healeys
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Re: [Healeys] Healeys Digest, Vol 11, Issue 325

To: sentenac.rw@gmail.com
Subject: Re: [Healeys] Healeys Digest, Vol 11, Issue 325
From: Gary Anderson <editorgary@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 21:39:44 -0400
Cc: Austin Healey list <healeys@autox.team.net>
Delivered-to: mharc@autox.team.net
Delivered-to: healeys@autox.team.net
References: <mailman.1.1540404001.31328.healeys@autox.team.net> <1596C344-8CE5-48AC-A7CB-87B9BAF03481@aol.com> <sp22tddvj23fu9kb4bocjjsiijl5h5p4u2@4ax.com>
Roland is correct and his information on vitreous enamel is what should be in 
the standards.
Thank you.

Gary Anderson 


> On Oct 24, 2018, at 8:32 PM, sentenac.rw@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> With respect to all, and respectfully, I suggest that we all
> understand that the term cloisonne refers to the use of wire to make a
> pattern which is soldered to a flat bed.  The wire is usually gold or
> silver.  The 'filler' material, in the case of Healeys the red stuff
> (at least for most of the pre-BJ series Healeys), is vitreous enamel.
> It is fired in place, not simply sprayed on.  It is somewhat similar
> to the 'enamel' that is used in enamelware baking dishes and older
> cast iron bathtubs, and not closely related to paint.  For Healey
> badges the red stuff is in depressions cast into the badge, not
> created with wire.
> 
> -Roland
> BN1 #724 about to be launched onto public highways for the first time
> since 1964
> 
> 
> 
>> On Wed, 24 Oct 2018 16:05:59 -0400, you wrote:
>> 
>> With all due respect, Curt, how about showing some respect â?? if youâ??re 
>> so smart now why didnâ??t you make this correction in all the years you were 
>> chairman of concours.
>> 
>> Gary Anderson 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Oct 24, 2018, at 2:00 PM, healeys-request@autox.team.net wrote:
>>> 
>>> Send Healeys mailing list submissions to
>>>   healeys@autox.team.net
>>> 
>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>>   http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>>   healeys-request@autox.team.net
>>> 
>>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>>>   healeys-owner@autox.team.net
>>> 
>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>> than "Re: Contents of Healeys digest..."
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Today's Topics:
>>> 
>>>  1. Re: Healeys Digest, Vol 11, Issue 324 (Gary Anderson)
>>>  2. Re: paint type (Frank Magnusson)
>>>  3. Re: Lift for Healeys (Bob Spidell)
>>>  4. Re: Lift for Healeys (Richard Collins)
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> 
>>> Message: 1
>>> Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 16:32:00 -0400
>>> From: Gary Anderson <editorgary@aol.com>
>>> To: healeys@autox.team.net
>>> Subject: Re: [Healeys] Healeys Digest, Vol 11, Issue 324
>>> Message-ID: <628F5308-3B81-487C-BE7B-D2944E15F82E@aol.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain;    charset=utf-8
>>> 
>>> When we wrote that I think we were saying that the inset red was baked or 
>>> fired in to create a glass effect? to distinguish it from paint. Someone 
>>> should take it to a jewelry maker and ask what it is rathe than guessing.
>>> G
>>> 
>>> Gary Anderson 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Oct 23, 2018, at 2:00 PM, healeys-request@autox.team.net wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Send Healeys mailing list submissions to
>>>>  healeys@autox.team.net
>>>> 
>>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>>>  http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>>>  healeys-request@autox.team.net
>>>> 
>>>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>>>>  healeys-owner@autox.team.net
>>>> 
>>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>>> than "Re: Contents of Healeys digest..."
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Today's Topics:
>>>> 
>>>> 1. Re: Paint type (Curtis Arndt)
>>>> 2. Re: Paint type (Michael Salter)
>>>> 3. Re: Paint type (Roger Moment)
>>>> 4. Re: Paint type (nconklin@sbcglobal.net)
>>>> 5. Re: Badge on bonnet ? Hyphenated or Not  [was ?Paint type and
>>>>    color?] (Ian Hey)
>>>> 6.  Paint type (simon.lachlan@alexarevel.plus.com)
>>>> 7. Re: Paint type and color (Bob Spidell)
>>>> 8. Re: Paint type (Andy Sneddon)
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> 
>>>> Message: 1
>>>> Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2018 22:42:23 -0700
>>>> From: Curtis Arndt <cnaarndt@gmail.com>
>>>> To: gary brierton <gbrierton@hotmail.com>
>>>> Cc: Roger Moment <rmoment@comcast.net>, Healey List
>>>>  <healeys@autox.team.net>, Michael Salter <michael.salter@gmail.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Healeys] Paint type
>>>> Message-ID:
>>>>  <CAJKrNeSRsNDpMHL6OD7JMfxY2d2rQ7YROqh+2MJvOMxjauR+sA@mail.gmail.com>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>> 
>>>> Gary,
>>>> 
>>>> With all due respect, sorry but you are mistaken on a number of points.
>>>> 
>>>> *Michael Salter... Please make this my first revision for the next Concours
>>>> Guidelines update. *
>>>> 
>>>> First off, the badges were never Cloisonne, they are red enamel.  Yes, the
>>>> Concours Guidelines state that they are Cloisonne, the Guidelines are
>>>> WRONG.  I am officially submitting an update for the next Concours
>>>> Guidelines revision.
>>>> 
>>>> Copied from the Concours Guidelines...
>>>> 
>>>> *"All cars up through the Mark I 3000s had flat Austin-Healey "wings"
>>>> mounted on the front between the grille and bonnet opening, with red
>>>> cloisonn? lettering inset in chrome."  *
>>>> 
>>>> Change to read* "**red enamel lettering"*
>>>> 
>>>> This is where the confusion first arises!
