Let's ask them to make the self sealing and puncture
resistant to off set the "Track Debris" while we are
asking for our dream tires. wmts
Quoting glen barrett <speedtimer@charter.net>:
> Dave
> I am not claiming to be a tire expert, far from it.
The point I am
> addressing is what I have seen on the salt the last
20 years.
> I agree with you about the lack of tire loading and
ratings not being
> available, but in our specialized type of racing
there are not a lot of
> people beating down our doors to make us racing
tires. The M/T's and
> Goodyear's are what we have. As I stated yesterday
the salt conditions dry
> or wet are a factor in partly how the tire works.
>
> As far as loading and down forces there are vehicles
with high loading. The
> Firebird of Lindsleys & Leggitt had heavy loading and
the ground effects
> along with the body (front) was almost self
destructing. I am glad it
> didn't
> go over 333mph as I think the vehicle would have had
a different ending.
>
> Earl Woodens tire failure was delaminating down the
center of the tire
> resulting in it exploding. The other factor in the
coupe was the engine /
> drive train was on the right side of the vehicle and
in turn had more load
> on the right rear tire. Like I said I am just passing
on lessons learned
> from the past. I wish we had more experts in the tire
world to take an
> interest in our needs and give us safe 500 mph tires.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dave Dahlgren" <ddahlgren@snet.net>
> To: "glen barrett" <speedtimer@charter.net>
> Cc: "Bryan A. Savage Jr"
<basavage@earthlink.net>; "Grib"
> <rgribble@carolina.rr.com>; "List Land Speed" <land-
speed@autox.team.net>
> Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2001 4:30 AM
> Subject: Re: Everybody Knows That Won't Work
>
>
> > Interesting things to think about here!
> > My 2 cents worth from looking around the last 10
years tells me there are
> very
> > few wings at B'ville that make that much down
force. KT would have told
> you
> > about how the car settles down during a run from
down force, well i
> instrumented
> > it this year and the car moved very little probably
on the order of 1/8
> inch.
> > From what I can see of the rules for the most part
real wings are not
> allowed in
> > most classes and a spoiler is for cleaning up air
flow and is not a foil
> that
> > can generate large amounts of down force.
personally i think tire
> failures have
> > more to do with the the weight of the car. Most
tires that I am aware of
> all
> > have both a load rating and a speed rating. I would
also have to think
> that an
> > overloaded tire will have less strength and
therefore a lower speed
> rating
> than
> > one that is not overloaded. I have looked through
the rule book and did
> not find
> > anywhere so far a place that discusses the load
rating of a tire. Does
> anyone
> > think that i could run a Goodyear land speed tire
on a Ford Expedition or
> a GMC
> > Yukon at 200 mph and be ok with handling? or that
the tires would not be
> > overloaded? yet i have heard all about 5000 lb
doorslamers with tires
> like
> these
> > on them. If you really want to get a handle on
tires and failures you
> might want
> > to ask some one how much the car weighs and if the
tires are rated for
> that
> > weight and speed that they are planing on running.
If they have a 5000 lb
> car
> > and small front tires and have 55% front weight you
have a failure
> waiting
> to
> > happen!! I would bet most are severely overloaded.
> > The front runners have no load rating at all listed
on Goodyears site and
> many
> > of the land speed tires are rated for 1200 lbs
others at 1700 lbs with
> one
> > listed at 3000 lbs. I looked at M/T site and there
was nothing listed
> about LSR
> > tires there ...
> > If you really want to put any tire issues behind
yourself you have to
> have
> a
> > tire from a company that will give the recommended
load and speed rating
> and
> > check cars for compliance as part of a safety
inspection. If you look at
> this
> > link
http://www.goodyear.com/us/tires/racing/products/racect1
9.html
> >
> > You will see that all these tires are rated at 300
mph or less at the
> rated load
> > or less load..
> > So if you have a car that goes over 300 on these
tires you have an issue
> to
> > begin with and like i said the front runners don't
even have a rated load
> or
> > speed that I saw so what is safe for those?
> > The other side of this that I would have to ask is
the age of the tires.
> But
> > maybe that is another issue How do cars with
visible checking on the side
> walls
> > even get through inspection? They are there and i
have seen them many
> times!
> > What is the speed load rating after 4 years with a
side wall that is
> checked and
> > how do you separate cosmetic damage from structural
damage?
> >
> > Dave Dahlgren
> > Who personally would not buy a tire without a load
and a speed rating and
> would
> > believe it!
