saw slow sales for =
this model and it disappeared from the inventory. B&B used colored paint =
spots to mark their different pressure plates - I believe there was a =
"Yellow-spot" a "Green-Spot" and a "Blue-spot".  I don't recall which =
one was used on the TR6, but it was discontinued and superceded with one =
of the other clutches. Should be ok right?  It fits right?  No problem =
then!  Wrong! Wrong because one of these clutches was designed for a =
much heavier vehicle (Van). You want a good tight clutch right?  Yes, =
but excessive spring pressure is very hard on the thrust washers when =
the clutch is disengaged.  Not a good situation. Also it increases =
pressure on the clutch fork pin and can break it. Anyone who has ever =
had a broken clutch fork pin knows what a PITA it is. Then B&B was sold =
to Delphi and that product line was rationalized with yet another clutch =
that had "cranked" spring fingers. Another generic parts vendor Quinton =
Hazel also has such a clutch.  I have heard mixed reports on this type, =
with some folks reporting squealing and other reporting good operation.  =
I can only tell you that their original Laycock design was straight =
fingered. Some of the squealing reports seem to be linked with larger =
throw-out bearings when used with the cranked fingered clutches.  Now =
some info about the throw-out bearings.
>=20
> The original configuration was an RHP bearing on a bronze carrier that =
was pinned. A while back reports came out about premature failures with =
the RHP bearings. Either a bad batch of bearing was made or quality had =
suffered. It is hard to know what happened, because once a part like =
this gets a "black-eye", people move away from them because they are =
such a pain to change, nobody wants to take a chance on it again.  I am =
not saying that RHP bearings are good or bad, simply relating what I =
have heard.  Anecdote - This became an issue for me because I was a =
"clutch rider" (head hung in shame).  I would sit there at a light with =
my left foot on the clutch and my foot on the brake. After  a while I =
began to hear my bearing (an RHP as it turns out) whirring away.  So =
when I pulled the tranny for another project, I decided that I should =
get a new bearing and it would not be an RHP.  Now was it a crappy =
bearing or a crappy driver that was the issue?  These things are hard to =
tease apart.  There are now a number of brands out there, but I will =
mention 3.  The Koyo bearing was originally designed for a Landcruiser. =
It was larger than the other bearings.  Some folks love'em and some =
folks have reporting squealing.  It is true that being a larger bearing =
it is going to take more force to overcome inertia and get it spinning. =
There is another bearing that comes highly recommended called KYK. Never =
used one but would because of this recommendation from a source that I =
trust. Gunst has become a dirty name in some quarters of the Triumph =
community.  It was hyped as a godsend, and then a few problems were =
mentioned (hard to track down the variables).  I will say that the Gust =
bearings are different in that they are meant to contact the clutch at =
all times.  I have put one in my car.  I don't know what to expect but I =
hope for the best.  Finally carriers.  Bronze carriers have been =
mentioned as preferred. It makes sense as they are useful in =
circumstances when you have surface movements in that bronze seems to =
resist abrasion and not gall. Mating the carrier to the bearing is a =
precision operation.  Most of us should either buy a bearing that is =
mated to the carrier or have a good machine shop do it for you. "Pinned" =
refers to a hardened pin that prevents the bearing carrier from rotating =
on the clutch fork pin. This makes sense to me as we want to gearing to =
rotate and not the carrier.  I know folks who have had squealing issue =
without a pin. Again drilling and installing an anti-rotation pin is =
best left to a shop for most of us.