>>>> 
>>>> Secondly, all Austin Healey badges were red enamel from the very first BN1
>>>> in 1953 through the BJ8 at chassis no. 39975. After that they were indeed
>>>> painted red.  Also copied from the Concours Guidelines...
>>>> 
>>>> *"BJ8s produced starting around C. 39,975 (approximate date ? December
>>>> 1966) had a similar badge that was not cloisonn? but was painted red
>>>> instead of the cloisonn?. These later badges have a smooth background
>>>> instead of the pebbled background of the enameled badges." *
>>>> 
>>>> Change to read* "**was not enamel but was painted red instead of the
>>>> enamel."*
>>>> 
>>>> Karla Maxwell, a trained jeweler with 45+ years experience who owns Maxwell
>>>> Enamels will tell you, as she told me 25 years ago that automotive badges
>>>> are enamel and NOT Cloisonne.  Karla is the premier automotive emblem
>>>> restorer in the US, is in high demand for Pebble Beach participants, is a
>>>> neighbor and personal friend of 25+ years. Karla has restored a number of
>>>> badges personally for me, and I have done some Bakelite restoration work
>>>> for Karla for Pebble Beach cars that she was working on.  Oh, and Karla's
>>>> business is Maxwell Enamels NOT Maxwell Cloisonne.  In the UK the best
>>>> known badge restorer is PD Enamels, NOT PD Cloisonne.
>>>> 
>>>> I hope that this clears things up once and for all.
>>>> 
>>>> This is from Karla's FAQ section of her website...
>>>> http://www.maxwellenamels.com/FAQs.html
>>>> 
>>>> *FAQ... How was my emblem created? *
>>>> 
>>>> These enameled emblems are often, *incorrectly, referred to as cloisonn?*.
>>>> Cloisonn? is an enamel process in which separate bands of metal are bent
>>>> then applied to a base. These labor intensive bands encase the enamel and
>>>> create the design. I have yet to see an automobile emblem done with
>>>> cloisonn?. The process that is used is called *champlev?* (pronounced
>>>> shomp?-leh-vay).
>>>> 
>>>> The champlev? technique involves applying enamel into depressions in the
>>>> base metal. These depressions may be etched, engraved or, in the case of
>>>> automobile emblems, die stamped. The stamping process can also include the
>>>> beautiful design work that shows under transparent enamels.
>>>> 
>>>> Historically the word enamel meant glass but today it seems to refer to any
>>>> shiny color. The correct terminology is *vitreous* [glass] enamel. It is a
>>>> true glass that melts and fuses around 1400 degrees F.  Enamel can be
>>>> obtained as opaque, translucent or transparent. The colors are created by
>>>> the addition of metallic oxides to the glass.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 8:31 PM Gary R. Brierton <gbrierton@hotmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> OK...let's try and clear this up.  As I understand it, the "flat wings
>>>>> with the Austin-Healey script" commonly seen on BN1, BN2 and (I don't know
>>>>> when it stopped), had red paint of unknown shade in the etched out
>>>>> lettering.  Along came the larger badges with MKII or whatever, in
>>>>> cloisonne. THEN, to really screw us up, those badges returned to red
>>>>> paint of unknown shade, seemingly during BJ8 production.  As was true with
>>>>> almost everything involving our cars, the exact change VIN number for all
>>>>> of this is largely indeterminate, at least as far as trim pieces are
>>>>> concerned...oh, and some major body parts, like wings with one  or two
>>>>> signaling lights, swag lines, whatever.  Reliable reports (from D.M.H.!)
>>>>> state that the guiding principle in assembling our cars was "use up what
>>>>> was on hand".
>>>>> I claim no expertise beyond owning Austin-Healeys and associating with
>>>>> their owners for over 50 years (so, mainly the 6 cylinder cars).
>>>>> Take it away, Curt, Randy, Steve, et. al.?
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>>>> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>>>>> 
>>>>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
>>>>> http://autox.team.net/archive
>>>>> 
>>>>> Healeys@autox.team.net
>>>>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>>>>> 
>>>>> Unsubscribe/Manage:
>>>>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/cnaarndt@gmail.com
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> -------------- next part --------------
>>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>>>> URL: 
>>>> <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/healeys/attachments/20181018/adfc7872/attachment-0001.html>
>>>> 
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>> 
>>>> Message: 2
>>>> Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 07:35:37 -0400
>>>> From: Michael Salter <michael.salter@gmail.com>
>>>> To: "Curt/Nancy Arndt" <cnaarndt@gmail.com>
>>>> Cc: healeys@autox.team.net, Roger Moment <rmoment@comcast.net>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Healeys] Paint type
>>>> Message-ID:
>>>>  <CAB3i7LLfSqVEa0A-9kTz5MfTZKpfydwTXqHheHSZYnp2Bb7dJg@mail.gmail.com>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>> 
>>>> Okay now I  get it.
>>>> What I have been refering to as "cliosonne" is actually "vitreous enamel"
>>>> (also know as champlev?) and that is actually what was used in all front
>>>> badges until the later Mk III badges that appeared with red paint.
>>>> What is important is that the vitreous enamel IS NOT PAINT.
>>>> Part of the terminology problem is that some paints are commonly referred
>>>> to as "emamel" but enamel paint is not what was used in the badges prior to
>>>> MkIII cars prior to around HBJ8L 39975.
>>>> If this is agreed I will make the appropriate changes to the guidelines.
>>>> 
>>>> M
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On Fri, Oct 19, 2018, 1:42 AM Curtis Arndt, <cnaarndt@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Gary,
>>>>> 
>>>>> With all due respect, sorry but you are mistaken on a number of points.
>>>>> 
>>>>> *Michael Salter... Please make this my first revision for the next
>>>>> Concours Guidelines update. *
>>>>> 
>>>>> First off, the badges were never Cloisonne, they are red enamel.  Yes, the
>>>>> Concours Guidelines state that they are Cloisonne, the Guidelines are
>>>>> WRONG.  I am officially submitting an update for the next Concours
>>>>> Guidelines revision.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Copied from the Concours Guidelines...
