All,
Worth a read if you have an older design of engine.
Jon
-----Original Message-----
From: Hermance, Jonathan
Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 6:53 AM
To: 'Bill Beecher'; triumphs@autox.team.net; 'BMCU'
Subject: RE: [Bmcu] TR3 Oil
Bill
Additives that older engine designs need have been removed from modern
oils because the additives clog up catalytic converters. Your TR3 needs
REDLINE Oil products or engine oil used in diesel engines to get the
proper cushioning effect from the oil. I use 20/50 weight REDLINE in my
T-Series MGs.
Jon
-----Original Message-----
From: bmcu-bounces@autox.team.net [mailto:bmcu-bounces@autox.team.net]
On Behalf Of Bill Beecher
Sent: Friday, May 11, 2007 2:47 PM
To: triumphs@autox.team.net; 'BMCU'
Subject: [Bmcu] TR3 Oil
OK, I will admit to being a little out of the loop...it's been a while.
Just getting the '58 TR3A on the road, it has been sitting for 5 years
with fresh oil and I want to change it now that I have started and
driven it about 20-30 miles. The original manual calls for SAE-30 @
40-70 degrees and SAE-40 @ 70+. Fifty years ago there were not all
these multi-grade oils available and I was wondering if a 10w-40w or
some other combination is a better choice these days.
I would appreciate to know what you all use for general use on the road
and around town, not competition.
Thanks,
BillB
TR3 (TS-303766)
"A bad day in your TR is better than a good day playing golf!"
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ZDDP
This page has been created to provide information about a serious
deficiency in modern oils. The first word of this came in the
form of a posting on the UKMGBB by someone named Scott from
Oregon. He posted the following article, written by Keith Ansell:
*********
OIL IS KILLING OUR CARS!!!!!
By: Keith Ansell, Foreign Parts Positively, Inc.
About a year ago I read about the reduction of zinc
dithiophosphate (ZDDP) in the oils supplied with API approval that
could affect sliding and high pressure (EP) friction in our cars.
The reduction of these chemicals in supplied oil was based on the
fact that zinc, manganese and/or phosphates reduce the
effectiveness and eventually damage catalytic converters and
introduce minute amounts of pollutants into our atmosphere.
A month or so ago I had a member of the Columbia Gorge MG Club
bring a totally failed camshaft and lifters back to me that had
only 900 miles on them!! I immediately contacted the camshaft
re-grinder and asked how this could happen. They were well aware
of this problem as they were starting to have many failures of
this type. In the past, the lack of a molybdenum disulfide
camshaft assembly lubricant, at assembly, was about the only thing
that could create this type of problem. My customer has assembled
many engines and had lubricated the camshaft properly and followed
correct break in procedures.
This got me on the phone to Delta Camshaft, one of our major
suppliers. Then the bad news came out: It's today's "modern" API
(American Petroleum Industry) approved oils that are killing our
engines.
Next call: To another major camshaft supplier, both stock and
performance (Crane). They now have an additive for whatever oil
you are using during break-in so that the camshaft and lifters
won't fail in an unreasonably short period of time. They also
suggest using a diesel rated oil on flat tappet engines.
Next call: To a racing oil manufacturer that we use for the race
cars (Redline). Their response: "We are well aware of the problem
and we still use the correct amounts of those additives in our
products". They continued to tell me they are not producing API
approved oils so they don't have to test and comply. Their oils
were NOT the "new, improved and approved" ones that destroy flat
tappet engines! "We just build the best lubricants possible".
Sounds stupid, doesn't it, New-Approved but inferior products, but
it seems to be true for our cars.
To top this off: Our representative from a major supplier of
performance and street engine parts (EPWI) stopped by to "warn us"
of the problem of the NEW oils on flat tappet engines. This was a
call that the representative was making only because of this
problem to warn their engine builders! "The reduction of the zinc,
manganese and phosphates are causing very early destruction of
cams and followers". They are recommending that, for now at least,
there must be a proper oil additive put in the first oil used on
new engines, beyond the liberal use of molydisulfide assembly
lube. They have been told that the first oil is the time the
additives are needed but remain skeptical that the first change is
all that is necessary. Their statement: Use diesel rated oils such
as Delo or Rotella that are usually available at auto stores and
gas stations.