>=20
> "Magic Clutch" Kit - Hype or for real?  A word about Charles Runyon. =
Charles Runyon, the former proprietor of the Roadster Factory has =
recently passed away.  I won't speak ill of the dead except to =
acknowledge that some folks in our community may have got hurt over some =
of his business practices late in his life.  I will say that Charles and =
his company have been for a very long time, real friends and proponents =
of our community.   Charles had noticed that there seemed to be a lot of =
clutch issues with our cars and some of these issues no doubt blew back =
on him, when new parts he sold didn't fix the issues (remember these =
problems are hard to tease apart). Being very well connected in the =
community he was able to pull opinions from some of the most =
knowledgeable folks in our hobby and come of with a serious attempt at =
rectifying these clutch issues. Charles realized that the reliability of =
the clutch mechanics was as important as the clutch components =
themselves and pulled together a kit of parts that would significantly =
improve the probability of successful clutch repair.  So I think it is =
for real and not hype, that when you do a clutch job you should replace =
everything. It isn't that much more money and it worth the extra effort. =
He also discovered the Sachs clutch.  This clutch most resembles the =
original Laycock clutch design. This is the clutch I have used in my =
car.  I have gone a bit further and added a feature that allows me  to =
lubricate my clutch shaft with a grease gun. If you are interested I can =
tell about this in another post.=20
>=20
> Despite all of these there were still more people than there should =
have been that were reporting clutch issues. A few years back a couple =
of sleuths uncovered the "dowel" bolts. In the parts lists, there are 2 =
special bolts among the many bolts that mate engine the bell housing.  =
These are referred to as "dowel bolts". Williams in his book obliquely =
mentions "locating bolts".  If the bell housing is misaligned to the =
engine even a little bit, poor clutch performance results. These bolts =
have larger chanks and are located at 2 and 8 O'clock and align the =
transmission to the engine. If you lose these bolts or don't put them in =
first than you can have clutch issues no matter what you do.  Many folks =
have installed hardened steel dowels in place of these bolts. =20
>=20
> Hopefully, this summary will help you with your clutch replacement.  =
Please excuse the length of it.  Many folks referred to different =
aspects of this story, but I thought it would be good to put it all in =
one place.
>=20
> Regards-
> John Cyg
> 70 Damson
> CC52927LO
> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Unsubscribe/Manage: =
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/6pack/[email-masked]
>=20

--Apple-Mail=_4B74739D-6C65-4351-B1A9-5CC1C6F59238
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">John,<div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>Wow, that was an excellent =
detailed history of the TR6 clutch, its problems and offered solutions. =
You really lay out the history of the clutch and the machinations of the =
supply chain. &nbsp;Even though I=E2=80=99ve had my TR6 for over 20 =
years I=E2=80=99ve never read so detailed an =
explanation.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>Antidotally, I=E2=80=99ve had a =
Gunst bearing set up in my car that I got when they first came out and =
have always had a smooth clutch acton and never any kind of issue with =
it. &nbsp;I=E2=80=99m not sure that they sell them anymore =
thought.</div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>Thanks for taking the time =
John.</div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>Best,</div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>Bob</div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>=E2=80=9972 TR6</div><div =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">Begin forwarded message:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class=3D""><span=
 style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, =
sans-serif; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);" class=3D""><b class=3D"">From: =
</b></span><span style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica =
Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">John Cyganowski &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" class=3D"">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: =
0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, =
sans-serif; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);" class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject: =
</b></span><span style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica =
Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D"">Re: [6pack] =
Clutch Set Recommendations</b><br class=3D""></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
-webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; =
color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);" class=3D""><b class=3D"">Date: =
</b></span><span style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica =
Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">June 21, 2021 at 1:21:21 PM =
EDT<br class=3D""></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class=3D""><span=
 style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, =
sans-serif; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);" class=3D""><b class=3D"">To: =
</b></span><span style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica =
Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">"<a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" class=3D"">[email-masked]</a>" =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
