WOW!! What a brain dump. A chime in for the Ford. Your pricing is right
on, although with a little patience and shopping most people should be abe
to find a 302 for cheaper. I scored a long block for $50 (rare, but 100-200
is not uncommon). Mind you they will need to be rebuilt, but I would rather
spend $100 knowing it needs rebuild (and what is done in tha rebuild) than
$500 and be left guessing..
I will try to find a scale strong enough to weight my individual items. I
have already weighed the Stock vs aftermarket intake and found a HUGE weight
savings. Stock 2bbl intake was ~44lbs, Edlebrock 4bbl is 12lbs... Stock
heads are 50lbs each, I heard alums cut that by about 1/2.. I get my alum
h20 pump tonight..
HEY!! WHAT HAS ANYONE DONE IN REGARDS TO MOTOR MOUNTS FOR THE 302!??
Larry
----- Original Message -----
From: <DANMAS@aol.com>
To: <mgb-v8@autox.team.net>
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2000 2:48 PM
Subject: Ford 302 vs BOP/Rover 215
> Listers,
>
> All this talk about Ford vs BOP/R V8s has gotten me to thinking. I've got
> about 15 minutes before all this thinking puts me to sleep, so I thought
I'd
> try to summarize my thoughts before I nod off.
>
> The Ford engine in my TR6 weighs 436 pounds. That's 12 pounds more than I
> posted recently, because the heavy duty clutch I just received last week
> weighed 12 pounds more then the light duty Ford clutch that I previously
> weighed. That 436 pound weight includes: engine, aluminum heads, valve
> covers, 27 pound flywheel, clutch, intake manifold, carburetor, air
cleaner,
> distributor, alternator, water pump, fan belt, pulleys, lightweight Ford
> MotorSport (FMS) starter, and headers. When I received my crate engine
> long/block assembly, I removed the packing material, weighed it, and
> subtracted that from the freight invoice weight. When I compared that
weight
> to the what I calculated the engine should weigh in that configuration, my
> figures agreed to the pound with the freight invoice, so I believe my
engine
> weight above is reasonably accurate.
>
> According to David Hardcastle, in his book "Tuning Rover V8 Engines,"
Buick
> originally listed the weight of the 215ci aluminum block V8 as 218 pounds,
> while Oldsmobile listed a weight of 350 pounds for basically the same
engine.
> Most sources list the weight of BOP/R engine as 318 to 325 pounds. This
means
> the Ford weighs from 118 to 111 pounds more then the BOP/R engine.
>
> Hmm, this is curious. Comparing the two engines, and assuming a BOP/R
weight
> of 320 pounds, there is a difference of 116 pounds:
>
> Block (- 30 pounds):
>
> The bare BOP/R block is 1/2" shorter, 1 1/2" taller, and 1/8" narrower
then
> the Ford. With heads installed, the BOP/R engine is 1 1/2" wider than the
> Ford with heads installed. The Ford dimensions came from measurements made
on
> a spare engine in my garage, while the BOP/R dimensions came from the
factory
> blueprints that Dan Lagrue was so kind to display at the Cleveland V8 meet
> two weekends ago. The bottom of the BOP/R block extends below the crank
> centerline, while the Ford block ends even with the crank centerline.
>
> The Ford iron block weighs 127 pounds, while the aluminum version of the
same
> block from Ford weighs 97 pounds (per the FMS catalog), for a weight
savings
> of 30 pounds. Comparing the two blocks, the BOP/R will have more material
> than the Ford, so I would assume the BOP/R block would weigh close to the
> Ford. Anyone know the weight for sure? This accounts for 30 pounds of the
> difference.
>
> Front engine dress components (0 pounds):
>
> Both engines have the distributor and oil pump in the front, and are
> basically of the same layout. I would assume, then, that the water pump,
> distributor, timing cover, timing chain, pulleys, etc, would be very near
> equal for both engines, especially if you are using aftermarket
components.
> The Weiand water pump I'm using weighs 7 pounds, as compared to 14 for the
> stock iron pump of the early Ford engines.
>
> Crank (- 10 pounds):
>
> David Hardcastle, in the above referenced book, states that the BOP/R
crank
> weighs 79 pounds. The Ford crank weighs 40 pounds. I find it hard to
believe
> that the BOP/R crank would weigh 39 pounds more than the Ford, so I assume
> Hardcastle was fed erroneous data. However, since the cranks are about the
> same size, I would expect the weight to be similar as well. With a shorter
> stroke, the BOP/R crank might weigh a bit less, so I'll assume it weighs
30
> pounds, so that will account for another 10 pounds of weight difference.
