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Hi All
With regard to this statement... "To me, what makes an M an M is the
motor. If an M no longer has its original motor, or equal replacement, it
has lost its character as an M." I respectfully disagree.
I have known several 100Ms where the engine was completely shot, needing
almost everything new internally, e.g.,. New head and valve train, new
crank, rods, pistons and camshaft. original carburetors often go missing...
What's left?
Conversely, the car had all eight of its number body panels. To me this is
more important than the engine.
Regarding the frame and chassis, Colin Rule of Sydney [an absolute master
panel beater and body man] worked with Kilmartin to make up COMPLETE frame
and chassis assemblies. These were absolutely correct, spot-on
reproductions down to the mm and needing nothing but to hang the body
panels. I am hoping that whoever buys Kilmartin, that these BN1 and BN2
chassis continue to be made. At the time back in 2019 they were around $20K
Australian! Shipping extra of course
Cheers,
Curt Arndt
On Fri, Dec 15, 2023 at 11:45=E2=80=AFAM josef-eckert--- via Healeys <
healeys@autox.team.net> wrote:
> What makes a 100M?
> Very good question and not easy to answer.
>
> In my opinion, an Austin-Healey 100M, especially as the price category is=
significantly higher than the normal 100,
> is a car that any modification reduces its value. A heavily modified 100M=
is nothing special. It's a modified 100 and
> no longer an M. But this is my personal opinion. A new chassis would be s=
uch a major modification for me, as would a
> conversion to disc brakes at the front or a conversion to a Weber carbure=
ttors, etc. This would be simply no longer a
> Genuine 100M. I would then rather buy an original Austin-Healey 100 for t=
he same money. But I have to admit, for me
> the hype surrounding the 100M is far exaggerated for what the car is. It'=
s a special model with a little more
> horsepower, but not anything particularly special. Its like an Alpina BMW=
or a AMG Mercedes.
>
> Josef Eckert
> Germany
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original-Nachricht-----
>
> Betreff: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
>
> Datum: 2023-12-15T18:07:16+0100
>
> Von: "Bob Spidell" <bspidell@comcast.net>
>
> An: "HealeyRick" <healeyrik@gmail.com>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Note the Registry will also certify 'Le Mans Conversions,' which may be
> what Kent's nasty is/was. Some have noted you can build a 'better M' with
> aftermarket parts (Isky cam, alloy head, SBC, etc.).
>
> I don't think either Kilmartin or Jules makes a 100 chassis, but I'd be
> somewhat more sympathetic to that, but not so much hanging an M body and
> parts on a BN1 (a BN2, *maybe*). The main problem I see is an earnest
> owner may sell a conversion (aka 'counterfeit') with full disclosure, but
> an owner or two down the road the 'Tribute' tag has been conveniently
> forgotten (I'm not all in on 'tribute' anything, be they cars or rock
> bands).
>
>
> On 12/15/2023 7:17 AM, HealeyRick wrote:
>
> This is all hypothesis based on speculation so take it with that caveat.
> Let's say one had a rusty factory 100M that was so bad it needed a new
> frame. How hard would it be to transfer the 100M body parts over to a
> solid BN1 chassis along with the oh-so-valuable chassis plate? The 100M
> Registry seems to focus mostly on the original body parts and cockpit
> surrounds to certify a car. Even cars with non-original engines have been
> registered. I'm pretty certain Kent Lacy's Nasty M was on the registry. S=
o
> is the BaT car still an M? Some pretty valuable race cars have been
> crashed and fitted with new chassis and still bring big money at auction.
>
> To me, what makes an M an M is the motor. If an M no longer has its
> original motor, or equal replacement, it has lost its character as an M.
> Otherwise, it's a BN2 with a louvered hood. It's almost like if a Sunbeam
> Tiger blew its motor and it was replaced with an Alpine motor. Sure, it's
> got the right serial number on the unibody, but it's not much of a Tiger
> anymore. The BaT car with what appears to be non-original carbs and
> distributor caused me concern. Who would remove those from an original M
> motor? C'mon 100M sellers, pop the valve cover, remove the rockers and pu=
t
> a dial indicator on the pushrods so we can see if there is still a 100M c=
am
> in the lump!
