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Re: Flat-topped Friction Circle?

To: woods@mae.uta.edu
Subject: Re: Flat-topped Friction Circle?
From: GSMnow@aol.com
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 11:24:23 EDT
In a message dated 4/22/02 9:57:04 AM Central Daylight Time, 
woods@mae.uta.edu writes:

<< Good discussion.  I would like to clarify one thing.  You said >>
 
 >If you had unlimited power available, you should be able to make the top
 >of the friction circle fill in similar to 
 >the bottom. Obviously, brakes have more "power" than the engine.
 
<< This statement is true only for well-balanced 4-wheel drive cars.  In
 two-wheel drive cars, only two tires are contributing to acceleration
 whereas four tires are contributing to braking. >>

Yes, I skipped this point, that is what I get for writing while half asleep. 

<< Each tire can only hold a
 certain amount of force before it breaks loose.  Therefore, considering
 weight transfer, a rear-wheel drive can get about 70% of its braking g's
 and a front-wheel drive car can get about 40% of its braking g's in
 acceleration.  These numbers depend upon weight distribution, CG location,
 wheelbase, and g's of acceleration. >>

Your numbers very close to what I have seen. Our 95 Celica, at VERY low 
speeds in first gear, would just hit about .4 G before wheel spin, and my 
beast turbo rear drive Celica with 300 hp has hit over .65 G acceleration in 
second gear before wheel spin. It sure would be nice to hit 70, and I think 
the car can do it. Too much camber on the rear tires is hurting a bit.
 
<< I agree with you that brakes have more "power" and my observation is most
 folks don't use enough brakes.  If your braking g's don't match your
 lateral g's, then you need to adjust the brake bias or just use more
 brakes...  cheapest trick to faster times. >>

I know I never trust the brakes enough. Geez slaps me in the face with that 
every run. Just yesterday at our eevnt, we had WET conditions, and it made 
for serious fun diving into the braking zones from over 60 mph. For the wet 
conditions, I was just about reaching lockup at all four wheels together. It 
was no where near 1 G on the water though. On dry pavement, I seem to lock 
fronts first, but I have no easy to adjust brake bias control. I have messed 
with different brake pads fron to rear to balane it some, and it is far beter 
now. Carbotech greens on the back is way too much rear brake on my car.
 
<< Incidently, if you like "math", my book "Modeling and Simulation of Dynamic
 Systems" from Prentice Hall has a complete analysis of a braking system and
 how to calculate the bias bar setting in Chapter 10. >>

I'll have to take a look. My libraray of car tuning books is getting pretty 
good, but you can never have too much info.
 
<< -Dr. Bob Woods
 University of Texas at Arlington >>

Well, I am not a Dr., I just study this stuff for my own knowledge. I helped 
my friend work on his SAE car back (oh wow) 17 years ago. My field of work 
has nothing to do with cars. I design, install, and service movie theatre 
projection and sound systems. I have now helped build and tune about 5 cars. 
I found Geez and driving schools are a much bigger performance improvement 
than $1000 shocks.

Gary M.

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