Dave,
Boy you said it all, maybe now someone will listen, yes flying there
would have been the the way, even though I drove as well as flew home
for my daughters graduation.
This trip was expensive indeed, I am happy I did not miss the special
cars...
Norm, well what else can we say, you did a SUPER job, and the CONCOURSE
that you had worked so hard on, and as Dave said, the best most accurate
judging ever, was snatched from your hands, just days before the event,
by some very very influetial and powerful people indeed...
Oh well what a few can do...
But KUDOS to YA' Norm, could not be better than what you did...
Check out his web page for a great story as well...
See Ya' Jan...................
Dave McDermott wrote:
> Paul R. and all,
>
> Congratulations to Norm on bringing together many of the most
> historic cars and personalities in one place. I still cannot believe
> he
> pulled it off. I am sure it took most of his time which unfortunately
> probably reduced the time he could spend on other parts of the event.
> I
> thought the autocross was very well organized and laid out and the
> rally was
> full of gimmicks for those who like such things and covered some
> beautiful
> scenery. The quiz was challenging but caused a review of the whole
> Tiger
> library which was good.
> The "Concours" as it was called was the most disappointing
> aspect of
> the event.
> First on the issue of the Harrington it sounds as if it is a
> matter
> of who defines stock. I would normally think that meant only vehicles
> that
> were mass produced and offered for sale through the dealer network and
> as
> advertised to the public. I thought the definition of stock for United
>
> precluded body modifications. As you stated below the coachwork on the
>
> Harrington is different than a normal mass produced Tiger. Therefore
> you
> must be concluding that if the body modifications to a Tiger body
> shell were
> done under a factory authorized contract with Harrington for example
> then
> that is different than if an owner does them. If that is true then the
>
> LeMans cars whose body modifications were contracted with Lister
> should also
> qualify for the stock class since they also started out as Tiger or
> Alpine
> shells. I see very little difference in the concept. Then if Dick
> Barker and
> Sid Silverman entered their cars in the stock class there would be no
> trophies left for the stock mass produced Tigers. I think it is very
> probable that in any form of judging a one-off or three-off factory
> prototype car is going to win over an equally prepared mass produced
> Tiger.
> Does that sound fair to the entrants and will that encourage anyone to
>
> prepare a really stock Tiger to concours specs? I really think those
> cars
> are demonstration cars at a Tiger event. Please do not read me wrong.
> Bill's
> car is superb and a former Pebble Beach winner and is deserving of
> awards
> but in my opinion it just is not any competition for a mass produced
> stock
> Tiger and should not be in that class.
> On the issue of judging I believe the event was a joke. I have
> also
> been a concours chair at a Tiger event and know the problems
> recruiting
> qualified judges but that IS the responsibility of the chair in
> addition to
> training the judges, setting clear objective measurements, location
> arrangements and trophies. If the checklist of items is clear then the
>
> judges can review a car fairly quickly and I do not believe it takes
> 30
> judges to do 60 cars in a reasonable time. It is done with far fewer
> judges
> at many events across the country. I do not know why most of the
> judges quit
> after the first class at Tahoe but something must have been said that
> caused
> that. To expect the entrants to judge their competitors in an
> objective and
> consistent fashion is ridiculous. The entrants have varying knowledge
> levels
> of what is correct and original and have a definite vested interest.
> Furthermore absolutely no instruction was given to the entrant/judges
> as to
> how much to deduct or add for certain items. Therefore if for example
> a car
> in the stock class had an incorrect gauge should the allotted points
> for
> interior be reduced by a half point, one point or 5 points. I suspect
> various cars were very inconsistently judged just because of lack of
> direction. The method chosen for judging simply turned the event into
> a show
> and shine not a concours. It also meant all the entrants did not have
> much
> time to look at cars other than the ones they were assigned to judge.
> Finally my last issue deals with the criteria on which the
> cars were
> judged. Criteria was published on the net for many months in advance
> of the
> event. Some of us spent many hours and dollars bringing cars up to
> those
> specs. One could not wait until the last minute to start that process.
> While
> those specs were not perfect they were the best set of specs I have
> seen in
> my 30 years of Tiger ownership to judge a stock Tiger and far better
> than
> the ones used. I think anyone who viewed the published specs realized
> that
> the personalized and modified Tigers would have to be judged
> differently.
> The chair should have cleared those specs with all the necessary
> parties
> before they were published and the powers to be should have inquired
> about
> them much earlier. To drop those specs at the last minute after cars
> were
> prepared was totally unfair to the entrants. Instead a different set
> of
> specs could have been developed or the old United specs used only for
> the
> personalized or modified classes and leave the stock class as
> published. A
> decision to use different criteria for two classes would not have
> caused any
> variation in the Lord Rootes award since the concourse was worth 200
> points
> based on where a car ended up in its class irrespective of the specs
> used to
> judge that class. Some might argue that preparing a car to the
> published
> specs should have helped even under the substituted rules. That is
> true for
> some things but many would not have even been noticed in the lazy way
> the
> judging was done. How many entrants noticed the Ford lettering on the
> starter that is only visible under the car? Did the one judging the
> engine
> compartment look under the engine area for that lettering? The
> decision to
> change specs was made so late that even if one wanted it was too late
> to
> cancel bringing a car to the event.