>>>>> 
>>>>> *"All cars up through the Mark I 3000s had flat Austin-Healey "wings"
>>>>> mounted on the front between the grille and bonnet opening, with red
>>>>> cloisonn? lettering inset in chrome."  *
>>>>> 
>>>>> Change to read* "**red enamel lettering"*
>>>>> 
>>>>> This is where the confusion first arises!
>>>>> 
>>>>> Secondly, all Austin Healey badges were red enamel from the very first BN1
>>>>> in 1953 through the BJ8 at chassis no. 39975. After that they were indeed
>>>>> painted red.  Also copied from the Concours Guidelines...
>>>>> 
>>>>> *"BJ8s produced starting around C. 39,975 (approximate date ? December
>>>>> 1966) had a similar badge that was not cloisonn? but was painted red
>>>>> instead of the cloisonn?. These later badges have a smooth background
>>>>> instead of the pebbled background of the enameled badges." *
>>>>> 
>>>>> Change to read* "**was not enamel but was painted red instead of the
>>>>> enamel."*
>>>>> 
>>>>> Karla Maxwell, a trained jeweler with 45+ years experience who owns
>>>>> Maxwell Enamels will tell you, as she told me 25 years ago that automotive
>>>>> badges are enamel and NOT Cloisonne.  Karla is the premier automotive
>>>>> emblem restorer in the US, is in high demand for Pebble Beach 
>>>>> participants,
>>>>> is a neighbor and personal friend of 25+ years. Karla has restored a 
>>>>> number
>>>>> of badges personally for me, and I have done some Bakelite restoration 
>>>>> work
>>>>> for Karla for Pebble Beach cars that she was working on.  Oh, and Karla's
>>>>> business is Maxwell Enamels NOT Maxwell Cloisonne.  In the UK the best
>>>>> known badge restorer is PD Enamels, NOT PD Cloisonne.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I hope that this clears things up once and for all.
>>>>> 
>>>>> This is from Karla's FAQ section of her website...
>>>>> http://www.maxwellenamels.com/FAQs.html
>>>>> 
>>>>> *FAQ... How was my emblem created? *
>>>>> 
>>>>> These enameled emblems are often, *incorrectly, referred to as cloisonn?*.
>>>>> Cloisonn? is an enamel process in which separate bands of metal are bent
>>>>> then applied to a base. These labor intensive bands encase the enamel and
>>>>> create the design. I have yet to see an automobile emblem done with
>>>>> cloisonn?. The process that is used is called *champlev?* (pronounced
>>>>> shomp?-leh-vay).
>>>>> 
>>>>> The champlev? technique involves applying enamel into depressions in the
>>>>> base metal. These depressions may be etched, engraved or, in the case of
>>>>> automobile emblems, die stamped. The stamping process can also include the
>>>>> beautiful design work that shows under transparent enamels.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Historically the word enamel meant glass but today it seems to refer to
>>>>> any shiny color. The correct terminology is *vitreous* [glass] enamel. It
>>>>> is a true glass that melts and fuses around 1400 degrees F.  Enamel can be
>>>>> obtained as opaque, translucent or transparent. The colors are created by
>>>>> the addition of metallic oxides to the glass.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 8:31 PM Gary R. Brierton <gbrierton@hotmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> OK...let's try and clear this up.  As I understand it, the "flat wings
>>>>>> with the Austin-Healey script" commonly seen on BN1, BN2 and (I don't 
>>>>>> know
>>>>>> when it stopped), had red paint of unknown shade in the etched out
>>>>>> lettering.  Along came the larger badges with MKII or whatever, in
>>>>>> cloisonne. THEN, to really screw us up, those badges returned to red
>>>>>> paint of unknown shade, seemingly during BJ8 production.  As was true 
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> almost everything involving our cars, the exact change VIN number for all
>>>>>> of this is largely indeterminate, at least as far as trim pieces are
>>>>>> concerned...oh, and some major body parts, like wings with one  or two
>>>>>> signaling lights, swag lines, whatever.  Reliable reports (from D.M.H.!)
>>>>>> state that the guiding principle in assembling our cars was "use up what
>>>>>> was on hand".
>>>>>> I claim no expertise beyond owning Austin-Healeys and associating with
>>>>>> their owners for over 50 years (so, mainly the 6 cylinder cars).
>>>>>> Take it away, Curt, Randy, Steve, et. al.?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>>>>> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
>>>>>> http://autox.team.net/archive
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Healeys@autox.team.net
>>>>>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Unsubscribe/Manage:
>>>>>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/cnaarndt@gmail.com
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>> -------------- next part --------------
>>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>>>> URL: 
>>>> <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/healeys/attachments/20181019/e98c54ac/attachment-0001.html>
>>>> 
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>> 
>>>> Message: 3
>>>> Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 06:06:25 -0600
>>>> From: "Roger Moment" <Rmoment@comcast.net>
>>>> To: "Curtis Arndt" <cnaarndt@gmail.com>, "gary brierton"
>>>>  <gbrierton@hotmail.com>
>>>> Cc: Sean and Tricia Johnson <healey@communitynet.org>, Michael Salter
>>>>  <michael.salter@gmail.com>, Healey List <healeys@autox.team.net>,
>>>>  "Tom, Kaye Kovacs" <fntune@charter.net>, carol hodgman
>>>>  <carolhodgman@gmail.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Healeys] Paint type
>>>> Message-ID: <8D06CCAAE5FA42AD8B68682CE6AB4ECD@7RM>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>> 
>>>> To all,
>>>> 
>>>> I?m not clear about who wrote what, but ALL Healey wing badges WERE 
>>>> CLOISONN? (up to late BJ8s, starting in Dec. 1966, as stated in the 
>>>> current Guidelines)!!!!!!!!  You can tell  this because the red lettering 
>>>> color is transparent and you can see through to the backing.
