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RE: Here Comes the VIN Judge!

To: "'Steve Laifman'" <laifman@flash.net>
Subject: RE: Here Comes the VIN Judge!
From: Bob Palmer <rpalmerbob@email.msn.com>
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 19:56:10 -0800
Steve, et al.,

My thanks also for your posting of the pertinent California statutes.  I 
had been thinking we needed a little lesson in California penal code.  I've 
been a bit out of touch with the list for a few days, so I may have missed 
a few important postings on this subject.   But, for me it seems relatively 
silly on the face of it to argue about whether temporarily removing and 
replacing the ID plate is illegal.  Certainly, the intent of the law has to 
do with changing the ID, for which the evidence of removal is but a clue. 
Many of us know personally of cases where Tiger and Alpine ID's have been 
swapped, and the Tiger junked under the Alpine alias.  The question I'm 
concerned about (although not all that much) is whether this practice is 
illegal, or perhaps better put, ever legal.  Some claim yes and some claim 
no.  I'm going to carefully read and consider the code you posted and see 
what I personally think it really means.  At first blush, however, it's 
hard to see how an out-and-out swap of ID's could be construed as anything 
but fraud.  It's kind of like the issue of conspiracy versus committing the 
actual crime.  If your actions are all consistent with the intent to rob a 
bank, then, altogether, they constitute a criminal act; at least as far as 
I understand the concept.  Why would anyone swithch ID's if they did not 
intend to deceive??  Granted, no monetary damage is done until the car is 
sold.  But one can safely assume that most Tigers will be sold eventually. 
 A very gray area is just how much of the original car needs to be 
retained; a 2" border around the ID plate??  Oh, by the way Steve, I also 
appreciated your relating what your dad said about people who know what 
their gas mileage is.  Not only a good chuckle, but something to really 
ponder.

Best regards,

Bob Palmer
B9472134, SHO, etc.

-----Original Message-----
From:   Steve Laifman [SMTP:laifman@flash.net]
Sent:   Monday, January 26, 1998 4:47 AM
To:     Marc James Small
Cc:     tigers@autox.team.net; Laifman, Jay
Subject:        Re: Here Comes the VIN Judge!



Marc James Small wrote:

> Steve
>
> Wonderful posting.  Please note that each one of the statutes cited 
imposes
> criminal liability ONLY if the change of the identification numbers 
(NOTE:
> NOT VIN plate) is for a fraudulent purpose.  I did not see anything 
saying
> that you could not remove the data plate or ID number tag for routine
> repairs or repainting.
>
> Marc
>
> msmall@roanoke.infi.net  FAX:  +540/343-7315
> Cha robh bas fir gun ghras fir!

Marc,

Thank you for your kind response. I do think, however, that the burden of
proof on intent is on the owner if the DMV "believes" that "tampering" has
occurred. The inspection of the ID (which is NOW called the VIN) is on the
regulation inspection forms. I know what the Constitution says, but since 
when
does the DMV recognize a higher authority?
{8->

Steve


--
Steve Laifman         < One first kiss,       >
B9472289              < one first love, and   >
                      < one first win, is all >
                      < you get in this life. >


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