This problem is BIG! American Engine Rebuilder's Association
(AERA) Bulletin #TB2333 directly addresses this problem. I had a
short discussion with their engineer and he agreed with all that I
had been finding.
Next phone call was to a retired engineer from Clevite, a major
bearing and component manufacturer. First surprise was that he
restored older British Motor bikes. The second surprise was that
he was "VERY" aware of this problem because many of the old bikes
had rectangular tappets that couldn't rotate and are having a very
large problem with the new oils. He has written an article for the
British Bike community that verify all the "bad news" we have been
finding.
Comp Cams put out "#225 Tech Bulletin: Flat Tappet Camshafts".
They have both an assembly lube and an oil additive. The telling
sentence in the bulletin was "While this additive was originally
developed specifically for break-in protection, subsequent testing
has proven the durability benefits of its long term use. This
special blend of additives promotes proper break-in and protects
against premature cam and lifter failure by replacing some of the
beneficial ingredients that the oil companies have been required
to remove from the off the-shelf oil".
Next question: Now what do we do?
From the camshaft re-grinders (DeltaCam) "Use oils rated for
diesel use", Delo (Standard Oil product) was named. About the same
price as other quality petroleum based oils. They are not API
formulated and have the zinc dithiophosphate we need in weights we
are familiar with.
From the camshaft manufacturer (Crane): "use our additive" for at
least the first 500 miles.
From General Motors (Chevrolet): add EOS, their oil fortifier, to
your oil, it's only about $12.00 for each oil change for an 8
ounce can (This problem seems to be something GM has known about
for some time!).
From Redline Oil: Use our street formulated synthetics. They have
what we need!
From our major oil distributor: Distributing Castro, Redline,
Valvoline and Industrial oils: "After over a week of contacts we
have verified that the major oil companies are aware of the
problem". "The representatives of the oil companies today are only
aware of marketing programs and have no knowledge of formulation".
The only major oil companies they were aware of for doing anything
to address this are Valvoline that is offering an "Off Road
20W-50" and Redline.
From Castrol: We are beginning to see a pattern emerging on older
cars. It may be advantageous to use a non-approved lubricant, such
as oils that are Diesel rated, 4 Cycle Motorcycle oils and other
specified diesel oils.
Last question: So what are we at Foreign Parts Positively going to
do? After much research we are switching to Redline Street rated
oils and stocking the Castrol products that are diesel rated.
Castrol, owned by British Petroleum, is now just a brand name.
This is a difficult decision as we have been a dealer and great
believer in all Castrol Products for over 40 years. We have been
using Castrol Syntech oil in new engines for about 3 years so the
cost difference in changing to Redline is minimal. The actual cost
in operation is also less as the additive package in Redline makes
a 1-year or up to 18,000 mile change recommended! Yes, it is a
long change interval but with lowered sulfur levels and the
elimination of lead and many other chemicals in the fuels there
are less contaminants in our oil from the fuel, which is the major
contributor to oil degradation. We will continue to offer the
Castrol products but will now only stock the suggested diesel oils
that they produce.
Too many things are starting to show up on this subject and it has
cost us money and time. Be aware that "New and Improved", or even
products we have been using for many years, are destroying our
cars as it isn't the same stuff we were getting even a year ago.
For the cars that use "engine oil" in their gearboxes this may
even pose a problem as these additives that have been removed
could be very critical in gear wear. We will be using oil
specifically formulated for Manual Gearboxes with Brass
Synchronizers. The only oils we are aware of that fit the criteria
are from General Motors and Redline.
If you have any additional input let us know. We need to let every
flat tappet engine owner, i.e.: every British Car owner know that
things are changing and we MUST meet the challenge.
