--===============8235349974256699500==
--Apple-Mail=_19780A2E-DB03-4E71-B208-C6692C2CF05C
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
charset=utf-8
Indexing in this case means aligning the crankshaft in the grinding =
machine so that as the crank is rotated, the journal center is the =
center of rotation. In a four cylinder triump crank journals two and =
three, and journals one and four are in the same plane. So the grinder =
aligns the machine so 1 and 4 are concentric, grinds those two, then =
indexes 2 and 3, and grinds those. In a six there are three sets of =
concentric pairs. Any indexing error means the two journals ground with =
error may reach TDC at a different degree of crank rotation (offset =
horizontally to the main journal plane), or at a different height above =
the center of crank rotation (offset verticallly), or both.=20
> On May 27, 2016, at 10:13 AM, TR3driver@ca.rr.com =
>=20
> I'm a bit confused, Steve (not unusual these days). When you say =
"indexing", I think of rotational position; which would affect timing, =
but not piston/head clearance.=20
> Are you saying that the length of the throws (radial position) can be =
off as well?
>=20
> -- Randall
>=20
> On 27 May 2016 10:45 a.m., Steve Yott <tr4@wi.rr.com =
> Since most of you like to play the =E2=80=9Cdeath with pistons=E2=80=9D =
game keep in mind one additional factor as you are building your =
engines. Over the years I have found crankshafts which were reground =
and the throws were not very precisely indexed. When a crank is setup =
on the grinding machine for grinding rod journals it is set and reset by =
the number of =E2=80=9Cthrows=E2=80=9D=E2=80=A6 on a 4 cylinder engine =
the grinder has to be indexed twice and on the 6 cylinder, 3 times. If =
the grinder, either the person or the machine is not perfectly accurate =
you will see variations of TDC for the throws! I have seen these =
deviations be as much as .006=E2=80=9D when a good grinder will hold =
dimensions within .001=E2=80=9D. =20
> =20
> So, if you are running close squishes=E2=80=A6. Measure TDC on #1 and =
#2 on the four cylinder and #1, #2 and #3 on the 6 motors=E2=80=A6.. =
this way to can make sure your throws and TDC=E2=80=99s are spot on.
> =20
> Steve Yott
> =20
> =20
> From: John Styduhar [mailto:johnstydo@gmail.com =
> Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2016 4:32 PM
> Cc: Charly Mitchel; Steve Yott; Jim Gray; Triumph 'Friends of Triumph
> Subject: Re: [Fot] TR6 Piston / Head Clearance
> =20
> My forged pistons are .006" in the hole at TDC and I use a .030" thick =
solid copper head gasket and stock crank at 6200 rpm. When removing the =
head, the piston tops are clean in the squish area and it looks like a =
slight indentation at the ledge of the combustion chamber, probably from =
piston rock when the engine is cold. =20
> =20
> On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 3:23 PM, Gregmogdoc@surfnetusa.com =
> IN our experience with TR-4, and English Ford Kent
> racing engines the safe clearance between the head
> and the piston crown is .035". A TR-4 with billet
> rods will just "touch" the head at 6800 rpm with
> .026" clearance. It will "hit" the head hard enough
> to make an imprint in the piston crown at .029"
> I would say that the TR-6 crank probably flexes more
> than a TR-4 does at high rpm. You would like to have
> a little safety margin, I would think. I would not
> run less than .035", maybe even a couple more if the
> engine is going to run over 6,000 rpm.
>=20
>=20
> Greg Solow
> The Engine Room
> Sports Car Specialists
> Santa Cruz, CA 95060
> 831 429-1800
>=20
>=20
>=20
> ------- Original Message -------
> =46rom : Charly[mailto:charly@mitchelplumbing.com =
> Sent : 5/25/2016 6:52:35 PM
> Subject : RE: Re: [Fot] TR6 Piston / Head Clearance
>=20
> I tried b u idling a TR6 motor with a pop-up on the
> piston on c e. Instead of having the pistons cut
> down to zero clearance I left them about .005" high.
> It eventually bent the rod and broken it. The
> pistons had an imprint of the combustion chamber on
> them. I learned that at 6000 rpm's, there is
> enough deflection in the crank to let them hit the head.
> I believe most head gaskets are .0035" aren't they?