>
> Heads (0 pounds):
>
> Both engines use aluminum heads, of comparable dimensions, so no weight
> difference here.
>
> Cam/valve train (0 pounds):
>
> The cams are virtually the same length, so the weights should be virtually
> the same as well. Same with the valve train.
>
> Piston/Connecting rods (- 8 pounds):
>
> Each piston/conrod/wrist pin/bearings, etc weighs 3 pounds in a Ford.
Given
> the smaller bore and stroke of the BOP/R engine, a weight of 2 pounds per
> would be reasonable, although I really believe the difference would be
less.
> This accounts for 8 pounds of difference.
>
> Flywheel/clutch (0 pounds):
>
> The standard Ford flywheel weighs 40 pounds - the FMS flywheel weighs 27.
A
> 10 1/2" performance clutch weighs 22 pounds, compared to 10 -15 for
lighter
> weight clutches. These items are a matter of choice for either engine, so
no
> weight differences there.
>
> Starter (0 pounds):
>
> The stock BOP/R and Ford starters weigh around 16 pounds. Lightweight
> starters are available for either engine. My FMS starter weighs 11 pounds.
>
> Intake/carburetors (0 pounds):
>
> Using aluminum aftermarket intake manifolds, the weights should be near
the
> same. Both engines typically use the same carburetors - Holley, Carter, or
> Edelbrock, so they will weigh exactly the same.
>
> Alternator (0 pounds):
>
> Most folks use a GM alternator, which is also usable (and preferable) on
the
> Ford. If desired, the stock Lucas alternator could be used on either
engine
> as well, so no weight difference here either.
>
> Costs:
>
> I paid $3,141 for a complete, brand new, 320 HP Ford crate motor, long
block,
> with GT40 aluminum heads and a B303 high performance roller cam. To make
the
> motor complete, I had to add the same items as most would have to add to
the
> BOP/R engine to get it into the desired state of tune - Intake & exhaust,
> starter, alternator, distributor, and clutch. Junkyard engines are
cheaper,
> currently around $1,000 - $1,200 for a late model Ford with fuel
injection,
> and professionally built BOP/R engines can run higher, depending on the
state
> of tune. I would dare say that a BOP/R engine, tuned/modified to produce
over
> 300 HP would cost major coin. Of course, 300+ HP is not really a
requirement,
> but...................why not?
>
> Summary:
>
> Weight:
>
> Based on the above, I can account for 38 - 48 of the 116 pound difference
in
> weight between the two engines. I know that a few ounces here, and a few
> ounces there can add up, but it takes a lot of ounces to make up for the
> missing 68 pounds! Are the BOP/R engines as light as we think they are?
> Where am I missing the pounds? Input and corrections cheerfully and
> gratefully welcomed!
>
> Supposedly, the Rover engine weighed 40 pounds less than the stock
4-banger
> MGB engine, so even if the Ford does weigh 116 pounds more then the BOP/R,
it
> would still only weigh 76 pounds more than stock.
>
> Size:
>
> The difference in size between the blocks is pretty much insignificant.
The
> wider dimension with the heads installed (1 1/2") of the BOP/R is easily
> accommodated in an MGB. The installation of headers might be more
difficult
> for the BOP/R than with the Ford in some makes of cars (TR6, for example),
> because of the extra width.
>
> Costs:
>
> Way too many variables here to make any kind of meaningful comparisons.
> Nevertheless, on a dollar/HP basis, the Ford is the winner, I believe, at
> least as the HP begins to reach the 300 level. At lower power levels, say
> around 150 - 200, the BOP/R might be cheaper, especially if you have to
buy
> aluminum heads to keep the Ford weight down (the aluminum heads reduce the
> weight by 50 pounds). Currently, fully assembled aluminum heads for the
Ford
> cost in the $900 - $1,100 price range, bare heads for around $400 - $500.
> There should be no trouble finding a solid, rebuildable, Ford block for
under
> $500 dollars (I bought one from a '67 Fairlane for $100 - all Ford V8s
after
> '66 use the current bellhousing bolt pattern), bringing the total to under
> $1,600.
>
> Well, it's time for my
nap.....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
>
> Dan Masters
> Alcoa, Tennessee
>
> Triumph TR 250 - TR6 Electrical Maintenance Handbook:
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