>
> Happy Healeydays,
> Rick Neville
>
> On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 1:05=E2=80=AFPM Bob Spidell <bspidell@comcast.net=
> wrote:
>
>> Excellent report, thank you.
>>
>> I was one of the commenters on BaT--I joined BaT to comment--but, since =
I
>> have a BN2/100M I'm not familiar with BN1 differences and could only poi=
nt
>> out obvious differences with my car (which was completely original as fa=
r
>> as I can tell, except for extensive body work). One thing that was somew=
hat
>> disturbing to me is that the Registry certified this car, while noting s=
ome
>> major anomalies (the carbs, for instance, looked to be new and didn't ha=
ve
>> the hand scribing like my car).
>>
>> The other thing that interested me is, how do you value this car? Yes,
>> it's a very nice car, probably a good driver but, IMO, its value *should=
*
>> be less than a comparably restored, original BN1 or BN2. And, what did t=
he
>> previous owner know, or should have known about this car? How do you
>> present it for sale; as a BN1 with 'M bits?' It would need the proverbia=
l
>> asterisk alongside the page title.
>>
>> Bob
>>
>>
>>
>> On 12/14/2023 8:15 AM, S and T Miller wrote:
>>
>> If you were following it recently, you might find my observations
>> interesting. So I went down to Michael's motor cars to help him determi=
ne
>> if the 100m indeed has a BN1 chassis. Here is what I found.
>>
>> It has the BN1 inner fenders with the rolled pressings. It has the BN1
>> front brake hose frame mount the is less pronounced welded BN1 bracket, =
as
>> the later cars have a bolted on bracket. The front shock towers have no
>> evidence of being replaced and show the factory welds. The gearbox mount
>> shows non-original/factory welds as if it were replaced to accommodate t=
he
>> BN2 mount.
>>
>> What I found most interesting is that where a BN1 has two OD relays
>> mounted under the dash, it took shining a light it different directions =
to
>> just make out the slight evidence of filled holes (4 of then for the two
>> relays). And I was able to reach inside the vent just below that area wi=
th
>> my fingers and feel the welds and welding wire that was used to fill tho=
se
>> 4 holes. I can tell you someone took great care to try and make those ho=
les
>> seem as they never existed. Along with that, where a BN2 would have the
>> single OD relay attached to the firewall with machine screws screwed int=
o
>> welded captive nuts on the firewall, you can see plain sheet screws wer=
e
>> used to mount it in what would be a BN2 relay position.
>>
>> I also feel the engine tag is a repo because of the lighter stamping.
>> Originals tend to have the numbers/ letters stamped with a deeper end
>> result. I took my repo engine tag along to compare, and they appeared
>> identical in the stampings. The body/ bath tag and VIN plate appear
>> original. Now that doesn't mean that the engine isn't the correct M engi=
ne,
>> because there could be many reasons why the engine tag was replaced. Any=
one
>> who drove a stock 100 compared to a 100M can attest to the difference in
>> power, and Mike stated that it indeed has that M power.
>>
>> The boot lid shows no evidence of the stay bracket being swapped off
>> another lid, and if you look closely you can see that the boot shows som=
e
>> previous age/life. I'd believe it to be original. I could not make out a=
ny
>> evidence of the bonnet number being sliced in from a M bonnet, but I wil=
l
>> say that the underside of the bonnet seemed suspiciously clean and
>> prestine. I couldn't detect any age like the boot, but that would be for
>> someone else to decide.
>>
>> Mike had asked me if the cold air box was original, and I simply don't
>> have that experience to know. I have anyways heard if it looks old, it's
>> original. It does indeed look to have some age, so?
>>
>> I feel at some point in this car's life someone went to some effort to
>> try and conceal that these 100M parts were reinstalled on a BN1 chassis.