>>>> 
>>>> This is why you cannot just repair the red on a badge.  The Cloisonn? 
>>>> process requires high heat and would destroy the Cr plating ? they do the 
>>>> lettering first and plate with Cr afterwards.
>>>> 
>>>> I have had manly original badges restored by P-D Enamels in England.  Yes, 
>>>> their name has ?Enamels? in it, but the process they use to replicate 
>>>> original badges like the Healey winged ones is Cloisonn?.  They have seen 
>>>> a very large number of these and have restored them exactly as-new.  They 
>>>> agree that the red ?fill? was Cloisonn?!!!  They restore them with this 
>>>> material.
>>>> 
>>>> Look at old defective badges.  Where the color has started to separate 
>>>> from the backing it looks darker.  This is because you are looking through 
>>>> a glass and can identify separation from the backing.   Where it is 
>>>> missing in places it looks exactly like chipped out glass, not paint.  It 
>>>> is much thicker than paint.
>>>> 
>>>> On the late BJ8s they went to paint.  This looks totally different!!!
>>>> 
>>>> The Guidelines as currently written are correct!!  DO NOT CHANGE!!!!!!!!
>>>> 
>>>> I?ll ?go to the mat? on this!!!!
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Roger
>>>> 
>>>> From: Curtis Arndt 
>>>> Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2018 11:42 PM
>>>> To: gary brierton 
>>>> Cc: Healey List ; Michael Salter ; Roland Wilhelmy ; Roger Moment 
>>>> Subject: Re: [Healeys] Paint type
>>>> 
>>>> Gary, 
>>>> 
>>>> With all due respect, sorry but you are mistaken on a number of points. 
>>>> 
>>>> Michael Salter... Please make this my first revision for the next Concours 
>>>> Guidelines update. 
>>>> 
>>>> First off, the badges were never Cloisonne, they are red enamel.  Yes, the 
>>>> Concours Guidelines state that they are Cloisonne, the Guidelines are 
>>>> WRONG.  I am officially submitting an update for the next Concours 
>>>> Guidelines revision.
>>>> 
>>>> Copied from the Concours Guidelines...
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> "All cars up through the Mark I 3000s had flat Austin-Healey "wings" 
>>>> mounted on the front between the grille and bonnet opening, with red 
>>>> cloisonn? lettering inset in chrome."  
>>>> 
>>>> Change to read "red enamel lettering"
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> This is where the confusion first arises!
>>>> 
>>>> Secondly, all Austin Healey badges were red enamel from the very first BN1 
>>>> in 1953 through the BJ8 at chassis no. 39975. After that they were indeed 
>>>> painted red.  Also copied from the Concours Guidelines...
>>>> 
>>>> "BJ8s produced starting around C. 39,975 (approximate date ? December 
>>>> 1966) had a similar badge that was not cloisonn? but was painted red 
>>>> instead of the cloisonn?. These later badges have a smooth background 
>>>> instead of the pebbled background of the enameled badges." 
>>>> 
>>>> Change to read "was not enamel but was painted red instead of the enamel."
>>>> 
>>>> Karla Maxwell, a trained jeweler with 45+ years experience who owns 
>>>> Maxwell Enamels will tell you, as she told me 25 years ago that automotive 
>>>> badges are enamel and NOT Cloisonne.  Karla is the premier automotive 
>>>> emblem restorer in the US, is in high demand for Pebble Beach 
>>>> participants, is a neighbor and personal friend of 25+ years. Karla has 
>>>> restored a number of badges personally for me, and I have done some 
>>>> Bakelite restoration work for Karla for Pebble Beach cars that she was 
>>>> working on.  Oh, and Karla's business is Maxwell Enamels NOT Maxwell 
>>>> Cloisonne.  In the UK the best known badge restorer is PD Enamels, NOT PD 
>>>> Cloisonne.
>>>> 
>>>> I hope that this clears things up once and for all.
>>>> 
>>>> This is from Karla's FAQ section of her website... 
>>>> http://www.maxwellenamels.com/FAQs.html
>>>> FAQ... How was my emblem created? 
>>>> 
>>>> These enameled emblems are often, incorrectly, referred to as cloisonn?. 
>>>> Cloisonn? is an enamel process in which separate bands of metal are bent 
>>>> then applied to a base. These labor intensive bands encase the enamel and 
>>>> create the design. I have yet to see an automobile emblem done with 
>>>> cloisonn?. The process that is used is called champlev? (pronounced 
>>>> shomp?-leh-vay).
>>>> 
>>>> The champlev? technique involves applying enamel into depressions in the 
>>>> base metal. These depressions may be etched, engraved or, in the case of 
>>>> automobile emblems, die stamped. The stamping process can also include the 
>>>> beautiful design work that shows under transparent enamels. 
>>>> 
>>>> Historically the word enamel meant glass but today it seems to refer to 
>>>> any shiny color. The correct terminology is vitreous [glass] enamel. It is 
>>>> a true glass that melts and fuses around 1400 degrees F.  Enamel can be 
>>>> obtained as opaque, translucent or transparent. The colors are created by 
>>>> the addition of metallic oxides to the glass.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 8:31 PM Gary R. Brierton <gbrierton@hotmail.com> 
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> OK...let's try and clear this up.  As I understand it, the "flat wings 
>>>> with the Austin-Healey script" commonly seen on BN1, BN2 and (I don't know 
>>>> when it stopped), had red paint of unknown shade in the etched out 
>>>> lettering.  Along came the larger badges with MKII or whatever, in 
>>>> cloisonne. THEN, to really screw us up, those badges returned to red paint 
>>>> of unknown shade, seemingly during BJ8 production.  As was true with 
>>>> almost everything involving our cars, the exact change VIN number for all 
>>>> of this is largely indeterminate, at least as far as trim pieces are 
>>>> concerned...oh, and some major body parts, like wings with one  or two 
>>>> signaling lights, swag lines, whatever.  Reliable reports (from D.M.H.!) 
