----- Original Message -----
From: Tim Ronak
To: timothy.ronak@akzo-nobel.com
Sent: Thursday, June 03, 1999 8:31 AM
Subject: Fw: Bob palmer sparkplug fiasco
----- Original Message -----
From: Tim Ronak
To: Bob Palmer
Cc: Tiger News Group Address
Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 1999 4:24 PM
Subject: Re: Bob palmer sparkplug fiasco
Robert,
The Info i gave is accurate and if you would like I could create electronic
versions of the graphs as the only data i have is what was printed out of
the dyno printer. When i have time which may not be too soon i will be sure
to key that stuff in although it is a small block chevy. One point that
astounded me is that you are running 50 degrees of advance with your small
block ford (Can you say P-P-Ping and good bye plugs). That would create a
significant amount of detonation. As i grew up cash challenged in order to
go fast I had to learn all of this stuff myself and I have a suggestion. I t
would seem that your "factory??" distributor has too much timing built into
it to run at the stock 6 degree advance setting and still achieve aroun
36-38 degrees total timing for performance use. Most of the performance
engines I have played with ..Ford , Chevy, and Chrsley (SP) all liked
between 37-40 Total timing. With the stock distributor having soooo much
timing built in to it (about 32 = 38degrees - 6degrees) in order to limit
the total timing we need to set the initial really low which definitely
impairs throttle response and low RPM performance. Having more initial
timing really helps make the engine FEEL more responsive but it is bad if at
high RPM the engine rattles it's brains out. One of the tips that I have
used is to get the stock distributor recurved to permit 13-16 degrees of
initial with only about 21-22 degrees of timing built into the distributor
itself. This would allow an initial timing of say 16 degrees and limit total
to around 37-38 degrees. (16 initial plus 22in the distributor would give us
38 total) We found that he extra timing beyond 39 degrees total did not help
horse power as the detonation that it generated started to erode the any
gains low down in RPM. Our small block liked 39 degrees the best with 16
initial. The other key is to get the distributor to get all of the timing
(at least 17-18 degrees of distributor advance) in mostly by 3000 RPM with
maybe 2 or 3 degrees coming in from 3000-6000 RPM. I am not sure where you
live but you should have a performance shop that still understands the
basics and has a good distributor machine. In order to limit the total
internal advance it may be necessary to weld a little on the distributor to
limit the travel for the advance mechanism and then file it out until you
achieve the amount of advance rotation required.
Of course this is all of a mute point if that broken timing light stays
broken. (Get one with the advance knob to facilitate the total timing
adjustment.)
Regards,
Tim Ronak
B382000680
from the frozen North
timinvan@fox.nstn.ca
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Palmer
To: Tim Ronak
Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 1999 10:55 AM
Subject: RE: Bob palmer sparkplug fiasco
Tim,
Thanks so much for taking the time to send me all this great info. You
Canadians never cease to amaze me!! I recently found out from Dick Barker
that my intake isn't an F4B, but the Benevides Cobra high rise, although it
says "Shelby" instead of "Cobra" or "Tiger" as some others do. I think this
is a case of old bad information getting fossilized in my brain. I've had
this intake since ca. '75 or so and I believe someone told me at that time
it was "the same as" an Edelbrock F4B, but can't remember for sure. It is a
high rise and a similar design to the F4B; perhaps not quite as good, but
definitely better than the Tiger "low rise" version. Anyway, it's clear
these two cylinders have been getting some abuse and I think I have an idea
what at least part of the problem is. Not too long ago I bumped the timing
up a few degrees without even checking it with a timing light (mine's
broken) and it was running fine until I uncorked it, and then at full
throttle it started making bad noises that, in retrospect, were most likely
#1 & #8 pre-detonating. I'm presuming this is what damaged the plugs in
these cylinders; at least it makes a good story. The symmetry of #1 & #8
seems too coincidental not to be a symptom of some flow pattern effect
causing these two to maybe be the leanest, or possibly the best volumetric
efficiency, or some such thing. Anyway, I have already replaced the #66 jets
with #68's. And, of course, backed off on the timing. BTW, I have 351W
heads, and these heads take a lot more advance than I'm used to. When I
first put them on, I set the advance by ear and went out driving. Later,
when I checked it with a timing light I found I had 50 degrees total
advance!! I always ran about 36 degrees with the 289 heads. I find the 351W
runs best at about 40-45 degrees total, and I have it set right now to 44
degrees, with 14 degrees initial. I guess I should really run it on a dyno
and really find out exactly where it should be, but I will back off a bit
more from where I am and see how it feels. Fortunately I have stainless
valves and hardened inserts and forged TRW pop-up pistons (that give me
10.9:1 compression), that can handle some abuse.
Back in '66 I bought a Malibu with a 327. Bone stock except for stripping
out all the smog crap and put in an earlier distributor. Used to enjoy
beating up on all sorts of Fords with that car. Then I got a Ford pickup and
a mechanic friend of mine who had worked both for Ford and Chevy kind of
steered me toward Ford power. I rebuilt a 390 for the truck and kind of got
the engine building bug. Some time later I got the inspiration to buy a
Tiger; got one off a lot for $1600. That was 1970. I've had the car ever
since. BTW, do you know about a book titled "Old Tractors and the Men Who
Love Them" by Roger Welsch? A close friend just gave me a copy recently.
It's a great book for us gear-heads. I think you might enjoy it too.