>> Another interesting note is that there was an attempt to fill the holes
>> where a BN1 chassis plate is fitted on the frame rail. Perhaps the perso=
n
>> didn't realize that the holes continued over to the BN2's, and thought t=
hey
>> were erasing evidence of a BN1 chassis?
>>
>> With all that said, Mike is simply trying to represent the car correctly=
.
>> The car is a very nice car! Paint is very nice, car is straight, and gap=
s
>> look good. Interior is very nice, and looks to be a very good car all
>> around. I didn't drive the car, but Mike has years of experience under h=
is
>> belt, so I'd trust his opinions on that. With the quality of the
>> restoration, it is surprising that the front frame to shroud brackets w=
ere
>> not welded to the frame. Chrome looks good, and I'd think winning some
>> trophies at a popular vote car would not be an issue.
>>
>> The Millers
>>
>> "Always drive them, but remember each drive in an antique car is a test
>> drive."
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation $12.75
>>
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
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>>
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>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>>
>> Unsubscribe/Manage:
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>>
>> =EF=BB=BF
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
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>
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi All</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div>Wit=
h regard to this statement... "To me, what makes an M an M is the moto=
r.=C2=A0 If an M no longer has its original motor, or equal replacement, it=
has lost its character as an M." I respectfully disagree.</div><div><=
br></div><div>I have known several 100Ms where the engine was completely sh=
ot, needing almost everything=C2=A0new internally,=C2=A0e.g.,. New head and=
valve train, new crank, rods, pistons and camshaft. original carburetors o=
ften go missing... What's left?</div><div><br></div><div>Conversely, th=
e car had all eight of its number body panels. To me this is more important=
than the engine.</div><div><br></div><div>Regarding the frame and chassis,=
Colin Rule of Sydney [an absolute master panel beater and body man] worked=
with Kilmartin to make up COMPLETE frame and chassis assemblies. These wer=
e absolutely=C2=A0correct,=C2=A0spot-on reproductions down to the mm and ne=
eding nothing but to hang the body panels. I am hoping that whoever buys Ki=
lmartin, that these BN1 and BN2 chassis continue to be made. At the time ba=
ck in 2019 they were around $20K Australian! Shipping extra of course=C2=A0=
</div><div><br></div><div>Cheers,</div><div><br></div><div>Curt Arndt</div>=
</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_=
attr">On Fri, Dec 15, 2023 at 11:45=E2=80=AFAM josef-eckert--- via Healeys =
<<a href=3D"mailto:healeys@autox.team.net";>healeys@autox.team.net</a>>=
; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px=
0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><p=
re id=3D"m_-2420389913312103867tw-target-text" dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"text-al=
ign:left"><span lang=3D"en" style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:arial,helve=
tica,sans-serif">What makes a 100M? <br>Very good question and not easy to =
answer.<br><br>In my opinion, an Austin-Healey 100M, especially as the pric=
e category is significantly higher than the normal 100, <br>is a car that a=
ny modification reduces its value. A heavily modified 100M is nothing speci=
al. It's a modified 100 and <br>no longer an M. But this is my personal=
opinion. A new chassis would be such a major modification for me, as would=
a <br>conversion to disc brakes at the front or a conversion to a Weber ca=
rburettors, etc. This would be simply no longer a <br>Genuine 100M. I would=
then rather buy an original Austin-Healey 100 for the same money. But I ha=
ve to admit, for me <br>the hype surrounding the 100M is far exaggerated fo=
r what the car is. It's a special model with a little more <br>horsepow=
er, but not anything particularly special. Its like an Alpina BMW or a AMG =
Mercedes.<br><br>Josef Eckert<br>Germany<br></span></pre>
<p style=3D"margin:0px"><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-ser=
if;font-size:10pt;color:rgb(0,0,0);text-decoration:none">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p style=3D"margin:0px"><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-ser=
