Henry,
A nice long rambling mail. reread your rulebook - Electric VEHICLE Class,
based on weight.
The main reason we don't have multiple electric car and motorcycle classes -
NO interest. Why include an electric class for every permutation of car and
motorcycle class when there was absolutely no electric entries at Bonneville
in 2000.
We have heard the argument - "if the class were there the entries would be
there" many times. Again, Bonneville 2000 no electric vehicles or big
trucks. There currently are approximently 1300 different motorcycle classes
with under 100 entries.
As to rules governing your bike for tech purposes, if you show up I'm sure
there would be some level headed, experienced inspectors who can figure out
the safety issues. Common sense would tell us that based on a regular
motorcycle your bike would have to fall into the same general specs. Granted
I am not a motorcycle guy but I am sure that a rules compromise can be
reached without adding another chapter to the rulebook.
I probably should have read all of my 179 emails I received this weekend
before answering as there is likely much more comment on the mail I sent
Friday.
Anyway - my take on this deal from a 35+ year involvement and 20+ years
doing the rulebook.
Dan Warner
----- Original Message -----
From: Henry Deaton <hdeaton@verio.com>
To: John Beckett <landspeedracer@email.msn.com>; Dan Warner
<dwarner@electrorent.com>
Cc: <land-speed@autox.team.net>
Sent: Friday, January 12, 2001 3:42 PM
Subject: Re: Motorcycle front-end Geometry
> Hey, (moment of stunned silence), you mean I could set the E1 electric car
> record on a motorcycle? I'd personally have no problems with that, because
> basically I just want to get out there and feel the world spinning
> backwards under my wheels, flat out, for miles (at least three miles,
maybe
> five if things work out). But then would I be running a 2-wheeled car?
> Which rules would I have to follow? What line would I get in for
inspections :)
>
> I have been talking to Dale Martin about electric motorcycle classes, as
> well as Henry Louie at WOS, and just about everybody else at the 2000 WOS
> or at El Mirage last November that I stumbled into. What I found was some
> general support for electric motorcycle classes in the club, but also a
> desire by Dale to create rules in conformance with FIM standards, just
like
> the electric car classes are the same as the FIA's. The first hurdle
though
> is just getting some safety rules together for electric motorcycles. It
> seems like they could be based on electric car requirements, but they
> aren't in the rule book and I haven't been able to find them.
>
> Here's the current SCTA electric car classes, borrowed from the FIA:
>
> E1: vehicle weights under 500 kg (1099 lbs)
> E2, 500 to 1000 kg (1100 to 2200 lbs)
> E3, over 1000 kg (2201 lbs and over).
>
> Here are the FIM's classes for electric motorcycles, currently
unrecognized
> by the SCTA:
>
> Category III, Group J, Class A1: electric motorcycles under 150 kg vehicle
> weight (330 lbs)
> Category III, Group J, Class A2: electric motorcycles 150 to 300 kg
vehicle
> weight (331 to 660 lbs)
>
> At first I didn't like the FIM's class structure, especially since there
is
> not way to check it at the track. And, there's no way to verify that the
> vehicle weight hasn't been changed or modified since it was last weighed
> (rules do require a weight certificate). I know, I know, I'm generally a
> trusting guy, but, it'd still be nice to be able to verify a bike is in
the
> right class while it's sitting in the impound. In most cases it'll
probably
> be pretty obvious, but still.
>
> An alternative? The National Electric Drag Racing Association has classes
> based on voltage: 24v, 48v, 72v, 96v, 120v, 144v, 168v, 192v, 216, 240v
and
> over 240 volts. http://www.nedra.com/ While voltage isn't power, it's
> actually a pretty predictor of performance in the vehicles folks are
racing
> now. For the most part machines with a higher voltage tend to go faster.
> It's also very easy to check. But I also don't think the SCTA needs or
> wants lots of new electric motorcycle classes. And I think NEDRA went way
> overboard and created too many voltage classes.
>
> Another type of racing, Electrathon, uses battery weight. They only have
> one class, for 64 lbs of batteries, and they run a one-hour endurance race
> in which the vehicle that goes the longest distance wins. I think
something
> based on battery weight makes even more sense than the FIA/FIM method of
> using total vehicle weight without driver (TVWWD?). NEDRA also has a class
> for light-weight vehicles also based on a 64 lb battery weight.
>
> And I'm sure there are other equally valid schemes for classifying
electric
> vehicle power. But at the moment I think what makes the most sense is to
> adopt the FIM's class structure. I still have a problem with the FIM's
> classes since it limits the maximum weight of an electric motorcycle to
660
> lbs. So, if the SCTA adopt's the FIM classes I'd like to see an open class
> added, just like the electric cars have. So we'd have a third class for
> motorcycles weighing over 300 kg. Seems only fair, especially since some
> ICE-powered motorcycle streamliners weigh over 1000 lbs.