Keith Ansell, President
Foreign Parts Positively, Inc.
www.ForeignPartsPositively.com
360-882-3596
***************************
More:
At this time, late October 2006, it appears that our old staple,
Castrol, has reduced the ZDDP in GTX to about half what it used to
be. The safest bet right now seems to be either the use of
Redline (synthetic) or Valvoline VR1. Today I purchased 7 quarts
of Valvoline VR1 20W-50 at AutoZone for $2.79/quart.
*******************************
More from Keith Ansell:
Oil is Killing our cars Part II
Last month's report on this subject is turning out to be just the
tip of the iceberg! Many publications have had this subject of
zinc-dialkyl-dithiophosphate (ZDDP) covered in varying depths over
the last few months. Some publications have even had conflicting
stories when you compare one month's article with their next
month's article! They are all ending up supporting our report.
I have had the good fortune to have the ear of quite a few leaders
in the industry including some wonderful input from Castrol. We
have been very reluctant to "dump" Castrol, as it has been such a
great supporter of our cars and industry over the years. Castrol
hasn't really abandoned our cars, just shifted to a more mass
marketing mode. Many Castrol products are not appropriate for our
cars today, some still are.
Now for the latest report:
#1 Castrol GTX 20W-50 is still good for our cars after break-in!
10W-40, 10W-30 and other grades are NOT good. Absolute NOT GOOD
for any oil (Any Brand) that is marked "Energy Conserving" in the
API "Donut" on the bottle, these oils are so low with ZDDP or
other additives that they will destroy our cams. Virtually all
"Diesel" rated oils are acceptable.
#2 Castrol HD 30 is a very good oil for break-in of new motors.
This oil has one of the largest concentrations of ZDDP and Moly to
conserve our cams and tappets.
#3 Only an unusual Castrol Syntec 20W-50 approaches the levels of
protection we need when we look to the better synthetic
lubricants. We are attempting to get this oil but will be using
Redline 10W-40 or 10W-30 as these are lighter weights for better
performance, flow volume, less drag and has the additive package
we need.
#4 The trend today is to lighter weight oils to decrease drag,
which increases mileage. Most of these seem to be the "Energy
Conservation" oils that we cannot use.
#5 Redline oil and others are suggesting a 3,000-mile break-in for
new engines! Proper seating of rings, with today's lubricants is
taking that long to properly seal. Shifting to synthetics before
that time will just burn a lot of oil and not run as well as
hoped.
#6 The "Energy Conservation" trend was first lead by automakers to
increase mileage numbers and secondly because the ZDDP and other
chemicals degrade the catalytic converter after extended miles,
increasing pollution. We don't have catalytic converters and the
mileage gains are not that significant for most of us.
For you science buffs: ZDDP is a single polar molecule that is
attracted to Iron based metals. The one polar end tends to "Stand"
the molecule up on the metal surface that it is bonded to by heat
and friction. This forms a sacrificial layer to protect the base
metal of the cam and tappet from contacting each other. Only at
very high pressures on a flat tappet cam is this necessary because
the oil is squeezed/wiped from the surface. This high pressure is
also present on the gudgeon pin (wrist pin) in diesel engines,
therefore the need for ZDDP in diesel engines.
Second part of the equation is Molybdenum disulfide (Moly). The
moly bonds to the zinc adding an additional, very slippery,
sacrificial layer to the metal. I found out that too much of the
moly will create problems; lack of this material reduces the
effectiveness of the ZDDP. The percentage, by weight is from .01
to .02%, not much, but necessary.
Latest conclusions: Running our older, broken in engines on
Castrol 20W-50 GTX is ok.
Break in a new engine for 3,000 miles on HD 30 Castrol.
New engines (after break-in) and fairly low mileage engines will
do best with the Redline 10W-40 or 10W-30 synthetic.
We'll keep you apprised of any new findings! Happy motoring for
now!
******************
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