class=3D"">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br class=3D""></span></div><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"ydp4ce06f07yahoo-style-wrap" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica =
Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><div =
id=3D"ydp4ce06f07yiv3247099730" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"ydp4ce06f07yiv3247099730yahoo-style-wrap" =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, =
sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">"The&nbsp; six =
cylinder car's clutch is not such a happy story and is the Achilles Heel =
of the 6 cylinder cars."&nbsp; So says Roger Williams in his book; <u =
class=3D"">How to Restore Triumph TR5/250 &amp; TR6</u>.</div><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">I =
am not going to reproduce that section of the book here, but I will try =
to de-mystify this area of the car.</div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">The issues center =
around:</div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">a.) mechanical tolerances/design =
deficiency.</div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">b.) supersession</div><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">c.) poor documentation</div><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">The clutch =
design does not have much allowance for wear &amp; tear. Originally a =
0.75" Master Cylinder was fitted and this worked well but their were =
complaints of "heavy clutch" with this system. During the 1970 model =
year, the master cylinder was changed to a 0.70" unit. This did soften =
up the clutch pressure, but now wear and tear deficiencies of the =
mechanical parts became significant issues causing drag and partial =
clutch disengagement. Bushing wear, clutch fork pin wear , cylinder =
leaks etc. will cause poor performance.&nbsp;&nbsp;</div><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">The car =
parts biz is quite dynamic, and companies get sold, go out of business, =
or simply manage the life cycle of their products. Part of this is that =
if they have a slow or small selling item, they look around to see if =
they have another part with greater sales that could be use for the slow =
selling application and they discontinue the part for the slow selling =
application.&nbsp; The original clutch &amp; driven plate were Laycock =
units and worked quite well.&nbsp; But Laycock sold their clutch =
business to LUK. LUK stopped making the TR6 Clutch some time ago.&nbsp; =
Enter Borg &amp; Beck.&nbsp; They offered a clutch for the TR6 that I =
think became a standard.&nbsp; It worked quite well. But in time, they =
saw slow sales for this model and it disappeared from the inventory. =
B&amp;B used colored paint spots to mark their different pressure plates =
- I believe there was a "Yellow-spot" a "Green-Spot" and a =
"Blue-spot".&nbsp; I don't recall which one was used on the TR6, but it =
was discontinued and superceded with one of the other clutches. Should =
be ok right?&nbsp; It fits right?&nbsp; No problem then!&nbsp; Wrong! =
Wrong because one of these clutches was designed for a much heavier =
vehicle (Van). You want a good tight clutch right?&nbsp; Yes, but =
excessive spring pressure is very hard on the thrust washers when the =
clutch is disengaged.&nbsp; Not a good situation. Also it increases =
pressure on the clutch fork pin and can break it. Anyone who has ever =
had a broken clutch fork pin knows what a PITA it is. Then B&amp;B was =
sold to Delphi and that product line was rationalized with yet another =
clutch that had "cranked" spring fingers. Another generic parts vendor =
Quinton Hazel also has such a clutch.&nbsp; I have heard mixed reports =
on this type, with some folks reporting squealing and other reporting =
good operation.&nbsp; I can only tell you that their original Laycock =
design was straight fingered. Some of the squealing reports seem to be =
linked with larger throw-out bearings when used with the cranked =
fingered clutches.&nbsp; Now some info about the throw-out =
bearings.</div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false" class=3D"">The original configuration =
was an RHP bearing on a bronze carrier that was pinned. A while back =
reports came out about premature failures with the RHP bearings. Either =
a bad batch of bearing was made or quality had suffered. It is hard to =
know what happened, because once a part like this gets a "black-eye", =
people move away from them because they are such a pain to change, =
nobody wants to take a chance on it again.&nbsp; I am not saying that =
RHP bearings are good or bad, simply relating what I have heard.&nbsp; =
Anecdote - This became an issue for me because I was a "clutch rider" =
(head hung in shame).&nbsp; I would sit there at a light with my left =
foot on the clutch and my foot on the brake. After&nbsp; a while I began =
to hear my bearing (an RHP as it turns out) whirring away.&nbsp; So when =
I pulled the tranny for another project, I decided that I should get a =
new bearing and it would not be an RHP.&nbsp; Now was it a crappy =
bearing or a crappy driver that was the issue?&nbsp; These things are =
hard to tease apart.&nbsp; There are now a number of brands out there, =
but I will mention 3.&nbsp; The Koyo bearing was originally designed for =
a Landcruiser. It was larger than the other bearings.&nbsp; Some folks =
love'em and some folks have reporting squealing.&nbsp; It is true that =
being a larger bearing it is going to take more force to overcome =
inertia and get it spinning. There is another bearing that comes highly =
recommended called KYK. Never used one but would because of this =
recommendation from a source that I trust. Gunst has become a dirty name =
