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Yes, understeer on twisty roads, which I first noticed when the thought
occurred halfway through one turn, "Oh, the car isn't turning! That's
interesting." Like the back end was pushing the car straight. Woke me up
to driving on the alert because the car didn't feel connected to the
road, as your description of a feeling like driving on ice.
Whatever the shop did on round two corrected the occasional dive to the
left when hard braking. Go figure that one.
We did not believe the story about the aftermarket wheels being an issue
- 7" Enkei mags. They tried to blame the wheels and the new tires for
the performance differences. Clearly, this shop doesn't know as much as
it thinks it does, a dangerous situation. They should maybe stick to Volvos.
So, we will get someone else to check alignment and find a new garage to
work on our cars. Thank you so much for all of the notes below! More
info in your post and the links than I knew was available.
Pat
On 6/30/2016 4:22 PM, StagByTriumph@triumphstagclub.org wrote:
>
> I am going to side with Massey on this one, because, he is almost correct.
>
> For confirmation, go check any site recommending alignments for road
> track / autocross racing.
>
> Here is one - http://winhpde.com/track-alignment/
>
> And another http://www.ozebiz.com.au/racetech/theory/align.html
>
> (Ted Schumacher, you and pipe in any time here â?¦)
>
> Most of us want our Triumphs tuned like we are driving on a road
> course race track.
>
> The handling description described is similar to driving on a road of
> ball bearings or ice?
>
> That is oversteer from too much negative camber or too much toe, or
> both, and with full independent suspension, this becomes more critical
> for optimum handling because all four wheels must be properly adjusted
> for correct handling.
>
> Tire size will directly affect the camber condition if the tire is
> wider or narrower than OE, the camber will be directly affected.
> Alignment specifications are set for OE standard tires, which are not
> available o for most of our LBCâ??s these days.
>
> Unless there are bad suspension components or misadjusted wheel
> bearings, the handling condition is completely indicative of
> incorrect alignment.
>
> I had a local alignment guy who did alignments for Rocky Mountain
> Vintage Racers, and he could set up 4 wheel alignment to handle any
> way the driver wanted â?? understeer â?? oversteer â?? neutral.
>
> Depending on the type of suspension, each setup by suspension type is
> different.
>
> TR250â??s have full IRS, so rear toe / camber is just as important as
> the front.
>
> Front toe in adds to the eagerness of the turn, rear toe in adds to
> the quickness to rotate into a turn.
>
> Camber affects how the tire contacts the road surface. Too much
> negative camber and you product oversteer.
>
> Combine with incorrect toe in and negative camber and the car feels
> like it is on ice or ball bearings
>
> My Stags were like that, so was my TR250. The Stag uses Struts, the
> TR250 uses A Arms. I had my guy set the camber and toe front and rear
> at the edge of the specs between neutral and oversteer handling, and
> they now ride like they are on rails, solid as a rock, yet responsive
> and predictive.
>
> Glenn Merrell
>
> +1 (303) 817-8559 mobile
>
> aka StagByTriumph Garage (/now on FaceBook/)
>
> Remember, â??the BEST trophies are: Miles on the Odometer; Stone chips
> in the paint; and DEAD BUGS on the windscreen â?¦ with the occasional
> smell of manure!â??
>
> *From:*Triumphs [mailto:triumphs-bounces@autox.team.net] *On Behalf Of
> *ptegler@verizon.net
> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 28, 2016 8:49 AM
> *To:* dave1massey@cs.com; triumphs@autox.team.net
> *Subject:* Re: [TR] TR250 handling question
>
> pure rubish. Plain and simple they screwed up your alignment as it was
> before.
> Just replacing the rack has nothing to do with alignment (other than
> initial adjustment of course) Camber and caster, alignment and wheel
> balance = tracking
> They simply have not gotten your alignment etc anywhere near where it
> was before.
>
> why did they say you needed a new steering rack? Recent accident?
> (major shock/jolt) over 50-80K miles of rough roads since last serviced?
>
> Paul Tegler
> www.teglerizer.com <http://www.teglerizer.com>
>
> On 06/28/16, Dave<dave1massey@cs.com
>
> That sounds like the caster adjustment is out. TR3's have zero caster
> and I am forever correcting the steering to keep it in the lane.
