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[Healeys] Hydrogen cars

Subject: [Healeys] Hydrogen cars
From: JPayne at ThorCon.net (Jonas Payne)
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 08:16:22 -0700
References: <AANLkTikb1p2PMHe0mCszjyVXG+r_cVaq+zTJqEdxh1qp@mail.gmail.com> <AANLkTi=VAQEXn1tw1suDkERESb+uSs3pHAXyQ7DHCWyV@mail.gmail.com> <744407513350EE4B85B11A33F329226E5C0D49@otnoex3.onthenetoffice.com>
Richard,

Whereas you are entirely correct about the 2nd law here, there is a
serious error in that You have assumed that your cars engine is working
at 100% efficiency all ready, which as we all know isn't the case.

The fact of the matter is that there are lots of opportunities to
increase the efficiency of converting fuel to power through recycling
heat, conversion/storage and optimization of air/fuel ratios etc.  We
use these opportunities all the time in industrial applications.

In most cases your generator/alternator is generating electrical power
that doesn't get used in normal driving in your average car, it might as
well get used for something, otherwise, it's wasted.

I for one fail to see how an SU carb would use less fuel while taking in
gaseous H2, and I also fail to see how a fuel injected car would know
the difference either.  By injecting H2, I think you would get more
"bang" for the same volume of fuel and "air", but don't see how any
volume of fuel is saved.





Jonas Payne
PBR
Cell:   (702) 358-5084



Fred,
The problem with all of these videos about H2 on youtube is a little
thing called the second law of thermodynamics.  The second law is not
only a good idea, but it is the law, and it is not subject to repeal.
Simply put you cannot get more work out of a machine than you put in.
If you did, you would have perpetual motion.  It is a commonly accepted
fact that perpetual motion is impossible.* So you put fuel into your
tank.  You burn the fuel in the engine to do work.  You get X miles per
gallon.
OK, now you add a rig in your car somewhere to dissociate water into H2
and O2.  To do this you need electricity.  Electricity comes from your
alternator.  So now your alternator will have to work harder to generate
the necessary juice, and this puts an extra load on the engine.  This
causes you to burn more fuel so you have the electricity to dissociate
the water.  You fuel mileage is now X MPH - A (the amount of energy
needed to run the alternator flat out)  You have decreased your fuel
mileage.
Nice.
But wait we are going to burn the H2, you say.  Yes you are, and H2 has
less energy in it than gasoline. (look it up) Plus, your engine is
nowhere near 100% efficient, and your alternator is not 100% efficient
either.  This means that your fuel mileage will go down by more than you
will recover by burning the H2.  To pretend any different would violate
the second law of thermodynamics.
Anyway you look it you lose, or more simply put There ain't no such
thing as a free lunch.
Rick


*Interesting trivia note.  The US Patent office does not require a
working model of a proposed patent, unless it is what they judge to be a
perpetual motion machine.  In that case you have to submit a working
model.  No one has ever gotten a patent on a perpetual motion machine.
This should tell you something.

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