> Charly Mitchel
> TR6 #44
>=20
> On Wed 25/05/16 11:31 AM , toodamnfunky@comcast.net =
> > The rattling is likely piston slap on cold forged
> pistons. Did it go
> > away when it warmed up and came back on the next
> cold start ?jim
> >
> > -------------------------
> > FROM: "Steve Yott"
> > TO: "Robert Lang" , "FOT List"
> > SENT: Wednesday, May 25, 2016 11:27:27 AM
> > SUBJECT: Re: [Fot] TR6 Piston / Head Clearance
> > I doubt that your .030 squish would cause the
> rattling as you
> > describe. The deflection caused by the crank, rod
> and piston in order
> > to hit the head at .030 would be way up in the
> rpm=E2=80=99s like 8000!
> > Did the rattling go away after all the parts warmed
> up and oil was
> > well disbursed or is it still rattling? My first
> guess would be
> > either the engine was not pre-oiled or you have
> loose piston pin
> > bushings=E2=80=A6. Were the rods rebuilt with new bushings
> fitted to about
> > .0003?
> > Steve Yott
> > FROM: Fot [ mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.net =
> BEHALF OF Robert
> > Lang
> > SENT: Wednesday, May 25, 2016 11:29 AM
> > TO: FOT List
> > SUBJECT: Re: [Fot] TR6 Piston / Head Clearance
> > Hi,
> > Where I was going with the query was this: I had a
> late block
> > "decked" with the intent of making the deck flat.
> The machinist took
> > of .032 to accomplish the goal. With a head gasket
> installed and the
> > head torqued, the clearance in the squish area is .030.
> >
> > I had initially wanted only about .025 removed, but
> we had to shave
> > an extra .007 to get rid of the fire ring cuts.
> >
> > On initial startup, the motor sounded like it might
> be "rattling" and
> > I'm trying to figure out why.
> >
> > When I used a stethescope on the block, everything
> sounds okay - no
> > rapping and the valve train sounds "normal" and
> there were no weird
> > sounds coming from the crank.
> >
> > I guess where I'm going with this is: if piston /
> head clearance is
> > too tight, I'll see some sort of indication on the
> piston, right?
> >
> > TIA for any sage advice.
> >
> > This is my first experience "decking" a block. I'd
> like to get it
> > right, I don't have the resources to start a new
> block from scratch.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Bob Lang
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> > http://www.fot-racing.com <http://www.fot-racing.com/>
> >
> > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html =
<http://www.team.net/donate.html>
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> >
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<http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/toodamnfunky@comcast.net>
>=20
> >
> >
>=20
> _______________________________________________
>=20
> http://www.fot-racing.com <http://www.fot-racing.com/>
>=20
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html =
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>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
>=20
> http://www.fot-racing.com <http://www.fot-racing.com/>
>=20
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html =
<http://www.team.net/donate.html>
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive <http://www.team.net/archive>
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>=20
> =20
> _______________________________________________
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> http://www.fot-racing.com <http://www.fot-racing.com/>
>=20
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--Apple-Mail=_19780A2E-DB03-4E71-B208-C6692C2CF05C
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Indexing in this case means aligning the crankshaft in the =
grinding machine so that as the crank is rotated, the journal center is =
the center of rotation. In a four cylinder triump crank journals two and =
three, and journals one and four are in the same plane. So the grinder =
aligns the machine so 1 and 4 are concentric, grinds those two, then =
indexes 2 and 3, and grinds those. In a six there are three sets of =
concentric pairs. Any indexing error means the two journals ground with =
error may reach TDC at a different degree of crank rotation (offset =
horizontally to the main journal plane), or at a different height above =
the center of crank rotation (offset verticallly), or both. <br =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On May 27, 2016, at 10:13 AM, <a =
href=3D"mailto:TR3driver@ca.rr.com"; class=3D"">TR3driver@ca.rr.com</a> =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><p =
dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">I'm a bit =
confused, Steve (not unusual these days). When you say "indexing", I =
think of rotational position; which would affect timing, but not =
piston/head clearance.<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=3D"">Are you =
saying that the length of the throws (radial position) can be off as =