>>>> state that the guiding principle in assembling our cars was "use up what 
>>>> was on hand".
>>>> I claim no expertise beyond owning Austin-Healeys and associating with 
>>>> their owners for over 50 years (so, mainly the 6 cylinder cars).
>>>> Take it away, Curt, Randy, Steve, et. al.?
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>>> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>>>> 
>>>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys 
>>>> http://autox.team.net/archive
>>>> 
>>>> Healeys@autox.team.net
>>>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>>>> 
>>>> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
>>>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/cnaarndt@gmail.com
>>>> 
>>>> -------------- next part --------------
>>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>>>> URL: 
>>>> <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/healeys/attachments/20181019/c71ccf5e/attachment-0001.html>
>>>> 
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>> 
>>>> Message: 4
>>>> Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 14:59:17 +0000 (UTC)
>>>> From: "nconklin@sbcglobal.net" <nconklin@sbcglobal.net>
>>>> To: Curtis Arndt <cnaarndt@gmail.com>, gary brierton
>>>>  <gbrierton@hotmail.com>
>>>> Cc: Roger Moment <rmoment@comcast.net>, Healey List
>>>>  <healeys@autox.team.net>, Michael Salter <michael.salter@gmail.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Healeys] Paint type
>>>> Message-ID: <1851283472.13517403.1539961157512@mail.yahoo.com>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>> 
>>>> Nice write up and documentation , Thanks Curt
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Thursday, October 18, 2018, 10:42 PM, Curtis Arndt <cnaarndt@gmail.com> 
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Gary,
>>>> With all due respect, sorry but you are mistaken on a number of points.?
>>>> Michael Salter... Please make this my first revision for the next Concours 
>>>> Guidelines update.?
>>>> First off, the badges were never Cloisonne, they are red enamel.? Yes, the 
>>>> Concours Guidelines state that they are Cloisonne, the Guidelines are 
>>>> WRONG.? I am officially submitting an update for the next Concours 
>>>> Guidelines revision.
>>>> Copied from the Concours Guidelines...
>>>> "All cars up through the Mark I 3000s had flat Austin-Healey "wings" 
>>>> mounted on the front between the grille and bonnet opening, with red 
>>>> cloisonn? lettering inset in chrome."??
>>>> Change to read?"red enamel lettering"
>>>> 
>>>> This is where the confusion first arises!
>>>> Secondly, all Austin Healey badges were red enamel from the very first BN1 
>>>> in 1953 through the BJ8 at chassis no. 39975. After that they were indeed 
>>>> painted red.? Also copied from the Concours Guidelines...
>>>> "BJ8s produced starting around C. 39,975 (approximate date ? December 
>>>> 1966) had a similar badge that was not cloisonn? but was painted red 
>>>> instead of the cloisonn?.?These later badges have a smooth background 
>>>> instead of the pebbled background of?the enameled badges."?
>>>> Change to read?"was not enamel but was painted red instead of the enamel."
>>>> Karla Maxwell, a trained jeweler with 45+ years experience who owns 
>>>> Maxwell Enamels will tell you, as she told me 25 years ago that automotive 
>>>> badges are enamel and NOT Cloisonne.? Karla is the premier automotive 
>>>> emblem restorer in the US, is in high demand for Pebble Beach 
>>>> participants, is a neighbor and personal friend of 25+ years. Karla has 
>>>> restored a number of badges personally for me, and I have done some 
>>>> Bakelite restoration work for Karla for Pebble Beach cars that she was 
>>>> working on.? Oh, and Karla's business is Maxwell Enamels NOT Maxwell 
>>>> Cloisonne.? In the UK the best known badge restorer is PD Enamels, NOT PD 
>>>> Cloisonne.
>>>> I hope that this clears things up once and for all.
>>>> This is from Karla's FAQ section of her 
>>>> website...?http://www.maxwellenamels.com/FAQs.html
>>>> FAQ... How was my emblem created??
>>>> 
>>>> These enameled emblems are often, incorrectly, referred to as?cloisonn?. 
>>>> Cloisonn? is an enamel process in which separate bands of metal are bent 
>>>> then applied to a base. These labor intensive bands encase the enamel and 
>>>> create the design. I have yet to see an automobile emblem done with 
>>>> cloisonn?. The process that is used is called?champlev??(pronounced 
>>>> shomp?-leh-vay).
>>>> 
>>>> The champlev? technique involves?applying enamel into depressions in the 
>>>> base metal. These depressions may be etched, engraved or, in the case of 
>>>> automobile emblems, die stamped. The stamping process can also include the 
>>>> beautiful design work that shows under transparent enamels.?
>>>> 
>>>> Historically the word enamel meant glass but today it seems to refer to 
>>>> any shiny color. The correct terminology is?vitreous?[glass] enamel. It is 
>>>> a true glass that melts and fuses around 1400 degrees F.? Enamel can be 
>>>> obtained as opaque, translucent or transparent. The colors are created by 
>>>> the addition of metallic oxides to the glass.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ?
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 8:31 PM Gary R. Brierton <gbrierton@hotmail.com> 
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> OK...let's try and clear this up.? As I understand it, the "flat wings 
>>>> with the Austin-Healey script" commonly seen on BN1, BN2 and (I don't know 
>>>> when it stopped), had red paint of unknown shade in the etched out 
>>>> lettering.? Along came the larger badges with MKII or whatever, 
>>>> incloisonne. THEN, to really screw us up, those badges returned to red 
>>>> paint of unknown shade, seemingly during BJ8 production.? As was true with 
>>>> almost everything involving our cars, the exact change VIN number for all 
>>>> of this is largely indeterminate, at least as far as trim pieces are 
>>>> concerned...oh, and some major body parts, like wings with one? or two 
>>>> signaling lights, swag lines, whatever.? Reliable reports (from D.M.H.!) 
