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Tom
You raise some interesting points.
Yes, British pride at Rootes and the British auto union was probably a =
major factor.
=20
We all have a tendency to refer to Shelby and Shelby American as being =
the same; that in itself can become confusing; we need to be more =
specific with our words.
=20
We lose track of the backstory or the truth that George and a few others =
were the people responsible for making the Shelby Tiger Prototype. It =
is very difficult today to say how involved Shelby was with the project. =
His main concern at the time was the Cobra, Cobra racing and good PR.
=20
Your question about sending rolling chassis to the USA is a good one. =
My guess is Shelby would have tried to support that since he was doing =
that with the Cobra but I think Rootes was looking for more production =
capabilities with sooner delivery of production cars for sale. =
Packaging and shipping a rolling chassis would be more expensive than =
shipping engine assemblies.=20
=20
Ron Fraser
=20
From: Tom Witt [mailto:atwittsend@verizon.net]=20
Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2016 5:50 PM
To: Ron Fraser <rfraser@bluefrog.com>; 'Teepen, Jere' =
<jteepen@usatoday.com>; tigers@Autox.Team.Net
Subject: Re: [Tigers] Shelby as Sunbeam Tiger manufacturer?
=20
I wonder if national pride had any consideration with Shelby not =
assembling the cars? That being the Tiger being seen more as an =
American hot rod, than a British sports car? From what I heard in =
George Boskoff=E2=80=99s talk it seemed more like the Tiger prototype =
was assigned to Boskoff to =E2=80=98figure out=E2=80=99 by himself. If =
there was a major issue (like bending the steering arms) he would bounce =
the matter off Shelby. So, while the Shelby name is associated with the =
Tiger Shelby himself seemed to have little to do with the car. When the =
prototype was completed there were no drawings etc. with Boskoff only =
mentioning he had =E2=80=9Ca few templates.=E2=80=9D It kind of leads =
one to question just how interested Shelby really was.
=20
Another thing to consider is; is it cheaper to send an American =
engine/trans to England - only to send it right back in a complete =
car..., or to send rolling, but non-powered cars and all the transport =
logistics (and cost) that would require? =20
=20
BTW, the past five or so posts I=E2=80=99ve made to the list, over a =
number of months, have not appeared. This even with deleting the Tigers =
list information at the bottom and sending as plain text. So, this may =
only appear if Ron or Jere reply back to the list.
Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2016 8:03 AM
Subject: Re: [Tigers] Shelby as Sunbeam Tiger manufacturer?
=20
According to TBON both the Shelby and Miles Alpine V-8s were Series II. =
The Jensen Project Prototype was a Series III.
=20
G. Robson Book =E2=80=93 my guess is Shelby wanted to change the =
steering rack position and the front suspension geometry. I also =
believe the next concern was the rear axle and suspension. These seem =
to have been his main concerns and there were probably others. Funny, =
the same ones we have today. Maybe a look at the race Tigers would give =
more hints about the direction he envisioned. Remember $10,000 for the =
Shelby Alpine V-8 only goes so far and Rootes was not interested in =
making major, read that expensive changes to the Alpine platform.
=20
Ron Fraser
=20
mailto:tigers-bounces@autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Teepen, Jere via =
Tigers
Sent: Friday, June 10, 2016 6:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Tigers] Shelby as Sunbeam Tiger manufacturer?
=20
I have no knowledge about the changes Shelby may have made if production =
had gone that way, but from what I recall, the first V-8 Alpines were =
Series 2 (Ken Miles) and 3 (Shelby).=20
=20
I am now curious too, has there been any information as to what Shelby =
may have proposed?
=20
mailto:tigers-bounces@autox.team.net] On Behalf Of J Clark via Tigers
Sent: Friday, June 10, 2016 12:14 AM
Subject: [Tigers] Shelby as Sunbeam Tiger manufacturer?
=20
=20
Was reading the Tiger Wikipedia and the reference (citing the G. Robson =
book, "Sunbeam Alpine and Tiger- The complete Story")=20
to Carroll Shelby's initial desire to build the car. Though I do own a =
copy of this book I must admit that this is news to me.=20
Upon reading what Robson wrote, it still left me with a couple of =
questions. Do any of you folks know what Shelby, according to
Robson, had in mind when he proposed "radical modification of the =
Alpine's structure and chassis"? One wonders how things may
have played out in the big scheme of things if Rootes had given Shelby =
the gig, rather than Jensen.