well?</p><p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D"">-- Randall</p><div class=3D"quote" style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;">On 27 May 2016 10:45 a.m., Steve Yott <<a =
href=3D"mailto:tr4@wi.rr.com"; style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">tr4@wi.rr.com</a>> wrote:<br =
type=3D"attribution" class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"quote" =
style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; =
padding-left: 1ex;"><div class=3D"Section1" style=3D"page: =
Section1;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Since most of you like to play the =
=E2=80=9Cdeath with pistons=E2=80=9D game keep in mind one additional =
factor as you are building your engines. Over the years I have =
found crankshafts which were reground and the throws were not very =
precisely indexed. When a crank is setup on the grinding machine =
for grinding rod journals it is set and reset by the number of =
=E2=80=9Cthrows=E2=80=9D=E2=80=A6 on a 4 cylinder engine the grinder has =
to be indexed twice and on the 6 cylinder, 3 times. If the =
grinder, either the person or the machine is not perfectly accurate you =
will see variations of TDC for the throws! I have seen these =
deviations be as much as .006=E2=80=9D when a good grinder will hold =
dimensions within .001=E2=80=9D. <span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""> </o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">So, if you are running =
close squishes=E2=80=A6. Measure TDC on #1 and #2 on the four cylinder =
and #1, #2 and #3 on the 6 motors=E2=80=A6.. this way to can make sure =
your throws and TDC=E2=80=99s are spot on.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""> </o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Steve Yott<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""> </o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""> </o:p></span></div><div style=3D"border-style: solid =
none none; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-width: 1pt; =
padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Tahoma, sans-serif;" class=3D"">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span>John Styduhar [<a =
href=3D"mailto:johnstydo@gmail.com"; style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mailto:johnstydo@gmail.com</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span>Thursday, May 26, 2016 4:32 =
PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:Gregmogdoc@surfnetusa.com"; style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">Gregmogdoc@surfnetusa.com</a><br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span>Charly Mitchel; Steve Yott; =
Jim Gray; Triumph 'Friends of Triumph<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Fot] TR6 Piston / Head =
Clearance<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""> </o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">My forged pistons are =
.006" in the hole at TDC and I use a .030" thick solid copper head =
gasket and stock crank at 6200 rpm. When removing the head, the piston =
tops are clean in the squish area and it looks like a slight indentation =
at the ledge of the combustion chamber, probably from piston rock when =
the engine is cold. <o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""> </o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 3:23 PM,<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:Gregmogdoc@surfnetusa.com"; style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">Gregmogdoc@surfnetusa.com</a><span=
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><<a =
href=3D"mailto:Gregmogdoc@surfnetusa.com"; target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">Gregmogdoc@surfnetusa.com</a>> wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">IN our =
experience with TR-4, and English Ford Kent<br class=3D"">racing engines =
the safe clearance between the head<br class=3D"">and the piston crown =
is .035". A TR-4 with billet<br class=3D"">rods will just "touch" =
the head at 6800 rpm with<br class=3D"">.026" clearance. It will "hit" =
the head hard enough<br class=3D"">to make an imprint in the piston =
crown at .029"<br class=3D"">I would say that the TR-6 crank probably =
flexes more<br class=3D"">than a TR-4 does at high rpm. You would like =
to have<br class=3D"">a little safety margin, I would think. I would =
not<br class=3D"">run less than .035", maybe even a couple more if =
the<br class=3D"">engine is going to run over 6,000 rpm.<br class=3D""><br=
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Greg Solow<br class=3D"">The Engine Room<br =
class=3D"">Sports Car Specialists<br class=3D"">Santa Cruz, CA 95060<br =
class=3D"">831 429-1800<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">------- Original Message -------<br class=3D"">From =
: Charly[mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:charly@mitchelplumbing.com"; =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">charly@mitchelplumbing.com</a>]<br class=3D"">Sent =