if;font-size:10pt;color:rgb(0,0,0);text-decoration:none">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p style=3D"margin:0px">=C2=A0</p>
<p style=3D"margin:0px">=C2=A0</p>
<p style=3D"margin:0px">-----Original-Nachricht-----</p>
<p style=3D"margin:0px">Betreff: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT</p>
<p style=3D"margin:0px">Datum: 2023-12-15T18:07:16+0100</p>
<p style=3D"margin:0px">Von: "Bob Spidell" <<a href=3D"mailto:=
bspidell@comcast.net" target=3D"_blank">bspidell@comcast.net</a>></p>
<p style=3D"margin:0px">An: "HealeyRick" <<a href=3D"mailto:he=
aleyrik@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">healeyrik@gmail.com</a>></p>
<p style=3D"margin:0px">=C2=A0</p>
<p style=3D"margin:0px">=C2=A0</p>
<p style=3D"margin:0px">=C2=A0</p>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font:12px Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">Note t=
he Registry will also certify 'Le Mans Conversions,' which may be w=
hat Kent's nasty is/was. Some have noted you can build a 'better M&=
#39; with aftermarket parts (Isky cam, alloy head, SBC, etc.). <br><br>I do=
n't think either Kilmartin or Jules makes a 100 chassis, but I'd be=
somewhat more sympathetic to that, but not so much hanging an M body and p=
arts on a BN1 (a BN2, <em>maybe</em>). The main problem I see is an earnest=
owner may sell a conversion (aka 'counterfeit') with full disclosu=
re, but an owner or two down the road the 'Tribute' tag has been co=
nveniently forgotten (I'm not all in on 'tribute' anything, be =
they cars or rock bands).<br><br><br>
<div>On 12/15/2023 7:17 AM, HealeyRick wrote:</div>
<blockquote>
<div dir=3D"ltr">This is all hypothesis based on speculation so take it wit=
h that caveat.=C2=A0 Let's say one had a rusty factory 100M that was so=
bad it needed a new frame.=C2=A0 How hard would it be to transfer the 100M=
body parts over to a solid BN1 chassis along with the oh-so-valuable chass=
is plate? The 100M Registry seems to focus mostly on the original body part=
s and cockpit surrounds to certify a car. Even cars with non-original engin=
es have been registered. I'm pretty certain Kent Lacy's Nasty M was=
on the registry. So is the BaT car still an M?=C2=A0 Some pretty valuable =
race cars have been crashed and fitted with=C2=A0new chassis and still brin=
g big money at auction.=C2=A0
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>To me, what makes an M an M is the motor.=C2=A0 If an M no longer has =
its original motor, or equal replacement, it has lost its character as an M=
. Otherwise, it's a BN2 with a louvered hood. It's almost like if a=
Sunbeam Tiger blew its motor and it was replaced with an Alpine motor. Sur=
e, it's got the right serial number on the unibody, but it's not mu=
ch of a Tiger anymore. The BaT car with what appears to be non-original car=
bs and distributor caused me concern. Who would remove those from an origin=
al M motor? C'mon 100M sellers, pop the valve cover, remove the rockers=
and put a dial indicator on the pushrods so we can see if there is still a=
100M cam in the lump!</div>
<div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>Happy Healeydays,</div>
<div>Rick Neville</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div class=3D"gmail_attr" dir=3D"ltr">On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 1:05=E2=80=AF=
PM Bob Spidell <<a href=3D"mailto:bspidell@comcast.net"; target=3D"_blank=
">bspidell@comcast.net</a>> wrote:</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>Excellent report, thank you. <br><br>I was one of the commenters on Ba=
T--I joined BaT to comment--but, since I have a BN2/100M I'm not famili=
ar with BN1 differences and could only point out obvious differences with m=
y car (which was completely original as far as I can tell, except for exten=
sive body work). One thing that was somewhat disturbing to me is that the R=
egistry certified this car, while noting some major anomalies (the carbs, f=
or instance, looked to be new and didn't have the hand scribing like my=
car). <br><br>The other thing that interested me is, how do you value this=
car? Yes, it's a very nice car, probably a good driver but, IMO, its v=
alue <em>should</em> be less than a comparably restored, original BN1 or BN=
2. And, what did the previous owner know, or should have known about this c=
ar? How do you present it for sale; as a BN1 with 'M bits?' It woul=
d need the proverbial asterisk alongside the page title.<br><br>Bob<br><br>=