>>>> state that the guiding principle in assembling our cars was "use up what 
>>>> was on hand".I claim no expertise beyond owning Austin-Healeys and 
>>>> associating with their owners for over 50 years (so, mainly the 6 cylinder 
>>>> cars).Take it away, Curt, Randy, Steve, et. al.?
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
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>>>> 
>>>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys 
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>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
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>>>> 
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>> 
>>>> Message: 5
>>>> Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2018 14:53:33 +0100
>>>> From: "Ian Hey" <rianhey@btinternet.com>
>>>> To: "'J. Scott Morris'" <jstmorris@yahoo.com>, "'Patrick Quinn'"
>>>>  <p_cquinn@tpg.com.au>, "'Michael Oritt'" <michael.oritt@gmail.com>,
>>>>  "'Healey List'" <healeys@autox.team.net>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Healeys] Badge on bonnet ? Hyphenated or Not  [was
>>>>  ?Paint type and color?]
>>>> Message-ID: <002701d46945$754282a0$5fc787e0$@btinternet.com>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>> 
>>>> I am not sure how to reply to the whole list, but my BJ7, Chassis No 
>>>> 25212, Body number 70069, only just over 100 from the end of BJ7 
>>>> production has a hyphen in the badge.  I bought the 1963 car in 1977 and 
>>>> believe that the badge was probably original.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Interestingly there are some BJ8 features on the car.  Eg: the seal down 
>>>> the windscreen and on the rear of the front wing is one piece, as BJ8.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Ian Hey
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> From: Healeys <healeys-bounces@autox.team.net> On Behalf Of J. Scott Morris
>>>> Sent: 20 October 2018 17:49
>>>> To: Patrick Quinn <p_cquinn@tpg.com.au>; Michael Oritt 
>>>> <michael.oritt@gmail.com>; Healey List <healeys@autox.team.net>
>>>> Subject: [Healeys] Badge on bonnet ? Hyphenated or Not [was ?Paint type 
>>>> and color?]
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Good Day;  The issue of Austin Healey being hyphenated or not was 
>>>> discussed some time ago.  
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Attached is my file of those discussions.  Each page should be read from 
>>>> the bottom to the top since the oldest email is at the bottom and most 
>>>> recent at the top.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Hope this provides some help on the topic.
>>>> 
>>>> --Scott Morris; Simcoe, Ontario, Canada    - Keep Smiling, Murphy Lives
>>>> 
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>>>> 
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>> 
>>>> Message: 6
>>>> Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 14:02:54 +0100
>>>> From: <simon.lachlan@alexarevel.plus.com>
>>>> To: "Healeys" <healeys@autox.team.net>
>>>> Subject: [Healeys]  Paint type
>>>> Message-ID: <000201d46ad0$b73913e0$25ab3ba0$@alexarevel.plus.com>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>> 
>>>> As I said in a previous email, PamelaDavid did refer to the process as 
>>>> ?cloisonn??. (No hyphen!).  
>>>> 
>>>> Simon
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
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>>>> 
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>> 
>>>> Message: 7
>>>> Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 08:01:28 -0700
>>>> From: Bob Spidell <bspidell@comcast.net>
>>>> To: healeys@autox.team.net
>>>> Subject: Re: [Healeys] Paint type and color
>>>> Message-ID: <42f07c83-3073-11b5-5dd9-658b613193ce@comcast.net>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"
>>>> 
>>>> "... *just buy a quality one from Moss or other vendors"*
>>>> 
>>>> FWIW, I've bought several from different vendors--including Moss 
>>>> IIRC--and, as someone pointed out, the coloring (enamel, paint, 
>>>> whatever) doesn't last because it was applied to chrome.
>>>> **
>>>> 
>>>>> On 10/22/2018 7:11 AM, Curtis Arndt wrote:
>>>>> Steve and Fellow Listers,
>>>>> 
>>>>> There are two great vendors in the US.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Maxwell Enamels, Vista, CA...
>>>>> 
>>>>> http://www.maxwellenamels.com/Home_Page.html
>>>>> 
>>>>> I am a friend of the owner Karla Maxwell (25 years) and she has done 
>>>>> work for me an I have done work for her (Bakelite restoration).
>>>>> 
>>>>> *She is expensive, and for most badges just buy a quality one from 
>>>>> Moss or other vendors.*
>>>>> 
>>>>> Moss Motors has a very nice one for $134.00, $239.99 for MKII badges 
>>>>> and $249.99 for MKIII badges... Less on sale.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Expect to pay $250-$350 plus to have your original restored.
>>>>> 
>>>>> https://mossmotors.com/badge-austin-healey-wings?assoc=6725
>>>>> 
>>>>> https://mossmotors.com/badge-austin-healey-mk-ii?assoc=7568
>>>>> 
>>>>> https://mossmotors.com/badge-austin-healey-mk-iii?assoc=7569
>>>>> 
>>>>> The other vendor is Emblemagic in Grand River, OH...
>>>>> 
>>>>> http://emblemagic.com/
>>>>> 
>>>>> Ray Geschke is the owner, and also very knowledgeable.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Curt
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 3:49 AM BJ8Healeys <sbyers@ec.rr.com 
>>>>> <mailto:sbyers@ec.rr.com>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>  There still seems to be some confusion between the _type of
>>>>>  construction_ of the badge and the _material_ that is in the
>>>>>  colored part.
>>>>> 
>>>>>  Cloisonn? and champlev? are jewelers' terms that refer to how the
>>>>>  badge is constructed, while the red material is either "vitreous
>>>>>  enamel" or paint.
>>>>> 
>>>>>  From the Merriam-Webster dictionary:
>>>>> 
>>>>>  *Definition of /cloisonn??(adjective)/*
>>>>> 
>>>>>  *: *of, relating to, or being a style of enamel decoration in
>>>>>  which the enamel is applied and fired in _raised_ cells (as of
>>>>>  soldered wires) on a usually metal background ? compare champlev?