>
>
> Okay, now that I've got started, here's some more ramblings on electric
> vehicle classes:
>
> The other thing is it'd be great if the SCTA could eventually include
> electric power in the special construction, sidecar, and streamliner
> classes. So, it'd be like having three "displacement" classes for electric
> power in A, APS, SC, SCS, and S. In my reading of the rules it's already
> there:
>
> 2000 SCTA rule book: page 86, 4B, Engine Class W: steam, turbine, or
> electric; page 87, 4D, Permitted Engine Classes, Mod: All, A: All, MPS:
> All, APS: All, S: All, SC: All, SCS: All
>
> But, then on page 99 there is 5F, Engine Classes, 12, Class Omega (how do
> you make that symbol in email?) Engines using a themodynamic cycle other
> than Otto. Includes electric, steam, and turbine engines.
>
> So, electric is listed as a motorcycle engine class, both as W and as
> Omega, and the rules seem to imply that you can run any class engine in an
> A, APS, S, SC, and SCS bike. But, there aren't any existing records and it
> seems like something the SCTA needs to clarify at some point in the
future.
> As it stands, it looks like there'd be at least one spot in the record
book
> for an electrically powered motorcycle in every class besides production.
>
> BTW - You know it's very interesting to read the discussions in the
> archives from last year about FIA certification. I just have to wonder why
> the FIA and FIM just don't outright recognize SCTA records without having
> to have their own people present to verify things. Seems like it would be
> the friendly and civilized thing to do, sort of respecting each other's
> authority and all. It's kinda like they don't trust the SCTA or something.
>
> Henry
>
>
>
> At 04:10 PM 1/12/2001 -0500, John Beckett wrote:
> >Well that sure takes the murkiness of an electric bike out of the
picture.
> >And a viable record as a target. Go for it Henry.
> >
> >John
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Dan Warner" <dwarner@electrorent.com>
> >To: "Henry Deaton" <hdeaton@verio.com>
> >Cc: <land-speed@autox.team.net>
> >Sent: Friday, January 12, 2001 1:50 PM
> >Subject: Re: Motorcycle front-end Geometry
> >
> >
> > > Henry & list,
> > >
> > > I see no restrictions in the rulebook against an electric motorcycle.
When
> > > the electric classes were formed the body was left open. Now granted,
a
> > > streamliner would seem to be the best tool for the job but there is
> > > currently no restriction as to what can be run. There is no rule
stating
> >how
> > > many wheels must be used, so two would be as good as four or more. An
> > > electric Taurus at one tiime held one of the class records.
> > >
> > > The electric classes are set by weight, no other qualifier. Your bike
> > > weighing under 1000# would fall into the class one, E I, break. The
record
> > > stands at 132 mph now. I see your bike as a viable contender.
> > >
> > > Dan Warner
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Henry Deaton <hdeaton@verio.com>
> > > To: List Land Speed <land-speed@autox.team.net>
> > > Sent: Friday, January 12, 2001 9:39 AM
> > > Subject: RE: Motorcycle front-end Geometry
> > >
> > >
> > > > Hi Dale,
> > > >
> > > > I'm not planning on using a fairing mainly because just building the
> >bike
> > > > is about all I can handle this year. Maybe next year or the year
after
> > > I'll
> > > > look at adding some streamlined bodywork. Also, even though there
aren't
> > > > *any* classes for electric motorcycles yet (except maybe for
> >streamliners,
> > > > sort of a murky area in the rules, and an area where what the rules
say
> > > > doesn't seem to be the same as how they get interpreted), the SCTA
does
> > > > have classes for streamlined and unstreamlined motorcycles. What I'm
> > > > building is intended to be a special construction unstreamlined
> > > motorcycle.
> > > >
> > > > So, in spite of the complicated forks I'm basically trying to keep
> >things
> > > > simple and focus mostly on the powertrain this year.
> > > >
> > > > Henry
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > At 07:58 AM 1/12/2001 -0700, Clay, Dale wrote:
> > > > >Why aren't you going to use a fairing? Even if the fork is
relatively
> > > more
> > > > >streamlined than a tele (not so sure), remember, you're sitting
behind
> > > it.
> > > > >This could have better compliance than a tele at 450 and it could
be
> > > > >somewhat lower, but again you'll be sitting behind it.
> > > > >
> > > > >With the limited travel and long wheelbase you will have I doubt
the
> > > > >geometry issue and anti-drive will have much effect.
> > > > >
> > > > >Not trying to talk you out of building it, just making some
> >observations.
> > > > >I'd also seriously consider some streamlining.