>
> Dave Massey
>
> -----Original Message-----
> To: triumph list list <triumphs@autox.team.net
> Sent: Mon, Jun 27, 2016 2:58 pm
> Subject: [TR] TR250 handling question
>
> Hello, Listers. Hoping for your expertise here.
>
> Took the 250 to a local shop for some small body repair and new tires.
> Handling of the car has always been superb with wider-than-stock wheels
> and low profile tires, but the two of the tires were 15 years old, so a
> rubber update was needed. The shop also told me that the car also needed
> a new steering rack and tie rod ends. They did this, set alignment and
> lubed the front end.
>
> First getting the car back, the car vibrated at 70 on the highway. Shop
> says they've fixed that with re-balancing the tires. (I haven't driven
> it yet.)
>
> Next, the car feels skittish, jittery at 50-60 mph, and you have to keep
> correcting with steering to keep it straight in its lane. You'll be
> driving along just fine and then Whoops! there is goes twitching left a
> bit. It doesn't feel stuck to the road as before this work was done.
> Here's the question: the shop tells us that this is normal after
> replacing the steering rack, that "the car is more responsive," in their
> words, and has "a more immediate feel to it," but they also reference
> this as "twitchy-ness."
>
> What should expectations be upon replacing steering rack and tie-rod ends?
>
> Many thanks,
>
> Pat Fischer
>
>
>
>
>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/dave1massey@cs.com
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/ptegler@verizon.net
>
>
>
> ** triumphs@autox.team.net **
>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/pfischer@rmi.net
>
>
> No virus found in this message.
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>
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<p>Yes, understeer on twisty roads, which I first noticed when the
thought occurred halfway through one turn, "Oh, the car isn't
turning! That's interesting." Like the back end was pushing the
car straight. Woke me up to driving on the alert because the car
didn't feel connected to the road, as your description of a
feeling like driving on ice.<br>
</p>
<p>Whatever the shop did on round two corrected the occasional dive
to the left when hard braking. Go figure that one.</p>
<p>We did not believe the story about the aftermarket wheels being
an issue - 7" Enkei mags. They tried to blame the wheels and the
new tires for the performance differences. Clearly, this shop
doesn't know as much as it thinks it does, a dangerous situation.
They should maybe stick to Volvos.<br>
</p>
<p>So, we will get someone else to check alignment and find a new
garage to work on our cars. Thank you so much for all of the notes
below! More info in your post and the links than I knew was
available.</p>
<p>Pat<br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 6/30/2016 4:22 PM,
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:StagByTriumph@triumphstagclub.org";>StagByTriumph@triumphstagclub.org</a>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAOZERzOiCItOi8Nw123laD8ijAAAEAAAAJKx6qFOtYhGvTZbBfKRYxgBAAAAAA==@freelanceconsulting.net"
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I
am going to side with Massey on this one, because, he is
almost correct.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">For
confirmation, go check any site recommending alignments for
road track / autocross racing. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Here
is one - <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://winhpde.com/track-alignment/";>http://winhpde.com/track-alignment/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">And
 another <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://www.ozebiz.com.au/racetech/theory/align.html";>http://www.ozebiz.com.au/racetech/theory/align.html</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">(Ted
Schumacher, you and pipe in any time here â?¦)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Most
of us want our Triumphs tuned like we are driving on a roadÂ
course race track.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">The
handling description described  is similar to driving on a
road of ball bearings or ice? <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">That
is oversteer from too much negative camber or too much toe,
or both, and with full independent suspension, this becomes
more critical for optimum handling because all four wheels
must be properly adjusted for correct
handling.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Tire
size will directly affect the camber condition if the tire
is wider or narrower than OE, the camber will be directly
affected. Alignment specifications are set for OE standard
tires, which are not available o for most of our LBCâ??s these
days.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Unless
there are bad suspension components or misadjusted wheel
bearings, Â the handling condition is completely indicative
 of incorrect alignment.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I
had a local alignment guy who did alignments for Rocky
Mountain Vintage Racers, and he could set up 4 wheel
alignment to handle any way the driver wanted â?? understeer â??