>>>>>  <https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/champlev%C3%A9>
>>>>> 
>>>>>  *Definition of /champlev? (adjective) /*
>>>>> 
>>>>>  *: *of, relating to, or being a style of enamel decoration in
>>>>>  which the enamel is applied and fired in cells _depressed_ (as by
>>>>>  incising) into a metal background ? compare cloisonn?
>>>>>  <https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cloisonn%C3%A9>
>>>>> 
>>>>>  *Definition of /vitreous enamel (noun) /*
>>>>> 
>>>>>  *: *a fired-on opaque glassy coating on steel or other metals
>>>>> 
>>>>>  ? called also porcelain enamel
>>>>> 
>>>>>  Based on these definitions, the BJ7/BJ8 badge _construction_ is
>>>>>  champlev?, while the red _material_ is vitreous enamel or paint.?
>>>>>  Some have claimed that their badge never had either material but
>>>>>  were plain chrome.
>>>>> 
>>>>>  Steve Byers
>>>>> 
>>>>>  HBJ8L/36666
>>>>> 
>>>>>  BJ8 Registry
>>>>> 
>>>>>  AHCA Delegate at Large
>>>>> 
>>>>>  Havelock, NC
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
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>>>> 
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>> 
>>>> Message: 8
>>>> Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 17:56:52 +0100
>>>> From: Andy Sneddon <sneddon@xsmail.com>
>>>> To: <simon.lachlan@alexarevel.plus.com>,    Healeys
>>>>  <healeys@autox.team.net>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Healeys] Paint type
>>>> Message-ID: <4F755E0A-929D-454D-B86F-897F9F3A8A7E@xsmail.com>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>> 
>>>> Just had a look at my invoice paperwork from Derron (Pamela David Enamels 
>>>> / Badgecraft.co.uk) and he has described the process carried out on my 
>>>> badge as ? stripped, re-enamelled, chrome finish ?.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ? and I can only say that they did an excellent job.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Andy
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> From: Healeys <healeys-bounces@autox.team.net> on behalf of 
>>>> <simon.lachlan@alexarevel.plus.com>
>>>> Date: Tuesday, 23 October 2018 at 14:52
>>>> To: Healeys <healeys@autox.team.net>
>>>> Subject: [Healeys] Paint type
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> As I said in a previous email, PamelaDavid did refer to the process as 
>>>> ?cloisonn??. (No hyphen!).  
>>>> 
>>>> Simon
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net 
>>>> http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.75 Archive: 
>>>> http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys http://autox.team.net/archive 
>>>> Healeys@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys 
>>>> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
>>>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/sneddon@xsmail.com 
>>>> 
>>>> -------------- next part --------------
>>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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>>>> <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/healeys/attachments/20181023/cf8623e9/attachment-0001.html>
>>>> 
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>> 
>>>> Subject: Digest Footer
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Healeys mailing list
>>>> Healeys@autox.team.net
>>>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>> 
>>>> End of Healeys Digest, Vol 11, Issue 324
>>>> ****************************************
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ------------------------------
>>> 
>>> Message: 2
>>> Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 16:19:29 -0500
>>> From: "Frank Magnusson" <fmags@cox.net>
>>> To: <healeys@autox.team.net>
>>> Subject: Re: [Healeys] paint type
>>> Message-ID: <00a101d46b16$15f30e50$41d92af0$@cox.net>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I sure hope that a concours guide isn?t written or modified like this.  This
>>> is just a bunch of here say over email.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> What you need to do, if it even matters, is to take an original badge to a
>>> badge restorer that does both enamel and cloisonn? and have them evaluate it
>>> and determine how it was made.  That should be documented on that companies
>>> letterhead and that documentation should be used to either update the
>>> concours guide or leave it as is.  If that is not how concours guides are
>>> done, than I?ve lost all respect for concours.  Without that, its just a
>>> bunch of guys bickering claiming to be ?The Expert?.  It should not be based
>>> on some generic 25 year old statement that ?auto badges are enamel?, either.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I am no expert, and do not claim to be.  However, I just took an original
>>> cloisonn? badge that I have from a 1940s aircraft restoration that I?m doing
>>> that has red in it, and compared it to my non-hyphenated Austin Healey Mk
>>> III badge and they look very similar.  To this untrained eye, I cannot tell,
>>> but it?s not obvious.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Take one to an expert or several experts.  Not many people are doing
>>> cloisonn? repair anymore; I have checked to repair my aircraft badge, and I
>>> am not sure if there are any in the U.S., but it?s been awhile since I
>>> checked.  A badge restoration shop that does both cloisonn? and enamel
>>> repair is the only qualified place to know for sure.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> My unsolicited 2 cents.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ---
>>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
>>> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>>> -------------- next part --------------
>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>>> URL: 
>>> <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/healeys/attachments/20181023/e838622f/attachment-0001.html>
>>> 
>>> ------------------------------
>>> 
>>> Message: 3
>>> Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 21:22:25 -0700
>>> From: Bob Spidell <bspidell@comcast.net>
>>> To: healeys@autox.team.net
>>> Subject: Re: [Healeys] Lift for Healeys
>>> Message-ID: <c7c79a42-e435-29cb-f09b-4b8de505833e@comcast.net>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>>> 
>>> I've been a bit distracted by recent events, but I'm still researching 
>>> lifts.? I called the '800' number for Greg Smith lifts, and talked a guy 
>>> that (I think) was a distributor in Riverside, CA.? I mentioned I would 
>>> prefer an American-made lift and he let slip--or was just being 
>>> forthright, I can't say for sure--that all lifts save Mohawk brand were 
>>> made in China (probably, they are made in China in one or a few 
>>> factories but are distributed under various brands; the Greg Smith site 
>>> cites a 'Texas company;'? check it out for some 'dirt' on lifts).? I'd 
>>> not heard of Mohawk but, of course, I immediately stated googlin'. The 
>>> Mohawk site has issues, but has some, er, 'interesting' information (see 
>>> here:
>>> 
>>> http://mohawkliftpics.com/product-pictures/2-post-lifts/a-7/
>>> 
>>> ... and look, in particular, under 'Comparison Photo Galleries'
>>> 
>>> One option is for 4 wheel cradles that effectively turn the lift into a 
>>> 4-post.?? I really like this idea.
