Hi Phil,
After reading your post I have come to the conclusion Jaguar blew it
when they came up with their xj12c Coupe in the 70's. It's got more leg
room in the back seat then most US cars and no convertable top. Man was
I riped off, or rather my Wife, It's her dream car. That car hates me.
Rick
Phil Vanner wrote:
>
> Well here's my take on all this.
>
> Steve's definition is the one currently used by people trying to sell cars
> to the US. As car makers blend styles and functionality and marketers use
> what ever word they think will people to buy things, the traditional
> definitions get lost.
>
> As I'm into old English cars, and I'm a bit of stickler for language, I use
> the old English definition. Good illustrations are Jaguar XKs and Porsche
> 356's. The factory produced concurrently roadsters, convertibles (or
> Drophead coupes) and coupes.
>
> Roadster - an open car having with minimal weather protection, built for
> lightness and speed. As the sixties came on and "sports cars" got more
> civilized some would apply this only to cars with stow-away tops and
> sidescreens. As Frank applies this term to Spridgets with Roll-up windows,
> but detachable tops, we can see that this definition gets a little fuzzy.
> XK120 Roadsters, Porsche 356 "speedsters" (note that Speedster is the name
> the factory used for the Model, an English book I have refers to this as
> "the roadster version") Italian cars of this type may be referred to as a
> Barchetta - literally "little boat." I believe this is after the little
> "vaporettos" that plied the waters around Venice, they open cockpits, much
> like a sports racer. (I didn't know about the "sedan" reference to boats in
> the dictionary until I added it at the end.- I'm not sure if that makes any
> difference) An old-timer once described a roadster as a motorcycle with a
> body.
>
> Coupe - (in the "European" version of this term there is an accent on the
> final e and it is pronounced "coop-ay" from the French "to cut", as in a
> cut-down car; over here we just say "coop") Any car with a fixed roof and
> two seats. Ah, you say but what about "plus two" cars - this is where the
> ASE definition gets that "maximum space behind the front seats" bit. Did
> you know that Euro-spec first-generation RX-7's had a little rear "+2"
> seat in them and that they raced as "saloon cars" in Britain because of
> this? As did some 911's, etc. Most of us would describe these cars as
> coupes. But would you call a two-door Neon a coupe? (DiamlerChrysler does)
> Yet it easily seats two adults in the back seat. Doesn't meet the ASE
> definition either. The SCCA has it's own definition. This starts to get a
> little fuzzy too.
>
> By this definition an MGB GT isn't a coupe - it's a GT (Something else,
> this seems to be made-up term used by European automakers to avoid calling
> their fixed-roof "plus-two" seating cars saloons or sedans)
>
> Convertible - (Originally "Convertible Coupe" or "Drophead Coupe") this was
> a car that could be converted from an open car to a closed car. Note that a
> roadster with it's top up was not considered a closed car. I'll take you
> for a ride in my sidescreen car to show you what I mean, if you like. Now
> we use the term to refer to any car with a fabric roof, but "in the day" a
> four seat open car would have been called a Tourer. (Further confusing t
> hings, BMW now uses the term "Tourer" in Europe to refer to an estate or
> station wagon) XK Drophead coupes were factory built as soft tops but were
> intended for road use as "sporty" cars rather than for racing which was
> left to the lighter roadster. Same goes for 356's. Some MGTA's (roadsters)
> were bodied by Tickford as three-position Drophead Coupes (closed,
> half-closed {with kind of a targa-top effect} and fully open.) There is one
> of these that makes the rounds of the US concours shows and was cleaning up
> couple of yeas ago. Note that the reference made to the big Healey (with
> plus two seating) earlier in this thread used the term "convertible" but
> not Convertible coupe; I guess this starts to blur also.