in some quarters of the Triumph community.&nbsp; It was hyped as a =
godsend, and then a few problems were mentioned (hard to track down the =
variables).&nbsp; I will say that the Gust bearings are different in =
that they are meant to contact the clutch at all times.&nbsp; I have put =
one in my car.&nbsp; I don't know what to expect but I hope for the =
best.&nbsp; Finally carriers.&nbsp; Bronze carriers have been mentioned =
as preferred. It makes sense as they are useful in circumstances when =
you have surface movements in that bronze seems to resist abrasion and =
not gall. Mating the carrier to the bearing is a precision =
operation.&nbsp; Most of us should either buy a bearing that is mated to =
the carrier or have a good machine shop do it for you. "Pinned" refers =
to a hardened pin that prevents the bearing carrier from rotating on the =
clutch fork pin. This makes sense to me as we want to gearing to rotate =
and not the carrier.&nbsp; I know folks who have had squealing issue =
without a pin. Again drilling and installing an anti-rotation pin is =
best left to a shop for most of us.</div><div dir=3D"ltr" =
data-setdir=3D"false" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div dir=3D"ltr" =
data-setdir=3D"false" class=3D"">"Magic Clutch" Kit - Hype or for =
real?&nbsp; A word about Charles Runyon. Charles Runyon, the former =
proprietor of the Roadster Factory has recently passed away.&nbsp; I =
won't speak ill of the dead except to acknowledge that some folks in our =
community may have got hurt over some of his business practices late in =
his life.&nbsp; I will say that Charles and his company have been for a =
very long time, real friends and proponents of our community.&nbsp; =
&nbsp;Charles had noticed that there seemed to be a lot of clutch issues =
with our cars and some of these issues no doubt blew back on him, when =
new parts he sold didn't fix the issues (remember these problems are =
hard to tease apart). Being very well connected in the community he was =
able to pull opinions from some of the most knowledgeable folks in our =
hobby and come of with a serious attempt at rectifying these clutch =
issues. Charles realized that the reliability of the clutch mechanics =
was as important as the clutch components themselves and pulled together =
a kit of parts that would significantly improve the probability of =
successful clutch repair.&nbsp; So I think it is for real and not hype, =
that when you do a clutch job you should replace everything. It isn't =
that much more money and it worth the extra effort. He also discovered =
the Sachs clutch.&nbsp; This clutch most resembles the original Laycock =
clutch design. This is the clutch I have used in my car.&nbsp; I have =
gone a bit further and added a feature that allows me&nbsp; to lubricate =
my clutch shaft with a grease gun. If you are interested I can tell =
about this in another post.&nbsp;</div><div dir=3D"ltr" =
data-setdir=3D"false" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div dir=3D"ltr" =
data-setdir=3D"false" class=3D"">Despite all of these there were still =
more people than there should have been that were reporting clutch =
issues. A few years back a couple of sleuths uncovered the "dowel" =
bolts. In the parts lists, there are 2 special bolts among the many =
bolts that mate engine the bell housing.&nbsp; These are referred to as =
"dowel bolts". Williams in his book obliquely mentions "locating =
bolts".&nbsp; If the bell housing is misaligned to the engine even a =
little bit, poor clutch performance results. These bolts have larger =
chanks and are located at 2 and 8 O'clock and align the transmission to =
the engine. If you lose these bolts or don't put them in first than you =
can have clutch issues no matter what you do.&nbsp; Many folks have =
installed hardened steel dowels in place of these =
bolts.&nbsp;&nbsp;</div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false" =
class=3D"">Hopefully, this summary will help you with your clutch =
replacement.&nbsp; Please excuse the length of it.&nbsp; Many folks =
referred to different aspects of this story, but I thought it would be =
good to put it all in one place.</div><div dir=3D"ltr" =
data-setdir=3D"false" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div dir=3D"ltr" =
data-setdir=3D"false" class=3D"">Regards-</div><div dir=3D"ltr" =
data-setdir=3D"false" class=3D"">John Cyg</div><div dir=3D"ltr" =
data-setdir=3D"false" class=3D"">70 Damson</div><div dir=3D"ltr" =
data-setdir=3D"false" =
class=3D"">CC52927LO</div></div></div></div></div></div>__________________=
_____________________________<br class=3D"">Support <a =
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href=3D"http://www.team.net/donate.html" =
class=3D"">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a><br class=3D"">Suggested =
annual donation &nbsp;$12.96<br class=3D"">Archive: <a =
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[email-masked]

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---

From: John Cyganowski <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2021 02:14:50 +0000 (UTC)

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Sorry for the spelling errors - the most egregious was "gearing" instead of "bearing". Some of this was the auto spell check.
John Cyg
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<html><head></head><body><div class="yahoo-style-wrap" style="font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">Sorry for the spelling errors - the most egregious was "gearing" instead of "bearing". Some of this was the auto spell check.</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">John Cyg</div></div></body></html>
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[email-masked]

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