> > > > >
> > > > >Dale
> > > > >-----Original Message-----
> > > > >From: Henry Deaton [mailto:hdeaton@verio.com]
> > > > >Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2001 3:44 PM
> > > > >To: List Land Speed
> > > > >Subject: Re: Motorcycle front-end Geometry
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >The bike shown uses a draglink between the front forks and the
> > > handlebars.
> > > > >The main advantage I'm looking for is improved aerodynamics. Since
the
> > > > >forks are solid, I can use streamlined tubing. I'm also hoping to
keep
> > > the
> > > > >front of the bike lower than I could with standard forks. Ideally
I'd
> >use
> > > > >some kind of hub-center steering, so the Hossack is a compromise
that
> > > > >should be more aerodynamic than telescopic forks and also simpler,
> > > easier,
> > > > >and less expensive to build than a hub-center front end.
> > > > >
> > > > >The design has some other advantages too, like maintaining the same
> >rake
> > > > >and trail throughout the full range of travel and no dive when you
> >brake,
> > > > >things that are more important to bikes that need to turn or brake
for
> > > > >corners.
> > > > >
> > > > >BTW, I had to ask about the steering too when I first saw this
front
> >end.
> > > > >
> > > > >Henry Deaton
> > > > >SF, CA
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >At 04:18 PM 1/11/2001 -0600, Keith Turk wrote:
> > > > > >Henry... I am throwing this opinion out there based on nothing
but my
> > > > > >concept of how to go fast and try and be semi reliable....
> > > > > >
> > > > > >I went to the Website and checked out the front end.... try as I
> >might
> > > I
> > > > > >couldn't see how the steering was applied to the front end....
nor
> > > could I
> > > > > >see the real benefits from it over a simple triple clamp/
> >conventional
> > > Folk
> > > > > >arrangement....
> > > > > >
> > > > > >I guess what I am trying to say is could you enlighten me as to
the
> > > > > >advantages of a system this complicated....
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Keith ( big fan of the KISS principal )
> > > > > >
> > > > > >----------
> > > > > > > From: Clay, Dale <Dale.Clay@mdhelicopters.com>
> > > > > > > To: 'Henry Deaton' <hdeaton@verio.com>; List Land Speed
> > > > > ><land-speed@autox.team.net>
> > > > > > > Subject: RE: Motorcycle Front-End Geometry
> > > > > > > Date: Thursday, January 11, 2001 4:01 PM
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Henry,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I don't have much experience with "lay down" bikes but those
> >numbers
> > > are
> > > > > > > pretty close to what fuel bikes run and they're up around 230
for
> > > blown
> > > > > > > fours and 200 for twins.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > With the limited amount of travel required, I doubt you need
as
> > > > > >complicated
> > > > > > > a suspension as that, but if you want to play with it ...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Dale
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hey Dick J. is that your 300K mile bemmer in the photo?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > From: Henry Deaton [mailto:hdeaton@verio.com]
> > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2001 2:44 PM
> > > > > > > To: List Land Speed
> > > > > > > Subject: Motorcycle Front-End Geometry
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I'm finally ready to start building my electric LSR bike.
Here's
> > > what
> > > > > >I've
> > > > > > > got planned so far:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hossack-style front end, 1.5" travel:
> > > > > > > http://www.eurospares.com/tfoale/mmjpg/tfbmw.jpg
> > > > > > > solid rear end
> > > > > > > 3.5x17 front wheel, with a 120/60ZR17 tire
> > > > > > > 4.5x18 rear wheel, with a 160/60ZR18 tire
> > > > > > > wheelbase around 70" (bike needs to fit on my 4x8 trailer)
> > > > > > > weight without rider about 600 lbs, with rider around 760 lbs.
> > > > > > > Forklift motor
> > > > > > > CVT snowmobile transmission
> > > > > > > 270 lbs AGM batteries, 120 volts
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Speed should be in the 150 to 175 mph range? (well, ya gotta
have
> >a
> > > > >goal,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > right?)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I was wondering if anyone on the list has any thoughts about
> > > front-end
> > > > > > > geometry. I'm thinking of using a front rake around 40 to 45
> > > degrees,
> > > > >and
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > about 8 to 10 inches of trail. That's what a guy that builds
> > > dragbike
> > > > > > > frames recommended to me.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Any comments or questions would be appreciated. I've done some
> >drag
> > > > > >racing
> > > > > > > with electric bikes in the past, but this LSR stuff is pretty
new
> >to
> > > me.
> > > > > > > Mainly looking for tips on how to build a bike for
straight-line
> > > > > >stability
> > > > > > > at El Mirage and Bonneville.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > BTW, only 115 days until El Mirage.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Henry Deaton
> > > > > > > SF, CA
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