> >
> > glen barrett wrote:
> > >
> > > OK, I sent a reply earlier today and it got lost
in cyberspace along
> the
> > > way. I will try and remember what I
stated.Regarding tires on the salt,
> from
> > > my vantage point in the timing stand we see it
all. First, this meet
> the
> > > salt was HARD & DRY. This can be a big factor
with any tire one runs.
> It
> is
> > > also abrasive in this condition.
> > >
> > > In the past about every kind of tire one can
think of has been tried
> > > including aircraft 727 main gear type. Over the
years I have seen the
> > > Daytona's and Taladaga's, front runners, wide
ovals etc. tried. At
> around
> > > 240 mph this seems to be the point where the
wide tire seems to start
> > > having problems.
> > >
> > > This is more so in the shorter wheel base sports
type vehicles. A lot
> of
> > > roadsters tend to spin because there's a lot of
weight on the front
> axle
> and
> > > once the vehicle has reached max acceleration the
rear starts to move
> around
> > > and can get away from the driver pretty quick.
The same for other
> vehicles.
> > >
> > > So, on to the wide Vs narrow and salt conditions.
Tires with grooves
> tend to
> > > pack salt in the grooves when the salt is wet and
get into a hydroplane
> > > condition, as do the wide slick tires with more
surface area under
> them.
> The
> > > narrow Bonneville tires like the Lakesters and
Streamliners run still
> seem
> > > to work best. Please don't miss read what I am
saying because I am only
> > > going by what has worked best in the past.
> > >
> > > Some years back racers were still using tubes in
the tires and found
> the
> > > higher speeds caused the tubes to be forced to
the outer part of the
> tire
> > > and pull off the valve stem. High pressure 90 -
100 psi rear and 80 in
> the
> > > fronts for tubeless type tires seems about the
norm. Sealing can be a
> > > problem but Keith Turk and others found ways on
this great thread on
> how
> to
> > > solve that.
> > >
> > > Another problem is age and down force loading of
the tires. The grooved
> tire
> > > that is running a lower air pressure can start to
separate along the
> grove
> > > and chunk off or split along the groove. I don't
claim to be an expert
> on
> > > tires, but I have been on the investigation of
every accident with SCTA
> /BNI
> > > since 1983. We look at everything that could be
probable cause and try
> to
> > > determine it. It's not easy as in our sport
nothing is contained
> between
> > > crash ways etc.
> > >
> > > Example, Earl Woodens incident from the first
indication of a problem
> to
> the
> > > last piece of the vehicle was some 3100 feet.
> > > In this case, once again the safety rules worked.
I think what my
> message is
> > > approach every venue with extreme caution. Any
landspeed racer will
> answer
> > > your questions regarding tires or just about
anything else you are
> seeking
> > > help on.
> > >
> > > Brian, Grib, keith Dave,Skip and all of the
rest, Once I am only going
> by
> > > what I have seen from the Best seat in the House.
You guy's and Gals
> put
> on
> > > one hell of a show in 2001.
> > > Thanks, and keep up the landspeed information
thread.
> > > Glen ( I timed the worlds fastest wheel driven
car to date, what a
> thrill
> > > for me)
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Bryan A. Savage Jr"
<basavage@earthlink.net>
> > > To: "Grib" <rgribble@carolina.rr.com>
> > > Cc: "List Land Speed" <land-speed@autox.team.net>
> > > Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2001 11:33 PM
> > > Subject: Everybody Knows That Won't Work
> > >
> > > > Grib,
> > > > I love it when someone like you proves, again,
that "What Everyone
> Knows"
> > > is
> > > > sometimes (frequently) totally wrong.
> > > > You have made a true breakthrough by running
rain tires. I have
> watched
> > > > several teams try the NASCAR slicks with mixed
results (the best was
> just
> > > OK).
> > > > Your comment:
> > > > "..there's plenty of open space in the tread
designed to expel water
> (and
> > > air)"
> > > > must describe what is happening.
> > > >
> > > > Now if someone could get Goodyear to do a CDF
study ........ this
> > > principal
> > > > my be adaptable to ultra high speed (500+)
tires.
> > > >
> > > > I didn't think your tires would work. I failed
to even consider the
> rain
> > > > tire design.
> > > > Thanks for proving completely wrong Grib.
> > > >
> > > > When will we have tires designed to
aerodynamically increase grip?
> > > >
> > > > Bryan
>
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