Being primarily an experimentalist, I really appreciate the real dyno DATA
you have to support your claims. Your results are pretty much what I
expected, although I had been a little bit skeptical of any significant
effect of indexing; at least compared to running a bigger gap. Like you say;
Race Motto #2 "Yeah, yeah, Sure Sure!!" Thanks for the tip about the NGK
V-power plugs. How do these relate to the $6.50 apiece NGK WR5VX's that Bill
Martin is using (in three motors no less ;-) ? Are these the ones? I'll run
these Autolite 124's for awhile and maybe replace them with NGK's later.
Thanks a bunch for the instructions about indexing the plugs. Last time I
rebuilt my engine, along with a bunch of other stuff, I order an "indexing"
tool. Didn't right away see how to use it; now I know. Thanks. Next set I
put in will be indexed.
As to where to put your MSD unit, I have mine behind the firewall on the
passenger side, mounted on the bottom of the structural box that's directly
behind the glove box. I run the wires through with the rest of the cabling
near the starter solenoid. I was concerned some about adequate ventilation,
but after about 15 years of service, I guess I can safely say it's OK.
Regarding your stock tachometer, it uses an inductive pickup, so it needs a
fair amount of current to run it. You can use several loops instead of the
single loop that's standard. I suspect that if you try and run it with the
tach output of the MSD it won't work. The MSD is probably set up for a
voltage rather than current sensitive pickup; i.e., high impedance. For
quite awhile I was using 4 or 5 turns in series with the MSD unit and that
worked fine. The stock tach has a couple of problems; it only goes to 5500
rpm and the circuit is pretty temperature sensitive. The latter problem can
be solved with newer transistors. See the tech tips on Mark Olson's Web
site:
http://www.corpdemo.com/tiger/
for some help in rebuilding the tach. I now have a 8000 rpm Smiths Cobra
V8 tach that looks almost stock and is very accurate and reliable. It takes
a whole different type of input than the Tiger tach though.
Well, sure nice hearing from you Tim. And thanks again for all your help.
Best regards,
Bob
Robert L. Palmer
UCSD, Dept. of AMES
rpalmer@ucsd.edu
rpalmer@cts.com
619-822-1037 (o)
760-599-9927 (h)
-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Ronak [mailto:timinvan@fox.nstn.ca]
Sent: Monday, May 31, 1999 2:02 PM
To: Tiger News Group Address
Cc: rpalmer@cts.com
Subject: Bob palmer sparkplug fiasco
Bob Palmer,
DO FORDS RUN SOME CYLINDERS LEAN?????
Rob what intake do you have? It sounds like it may be running some
cylinders leaner than others.
The only time I ever lost electrodes racing over 15 years was when I had
a severe lean condition (the nitrous fuel enrichment lines got plugged) and
it torched a couple of exhaust valves and ate all of the inner from the
plugs...porcelin, electrode and all. If you haven't already i would fatten
up the jets 2 sizes. or you can do the old drag racer deal...put new plugs
in a warm engine back it out of the garage and go for a 1/4 mile full
throttle blast and pull three plugs out 1, 8, and one other and read the
plugs for color, compare them to each other and jet accordingly.
To answer your other questions:
I have tried a number of things when it comes to sparkplugs and have
actually tried to dyno the differences on an engine Dyno in Calgary. The
results were on a 12:1 Bow Tie small block Chevy 350 with Brodix heads that
made 620 Horse naturally aspirated (I hope you Ford guys don't crusify me I
ate enough crow from my buddies about buying a FORD powered Tiger). We tried
several of the myths, larger gap, big spark, Splitfire plugs, V-power plugs,
MSD, we even tried an Electromotive fully adjustable ingnition with
adjustable spark curves and individual coils for each cylinder with a crank
trigger. Rather than "ralph" with a bunch of data, we found that the MSD
helped with low speed throttle response but made only marginal if any gain
in horsepower over 4000 RPM. The variances that were observed were below the
margin of error for the dyno and as such could not confirm or deny claims
for more power with the split fire plugs. We did see better low RPM
drivability with the MSD and a stock recurved HEI to 8500 RPM. The result
was 620 horse, 585 ft lbs. of torque with a recurved factory HEI with a coil
eliminator kit a MSD Blaster II coil and an MSD 6T with a rev control with
NGK V-Power plugs. We raced very successfully with this set up for 5 years
with zero failures. Many things could explain our results but I am confidant
that sometimes the hype is just that ...
Race Motto #2 "Yeah, yeah, Sure Sure!!"
The system was Cheap, reliable and bulletproof!!!
This may not be applicable to a Ford small block but based on my
previous dyno experience I am going to run a MSD Blaster II coil, an MSD 6T
with a rev control and I am hoping to run the stock distibutor with an
igniter points replacement kit or an MSD billet distributor (It will plug
into the MSD 6T). I will index my plugs (Indexing plugs works) with a big
gap and use NGK V-power plugs as I found that it tended to ensure all plugs
burned about the same and it seemed to help on the dyno (4-6 Horse over
stock AC but - Split-Fire did not do any better!?!?). If anyone knows if the
MSD will blow up my factory Tiger Tach please let me know as i don't want to
grenade a rare piece if I can help it. Or if you have suggestions as to how
i can install the MSD (Where to hide it) i would appreciate comments.
PS: There is an easy way to index plugs. Get a nut that the plugs thread
into. Then find the plugs that install in the correct position with the gap
down for each cylinder. remove each plug from the engine and thread into the
nut until tight. note the location of the electrode and engrave the nut with
the cylinder number at the index point. This allows you to index the plugs
at the auto parts counter with out having to buy 10 plugs. note that some of
the cylinders will index the same so you may only need 4-5 different
indexing points.
Regards,
Tim Ronak
Cochrane, Alberta
Canada
timinvan@fox.nstn.ca
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