=20
Graham Robson also makes reference to some of the prototypes being built =
with SIII body shells. I believe this is hogwash,
leading me to question the veracity of the rest of the book's contents.
=20
One more thing. Is my punctuation in this text coming through legibly?=20
=20
=
Regards,
=
Jon
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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US =
link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72"><div class=3DWordSection1><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Tom<o:p></o:p=
></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
You raise some interesting points.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Yes, British =
pride at Rootes and the British auto union was probably a major =
factor.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </=
o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>We all have =
a tendency to refer to Shelby and Shelby American as being the same; =
that in itself can become confusing; we need to be more specific with =
our words.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </=
o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>We lose =
track of the backstory or the truth that George and a few others were =
the people responsible for making the Shelby Tiger Prototype.=C2=A0 It =
is very difficult today to say how involved Shelby was with the =
project.=C2=A0=C2=A0 His main concern at the time was the Cobra, Cobra =
racing and good PR.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </=
o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Your =
question about sending rolling chassis to the USA is a good =
one.=C2=A0=C2=A0 <b>My guess</b> is Shelby would have tried to support =
that since he was doing that with the Cobra but I think Rootes was =
looking for more production capabilities with sooner delivery of =
production cars for sale.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Packaging and shipping a rolling =
chassis would be more expensive than shipping engine assemblies. =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </=
o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Ron =
Fraser<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </=
o:p></span></p><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span><=
/b><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> =
Tom Witt [mailto:atwittsend@verizon.net] <br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, June =
12, 2016 5:50 PM<br><b>To:</b> Ron Fraser <rfraser@bluefrog.com>; =
'Teepen, Jere' <jteepen@usatoday.com>; =
tigers@Autox.Team.Net<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Tigers] Shelby as Sunbeam =
Tiger manufacturer?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>I wonder if =
national pride had any consideration with Shelby not assembling the =
cars? That being the Tiger being seen more as an American hot rod, =
than a British sports car? From what I heard in George =
Boskoff=E2=80=99s talk it seemed more like the Tiger prototype was =
assigned to Boskoff to =E2=80=98figure out=E2=80=99 by himself. If there =
was a major issue (like bending the steering arms) he would bounce the =
matter off Shelby. So, while the Shelby name is associated with the =
Tiger Shelby himself seemed to have little to do with the car. When the =
prototype was completed there were no drawings etc. with Boskoff only =
mentioning he had =E2=80=9Ca few templates.=E2=80=9D It kind of leads =
one to question just how interested Shelby really =
was.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'> <o:p></o:p><=
/span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>Another thing to =
consider is; is it cheaper to send an American engine/trans to England - =
only to send it right back in a complete car..., or to send rolling, but =
non-powered cars and all the transport logistics (and cost) that would =
require? <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'> <o:p></o:p><=
/span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>BTW, the past =
five or so posts I=E2=80=99ve made to the list, over a number of months, =
have not appeared. This even with deleting the Tigers list information =
at the bottom and sending as plain text. So, this may only appear if Ron =
or Jere reply back to the =
list.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'background:whitesmoke'><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black'>Fr=
om:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black'> =
</span><a href=3D"mailto:tigers@autox.team.net"; =
title=3D"tigers@autox.team.net"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'>Ron Fraser =
via Tigers</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black'> =
<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'background:whitesmoke'><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black'>Se=
nt:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black'> =
Saturday, June 11, 2016 8:03 AM<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'background:whitesmoke'><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black'>To=
:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black'> =
</span><a href=3D"mailto:jteepen@usatoday.com"; =
title=3D"jteepen@usatoday.com"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'>'Teepen, =
Jere'</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black'> =
; </span><a href=3D"mailto:tigers@Autox.Team.Net"; =
title=3D"tigers@Autox.Team.Net"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'>tigers@Autox.T=
eam.Net</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black'> =
<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'background:whitesmoke'><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black'>Su=
bject:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black'> =
Re: [Tigers] Shelby as Sunbeam Tiger =
manufacturer?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'> <o:p></o:p><=
/span></p></div></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>A=
ccording to TBON both the Shelby and Miles Alpine V-8s were Series =
II. The Jensen Project Prototype was a Series =
III.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:black'> </span><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'><=
o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>G=
. Robson Book =E2=80=93 <b>my guess</b> is Shelby wanted to change the =
steering rack position and the front suspension geometry. I also =
believe the next concern was the rear axle and suspension. These =
seem to have been his main concerns and there were probably =
others. Funny, the same ones we have today. Maybe a look at =
the race Tigers would give more hints about the direction he =
envisioned. Remember $10,000 for the Shelby Alpine V-8 only goes =
so far and Rootes was not interested in making major, read that =