oversteer â?? neutral.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Depending
on the type of suspension, each setup by suspension type is
different.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">TR250â??s
have full IRS, so rear toe / camber is just as important as
the front. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Front
toe in adds to the eagerness of the turn, rear toe in adds
to the quickness to rotate into a turn.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Camber
affects how the tire contacts the road surface. Too much
negative camber and you product oversteer.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Combine
with incorrect toe in and negative camber and the car feels
like it is on ice or ball bearings<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">My
Stags were like that, so was my TR250. Â The Stag uses
Struts, the TR250 uses A Arms. Â I had my guy set the camber
and toe front and rear at the edge of the specs between
neutral and oversteer handling, and they now ride like they
are on rails, solid as a rock, yet responsive and
predictive. Â <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Glenn
Merrell <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">+1
(303) 817-8559 mobile<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">aka
StagByTriumph Garage (<i>now on FaceBook</i>)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Remember,
â??the BEST trophies are: Miles on the Odometer; Stone chips
in the paint; and DEAD BUGS on the windscreen â?¦ with the
occasional smell of manure!â??<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
Triumphs [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:triumphs-bounces@autox.team.net";>mailto:triumphs-bounces@autox.team.net</a>]
<b>On
Behalf Of </b><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:ptegler@verizon.net";>ptegler@verizon.net</a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, June 28, 2016 8:49 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:dave1massey@cs.com";>dave1massey@cs.com</a>; <a
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:triumphs@autox.team.net";>triumphs@autox.team.net</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [TR] TR250 handling
question<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">pure
rubish. Plain and simple they screwed up your alignment
as it was before. <br>
Just replacing the rack has nothing to do with alignment
(other than initial adjustment of course) Camber and
caster, alignment and wheel balance = tracking<br>
They simply have not gotten your alignment etc anywhere
near where it was before.<br>
<br>
why did they say you needed a new steering rack? Recent
accident? (major shock/jolt)Â over 50-80K miles of rough
roads since last serviced? <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Â <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Â <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Â <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Paul
Tegler<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ptegler@verizon.net";>ptegler@verizon.net</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.teglerizer.com";>www.teglerizer.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Â <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">On
06/28/16, Dave<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:dave1massey@cs.com";>dave1massey@cs.com</a><span
class="misspelled">></dave1massey@
wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Â <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">That
sounds like the caster adjustment is out. TR3's have
zero caster and I am forever correcting the steering to
keep it in the lane.</span><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Dave
Massey</span><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">-----Original
Message-----<br>
From: Pat Fischer <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:pfischer@rmi.net";
target="_blank">pfischer@rmi.net</a>><br>
To: triumph list list <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:triumphs@autox.team.net";
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Sent: Mon, Jun 27, 2016 2:58 pm<br>
Subject: [TR] TR250 handling question<br>
<br>
Hello, Listers. Hoping for your expertise here.<br>
<br>
Took the 250 to a local shop for some small body
repair and new tires. <br>
Handling of the car has always been superb with
wider-than-stock wheels <br>
and low profile tires, but the two of the tires were
15 years old, so a <br>
rubber update was needed. The shop also told me that
the car also needed <br>
a new steering rack and tie rod ends. They did this,
set alignment and <br>
lubed the front end.<br>
<br>
First getting the car back, the car vibrated at 70 on
the highway. Shop <br>
says they've fixed that with re-balancing the tires.
(I haven't driven <br>
it yet.)<br>
<br>
Next, the car feels skittish, jittery at 50-60 mph,
and you have to keep <br>
correcting with steering to keep it straight in its
lane. You'll be <br>
driving along just fine and then Whoops! there is goes
twitching left a <br>
bit. It doesn't feel stuck to the road as before this
work was done. <br>
Here's the question: the shop tells us that this is
normal after <br>
replacing the steering rack, that "the car is more
responsive," in their <br>
words, and has "a more immediate feel to it," but they
also reference <br>
this as "twitchy-ness."<br>
<br>
What should expectations be upon replacing steering
rack and tie-rod ends?<br>
<br>
Many thanks,<br>
<br>
Pat Fischer<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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