<br><br>
<div>On 12/14/2023 8:15 AM, S and T Miller wrote:</div>
<blockquote>
<div style=3D"font-family:inherit;font-size:inherit;color:inherit;backgroun=
d-color:transparent">
<div>If you were following it recently,=C2=A0 you might find my observation=
s interesting.=C2=A0 So I went down to Michael's motor cars to help him=
determine if the 100m indeed has a BN1 chassis. Here is what I found.</div=
>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>It has the BN1 inner fenders with the rolled pressings. It has the BN1=
front brake hose frame mount the is less pronounced welded BN1 bracket, as=
the later cars have a bolted on bracket. The front shock towers have no ev=
idence of being replaced and show the factory welds. The gearbox mount show=
s non-original/factory welds as if it were replaced to accommodate the BN2 =
mount.=C2=A0</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>What I found most interesting is that where a BN1 has two OD relays mo=
unted under the dash, it took shining a light it different directions to ju=
st make out the slight evidence of filled holes (4 of then for the two rela=
ys). And I was able to reach inside the vent just below that area with my f=
ingers and feel the welds and welding wire that was used to fill those 4 ho=
les. I can tell you someone took great care to try and make those holes see=
m as they never existed.=C2=A0 Along with that, where a BN2 would have the =
single OD relay attached to the firewall with machine screws screwed into w=
elded captive nuts on the firewall,=C2=A0 you can see plain sheet screws we=
re used to mount it in what would be a BN2 relay position.=C2=A0</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>I also feel the engine tag is a repo because of the lighter stamping. =
Originals tend to have the numbers/ letters stamped with a deeper end resul=
t.=C2=A0 I took my repo engine tag along to compare, and they appeared iden=
tical in the stampings. The body/ bath tag and VIN plate appear original. N=
ow that doesn't mean that the engine isn't the correct M engine, be=
cause there could be many reasons why the engine tag was replaced. Anyone w=
ho drove a stock 100 compared to a 100M can attest to the difference in pow=
er, and Mike stated that it indeed has that M power.=C2=A0</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>The boot lid shows no evidence of the stay bracket being swapped off a=
nother lid, and if you look closely you can see that the boot shows some pr=
evious age/life. I'd believe it to be original. I could not make out an=
y evidence of the bonnet number being sliced in from a M bonnet, but I will=
say that the underside of the bonnet seemed suspiciously clean and prestin=
e. I couldn't detect any age like the boot, but that would be for someo=
ne else to decide.=C2=A0</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>Mike had asked me if the cold air box was original,=C2=A0 and I simply=
don't have that experience to know. I have anyways heard if it looks o=
ld, it's original.=C2=A0 It does indeed look to have some age, so?</div=
>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>I feel at some point in this car's life someone went to some effor=
t to try and conceal that these 100M parts were reinstalled on a BN1 chassi=
s. Another interesting note is that there was an attempt to fill the holes =
where a BN1 chassis plate is fitted on the frame rail. Perhaps the person d=
idn't realize that the holes continued over to the BN2's, and thoug=
ht they were erasing evidence of a BN1 chassis?=C2=A0</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>With all that said, Mike is simply trying to represent the car correct=
ly. The car is a very nice car! Paint is very nice, car is straight, and ga=
ps look good. Interior is very nice, and looks to be a very good car all ar=
ound. I didn't drive the car, but Mike has years of experience under hi=
s belt, so I'd trust his opinions on that. With the quality of the rest=
oration,=C2=A0 it is surprising that the front frame to shroud brackets wer=
e not welded to the frame. Chrome looks good, and I'd think winning som=
e trophies at a popular vote car would not be an issue.=C2=A0</div>
</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>The Millers<br>=C2=A0<br>"Always drive them, but remember each dr=
ive in an antique car is a test drive."</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>Support Team.Net <a href=
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