: 5/25/2016 6:52:35 PM<br class=3D"">To =
:<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:tr4@wi.rr.com"; style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">tr4@wi.rr.com</a>;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:toodamnfunky@comcast.net"; style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">toodamnfunky@comcast.net</a><br =
class=3D"">Cc :<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:fot@autox.team.net"; style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">fot@autox.team.net</a><br =
class=3D"">Subject : RE: Re: [Fot] TR6 Piston / Head Clearance<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""> I tried b u idling a TR6 motor with a =
pop-up on the<br class=3D"">piston on c e. Instead of having the pistons =
cut<br class=3D"">down to zero clearance I left them about .005" =
high.<br class=3D"">It eventually bent the rod and broken it. The<br =
class=3D"">pistons had an imprint of the combustion chamber on<br =
class=3D"">them. I learned that at 6000 rpm's, there is<br =
class=3D"">enough deflection in the crank to let them hit the head.<br =
class=3D"">I believe most head gaskets are .0035" aren't they?<br =
class=3D"">Charly Mitchel<br class=3D"">TR6 #44<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">On Wed 25/05/16 11:31 AM ,<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:toodamnfunky@comcast.net"; style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">toodamnfunky@comcast.net</a><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span>sent:<br class=3D"">> =
The rattling is likely piston slap on cold forged<br class=3D"">pistons. =
Did it go<br class=3D"">> away when it warmed up and came back on the =
next<br class=3D"">cold start ?jim<br class=3D"">><br class=3D"">> =
-------------------------<br class=3D"">> FROM: "Steve Yott"<br =
class=3D"">> TO: "Robert Lang" , "FOT List"<br class=3D"">> SENT: =
Wednesday, May 25, 2016 11:27:27 AM<br class=3D"">> SUBJECT: Re: =
[Fot] TR6 Piston / Head Clearance<br class=3D"">> I doubt that your =
.030 squish would cause the<br class=3D"">rattling as you<br =
class=3D"">> describe. The deflection caused by the crank, =
rod<br class=3D"">and piston in order<br class=3D"">> to hit the head =
at .030 would be way up in the<br class=3D"">rpm=E2=80=99s like 8000!<br =
class=3D"">> Did the rattling go away after all the parts warmed<br =
class=3D"">up and oil was<br class=3D"">> well disbursed or is it =
still rattling? My first<br class=3D"">guess would be<br =
class=3D"">> either the engine was not pre-oiled or you have<br =
class=3D"">loose piston pin<br class=3D"">> bushings=E2=80=A6. =
Were the rods rebuilt with new bushings<br class=3D"">fitted to about<br =
class=3D"">> .0003?<br class=3D"">> Steve Yott<br class=3D"">> =
FROM: Fot [ mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.net"; =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">fot-bounces@autox.team.net</a><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span>] ON<br class=3D"">BEHALF =
OF Robert<br class=3D"">> Lang<br class=3D"">> SENT: Wednesday, =
May 25, 2016 11:29 AM<br class=3D"">> TO: FOT List<br class=3D"">> =
SUBJECT: Re: [Fot] TR6 Piston / Head Clearance<br class=3D"">> Hi,<br =
class=3D"">> Where I was going with the query was this: I had a<br =
class=3D"">late block<br class=3D"">> "decked" with the intent of =
making the deck flat.<br class=3D"">The machinist took<br class=3D"">> =
of .032 to accomplish the goal. With a head gasket<br class=3D"">installed=
and the<br class=3D"">> head torqued, the clearance in the squish =
area is .030.<br class=3D"">><br class=3D"">> I had initially =
wanted only about .025 removed, but<br class=3D"">we had to shave<br =
class=3D"">> an extra .007 to get rid of the fire ring cuts.<br =
class=3D"">><br class=3D"">> On initial startup, the motor sounded =
like it might<br class=3D"">be "rattling" and<br class=3D"">> I'm =
trying to figure out why.<br class=3D"">><br class=3D"">> When I =
used a stethescope on the block, everything<br class=3D"">sounds okay - =
no<br class=3D"">> rapping and the valve train sounds "normal" and<br =
class=3D"">there were no weird<br class=3D"">> sounds coming from the =
crank.<br class=3D"">><br class=3D"">> I guess where I'm going =
with this is: if piston /<br class=3D"">head clearance is<br =
class=3D"">> too tight, I'll see some sort of indication on the<br =
class=3D"">piston, right?<br class=3D"">><br class=3D"">> TIA for =
any sage advice.<br class=3D"">><br class=3D"">> This is my first =
experience "decking" a block. I'd<br class=3D"">like to get it<br =
class=3D"">> right, I don't have the resources to start a new<br =
class=3D"">block from scratch.<br class=3D"">><br class=3D"">> =
Regards,<br class=3D"">><br class=3D"">> Bob Lang<br class=3D"">>=
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