expensive changes to the Alpine platform.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:black'> </span><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'><=
o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>R=
on Fraser<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:black'> </span><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'><=
o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid =
#E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>F=
rom:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'> =
Tigers [</span><a href=3D"mailto:tigers-bounces@autox.team.net";><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>mailto:tigers=
-bounces@autox.team.net</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>]=
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Teepen, Jere via Tigers<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, =
June 10, 2016 6:31 PM<br><b>To:</b> J Clark <</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:icanhandyman@yahoo.com";><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>icanhandyman@=
yahoo.com</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>&=
gt;; </span><a href=3D"mailto:tigers@autox.team.net";><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>tigers@autox.=
team.net</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'><=
br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Tigers] Shelby as Sunbeam Tiger =
manufacturer?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>I have no knowledge about the changes Shelby may have made if =
production had gone that way, but from what I recall, the first V-8 =
Alpines were Series 2 (Ken Miles) and 3 (Shelby). =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:black'> </span><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>I am now curious too, has there been any information as to what Shelby =
may have proposed?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:black'> </span><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid =
#E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>F=
rom:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'> =
Tigers [</span><a href=3D"mailto:tigers-bounces@autox.team.net";><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>mailto:tigers=
-bounces@autox.team.net</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>]=
<b>On Behalf Of </b>J Clark via Tigers<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, June 10, =
2016 12:14 AM<br><b>To:</b> </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:tigers@autox.team.net";><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>tigers@autox.=
team.net</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'><=
br><b>Subject:</b> [Tigers] Shelby as Sunbeam Tiger =
manufacturer?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div =
id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1465537966360_4139"><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'>&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div =
id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1465537966360_4144"><div =
id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1465537966360_4163"><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'>W=
as reading the Tiger Wikipedia and the reference (citing the G. Robson =
book, "Sunbeam Alpine and Tiger- The complete Story") =
<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div =
id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1465537966360_4347"><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'>t=
o Carroll Shelby's initial desire to build the car. Though I do own a =
copy of this book I must admit that this is news to me. =
<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div =
id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1465537966360_4519"><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'>U=
pon reading what Robson wrote, it still left me with a couple of =
questions. Do any of you folks know what Shelby, according =
to<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div =
id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1465537966360_4674"><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'>R=
obson, had in mind when he proposed "radical modification of the =
Alpine's structure and chassis"? One wonders how things =
may<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div =
id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1465537966360_4726"><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'>h=
ave played out in the big scheme of things if Rootes had given Shelby =
the gig, rather than Jensen.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div =
id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1465537966360_4626"><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'background:white'><span =
style=3D'color:black'> </span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'><=
o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div =
id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1465537966360_4798"><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'>G=
raham Robson also makes reference to some of the prototypes being built =
with SIII body shells. I believe this is =
hogwash,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div =
id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1465537966360_4919"><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'>l=
eading me to question the veracity of the rest of the book's =
contents.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div =
id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1465537966360_5077"><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'background:white'><span =
style=3D'color:black'> </span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'><=
o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div =
id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1465537966360_5076"><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'>O=
ne more thing. Is my punctuation in this text coming through legibly? =
<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div =
id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1465537966360_5145"><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'background:white'><span =
style=3D'color:black'> </span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'><=
o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div =
id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1465537966360_5146"><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'>&=
nbsp; &n=
bsp; &nb=
sp; &nbs=
p;  =
; =
&=
nbsp; =
Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div =
id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1465537966360_5154"><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'>&=
nbsp; &n=
bsp; &nb=
sp; &nbs=
p;  =
; =
&=
nbsp; =
Jon<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></body=
></html>
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