>>> 
>>> The Mohawk site doesn't list any prices, so it's one of those 'if you 
>>> have to ask' things.? But, I'm OK buying a cheap made-in-China tool from 
>>> Harbor Freight that probably will leak air but I might use 6 times in my 
>>> lifetime, but getting under a lift with plastic wheels and cables, and 
>>> welds that break makes me nervous.
>>> 
>>> Just passing what I've learned along.? This is a significant investment 
>>> for me, and I'm inclined to spend extra up front for peace of mind.
>>> 
>>> Bob
>>> 
>>> 
>>>>> On 10/14/2018 12:16 PM, Kent McLean wrote:
>>>>> Bob Spidell wrote:
>>>>> Space isn't an issue; my dad built a large 'barn'--that's what it's
>>>>> shaped like, and what we call it--but it's really a large shop
>>>>> URL: 
>>>>> <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/healeys/attachments/20181014/0d66a155/attachment-0001.jpe>
>>>> Wow. Who did you have to kill for that?  I mean, Wow, nice shop.
>>>> 
>>>> A few years ago we bought a house with a 32x24 barn (with a few stalls for 
>>>> horses).  A year later my wife peeked in and said, ?It looks like we?ve 
>>>> lived here for 20 years.?  I really need to start tossing some of my 
>>>> "treasures" so my kids don?t have to.
>>>> 
>>>> -
>>>> Kent McLean
>>>> ?56 100 BN2
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ------------------------------
>>> 
>>> Message: 4
>>> Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 14:18:20 +0000
>>> From: Richard Collins <gonnagitcha90@hotmail.com>
>>> To: Bob Spidell <bspidell@comcast.net>
>>> Cc: "healeys@autox.team.net" <healeys@autox.team.net>
>>> Subject: Re: [Healeys] Lift for Healeys
>>> Message-ID:
>>>   
>>> <SN6PR19MB22565C3FDECC279F731B3653BFF60@SN6PR19MB2256.namprd19.prod.outlook.com>
>>> 
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>> 
>>> My Rotary Revolution 4post was Made in America when I bought and assembled 
>>> myself 10-12 years ago.
>>> I did substantial research and found the critical points, Chinese or not, 
>>> was the weight of the steel used and the locking mechanism being failsafe 
>>> as possible. A Chinese one I saw had ramps which Bent when driven on and 
>>> off with a vehicle whose weight was well within its specs.
>>> I went to several ?good guys? hot rod shows and looked at various models on 
>>> display. The quality differences are noticeable. The higher quality ones 
>>> have certifications and insurance coverage as well.
>>> Mine has paid for itself many times over.
>>> Regards,
>>> Richard C
>>> BN7 440
>>> And several other brands
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Oct 24, 2018, at 1:23 AM, Bob Spidell <bspidell@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> I've been a bit distracted by recent events, but I'm still researching 
>>>> lifts.  I called the '800' number for Greg Smith lifts, and talked a guy 
>>>> that (I think) was a distributor in Riverside, CA.  I mentioned I would 
>>>> prefer an American-made lift and he let slip--or was just being 
>>>> forthright, I can't say for sure--that all lifts save Mohawk brand were 
>>>> made in China (probably, they are made in China in one or a few factories 
>>>> but are distributed under various brands; the Greg Smith site cites a 
>>>> 'Texas company;'  check it out for some 'dirt' on lifts).  I'd not heard 
>>>> of Mohawk but, of course, I immediately stated googlin'. The Mohawk site 
>>>> has issues, but has some, er, 'interesting' information (see here:
>>>> 
>>>> http://mohawkliftpics.com/product-pictures/2-post-lifts/a-7/
>>>> 
>>>> ... and look, in particular, under 'Comparison Photo Galleries'
>>>> 
>>>> One option is for 4 wheel cradles that effectively turn the lift into a 
>>>> 4-post.   I really like this idea.
>>>> 
>>>> The Mohawk site doesn't list any prices, so it's one of those 'if you have 
>>>> to ask' things.  But, I'm OK buying a cheap made-in-China tool from Harbor 
>>>> Freight that probably will leak air but I might use 6 times in my 
>>>> lifetime, but getting under a lift with plastic wheels and cables, and 
>>>> welds that break makes me nervous.
>>>> 
>>>> Just passing what I've learned along.  This is a significant investment 
>>>> for me, and I'm inclined to spend extra up front for peace of mind.
>>>> 
>>>> Bob
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>>> On 10/14/2018 12:16 PM, Kent McLean wrote:
>>>>>> Bob Spidell wrote:
>>>>>> Space isn't an issue; my dad built a large 'barn'--that's what it's
>>>>>> shaped like, and what we call it--but it's really a large shop
>>>>>> URL: 
>>>>>> <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/healeys/attachments/20181014/0d66a155/attachment-0001.jpe>
>>>>> Wow. Who did you have to kill for that?  I mean, Wow, nice shop.
>>>>> 
>>>>> A few years ago we bought a house with a 32x24 barn (with a few stalls 
>>>>> for horses).  A year later my wife peeked in and said, ?It looks like 
>>>>> we?ve lived here for 20 years.?  I really need to start tossing some of 
>>>>> my "treasures" so my kids don?t have to.
>>>>> 
>>>>> -
>>>>> Kent McLean
>>>>> ?56 100 BN2
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>>> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
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>>>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys 
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>>> 
>>> ------------------------------
>>> 
>>> Subject: Digest Footer
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Healeys mailing list
>>> Healeys@autox.team.net
>>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ------------------------------
>>> 
>>> End of Healeys Digest, Vol 11, Issue 325
>>> ****************************************
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
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