>
> The only Modern roadsters (in production, concept roadsters abound) by
> these definitions, would be the original Viper RT/10 (yes, it had
> sidescreens) the Lotus Elise (stowaway top), and the Renault roadster (the
> name escapes me.) I think the Modern use of the term roadster as any
> open-two seater really started up with the Viper, when Chrysler produced a
> roadster for the first time in years. The term "roadster" evokes a certain
> sporty, nostalgic image that sells well to the target market for the
> current crop of Convertible Coupes. Most of that market is a bit old and
> soft for something as basic and elemental as a real roadster. Look at the
> price range.(lot's of profit at that end of the market too.) The sad thing
> is only people with a budget for multiple cars would want a real roadster,
> since they are impractical as "only" cars, but the people who can afford
> two cars are often at an age when they want something a little softer.
> The new SLK has to be called a convertible coupe, in that it has more
> ability to convert from truly closed to truly open than any coupe in
> history.
>
> When I want to know what words mean, I look them up in the dictionary, so I
> thought I'd add that too. By the definition below, I suppose those 30's
> limousine things with the passengers enclosed and the driver out in front,
> in the open, could be called coupes as well. It's not exactly in line with
> the definitions I gave above, but here they are verbatim:
>
> Merriam-Webster http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary
>
> Main Entry: cou.pe
> Variant(s): or coupe /ku-'pA, 2 often 'kup/
> Function: noun
> Etymology: French coupe, from past participle of couper to cut, strike
> Date: 1834
> 1 : a four-wheeled closed horse-drawn carriage for two persons inside with
> an outside seat for the driver in front
> 2 usually coupe : a 2-door automobile often seating only two persons; also
> : one with a tight-spaced rear seat -- compare SEDAN
>
> Main Entry: 1con.vert.ible
> Pronunciation: k&n-'v&r-t&-b&l
> Function: adjective
> Date: 14th century
> 1 : capable of being converted
> 2 : having a top that may be lowered or removed <convertible coupe>
> 3 : capable of being exchanged for a specified equivalent (as another
> currency or security) <a bond convertible to 12 shares of common stock
>
> Main Entry: road.ster
> Pronunciation: 'rOd-st&r
> Function: noun
> Date: 1818
> 1 a : a horse for riding or driving on roads b : a utility saddle horse of
> the hackney type
> 2 a : a light carriage : BUGGY b : an automobile with an open body that
> seats two and has a folding fabric top and a luggage compartment in the
> rear
>
> Main Entry: se.dan
> Pronunciation: si-'dan
> Function: noun
> Etymology: origin unknown
> Date: 1635
> 1 : a portable often covered chair that is designed to carry one person and
> that is borne on poles by two men
> 2 a : a 2- or 4-door automobile seating 4 or more persons and usually
> having a permanent top -- compare COUPE b : a motorboat having one
> passenger compartment
>
> Sorry for the length
>
> Phil Vanner
> Mk1 Midget
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Swift Justice [SMTP:samesq@pacbell.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 1:15 PM
> To: Ajhsys@aol.com
> Cc: samesq@pacbell.net; spridgets@autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: Roadster vs Convertible terminology
>
> Ajhsys@aol.com wrote:
>
> > Okay Steve, then where does the term "drophead" fit in?
>
> I've most often heard the term "drophead coupe" in reference to Jaguars.
> My best guess is that it refers to a coupe that was made into a convertible
> by the factory. (a drop head) I don't know if our bretheren across the
> pond
> use the same definition of a coupe as the ASE does, which, as I mentioned,
> is a specified volume of cubic feet behind the front seats (I can never
> remember that darn number) This area can include a back seat, as long as
> it
> stays within the volume restriction. Hence the Jaguar e-type coupes, and
> more modern examples being the Subaru XT coupe and the Hyundai Scoupe,
> which
> incidentally have a back seat or "parcel shelf" depending on your trim
> level.
>
> Steve.
--
52 MGTD,Sparky 74 MGB, B-tris 76 XJ12 Coupe, Jacque
60 Bugeye, Puddles 58 MGA Coupe, Ruby
http://www.softcom.net/users/walters
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