> I for one would not even have prepared and brought a car 1500
> miles
> to what amounted to a show and shine. I can do that locally almost any
>
> weekend at home. Because of the cost of traveling that far with a car
> I
> would have taken a flight into Eureka as just seeing the historic cars
>
> together was worth the entry fee. I really thought the concours would
> be a
> fair objective comparison of some of the best true stock Tigers in the
>
> country and wanted to contribute toward that. It fell far short of
> that.
> My point in all this is one of fairness to the entrants. In
> the
> future please let us all know far in advance what the rules are and
> stick to
> them, how the judging will be conducted and the definitions of what
> cars are
> eligible to enter which classes. That way we can make an informed
> decision
> about entering the concours and bringing a car thousands of miles.
> Anyway
> since you raised the issue again that's my two cents.
>
> Dave McDermott
> AHP483B and other Tigers
>
> At 03:37 AM 7/3/97 -0400, PLRRESTO@aol.com wrote:
> >All,
> >
> >As the TUXXII chair, I thought it best that I simply stay out of this
>
> >discussion of the Concour as my position would hardly seem impartial.
> But
> >since a few points were never brought up, I thought I might reopen
> the
> >discussion.
> >
> >First of all, the Harrington Tiger. Bill Van Velkinburg has been
> showing
> >this car in the stock class for as long as I can remember. And, for
> as long
> >as I can remember, no one has ever complained about it's
> classification. Why?
> >Because "Harry" is a stock Harrington Tiger. The only thing different
> about
> >this car is it's coachwork. Other than that, this car is as stock as
> they
> >get; original engine, original carb, original oil filter system,
> original
> >radiater, original color scheme, original trim, original style
> battery, etc.,
> >etc., etc. Bill, in fact, has spent a LOT of money and time to bring
> his
> >"Harry" up to what it is today, as close as he can get it to the way
> it was
> >when it left Harrington Coachworks. Personally, I believe this car
> deserves
> >the recognition it gets. If we had put this car in a special vehicle
> class,
> >then people going for Lord Rootes would complain; if we put this car
> in the
> >personalized class, then those people would complain; and the same
> with the
> >modified class.
> >
> >Secondly, the lawn. The idea to use the lawn at the Marina came from
> our
> >contacts in Eureka including the Visiter's Bureau. In December of
> last year,
> >Julie and I scouted the area as did Tom and Bette Hall. At the time,
> we found
> >the lawn to be well maintained and considered this site to be a good
> spot for
> >our activity. Norman and Margi inspected the Marina again in April
> and found
> >no problems. So how were we to know that the grounds personnel were
> going to
> >stop watering the lawn? And how were we to know that the seagulls
> were going
> >to use our site for a potty box? Certainly, if we had known and had
> enough
> >time for the paper work, we would have gone elsewhere.
> >
> >And lastly, the judges. The real issue here is not the judging at
> this event,
> >but is much more far reaching. Remember last year in Bakersfield when
> only
> >cars going for Lord Rootes were judged and the rest were done by
> popular
> >vote. People complained then also. Don't get me wrong, I didn't like
> the way
> >the Eureka concour was done either. I also didn't like the
> Bakersfield
> >concour. But the worst of them all was the concour I chaired in
> Tahoe; that
> >one was a disaster. In Tahoe, I tried to put on a typical concour as
> we know
> >them, with judges judging all the cars etc., etc. What was the
> problem, you
> >say? Simple. No one wants to be a judge and of the few judges I had,
> most
> >were not qualified. Then, everyone gets bored and wants to leave in
> two
> >hours. Add a little afternoon sun and many of the judges won't look
> at more
> >than one class of cars. I've said it before, and I'll say it again -
> it takes
> >30 judges to judge 50-60 cars in two hours and still do a descent
> job. How
> >does that break down? Well, 12 judges for stock, 12 for personalized,
> and 6
> >for modified. In Tahoe, STOA provided 12 judges and CAT none. Seems
> the
> >president told the members at a meeting that judging was STOA's
> problem and
> >besides, who wants to be a judge, it'll ruin your whole day. Of
> course, when
> >we got to the event, the CAT registrants were all pissed off ,
> because
> >judging was biased toward STOA. Most of the judges quite after the
> first
> >class, then I was in a mad rush to find replacements. I ended up with
> close
> >compeditors judging one anothers cars. And where were the qualified
> judges?
> >Well, it seems that people like Terry Taylor, Steve Alcala, Norm
> Miller and
> >others had done this job so many times in the past that they wanted a
> well
> >deserved break. Then, with about 10 cars left to do, people start
> taking off
> >for the rally.
> >
> >All we have seen these past two years is an attempt by the event
> organizers
> >to get though the concour in a shorter period of time, while still
> providing
> >reasonable results, and all the while pissing off the least number of
> people.
> >The way I see it, there is only a small number of people who go to
> these
> >events who care about the concour judging and I quess we've just
> heard from 3
> >of them. Fortunately, events like these aren't planned to please the
> few, but
> >rather to please the many. To that end, I believe Norman and Company
> did an
> >outstanding job considering the opposition within STOA, meager Tiger
> >community support and the use of a new location.
> >
> >But hey! Next year it's going to be even better, right.
> >
> >Til next time - Event Chairman? Who?
> >
> >Paul Reisentz
> >Lame Duck TUXXII Event Chair
> >STOA TAC Chairman
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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