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Re: [Bmcu] [British-cars] [TR] BMIHT Certificate Quandry

To: "'John Macartney'" <standardtriumph@btinternet.com>,
Subject: Re: [Bmcu] [British-cars] [TR] BMIHT Certificate Quandry
From: "wbeech" <wbeech@flash.net>
Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 23:45:07 -0600
John,

Thank you very kindly for a very clear 'day in the life' of this data that
we are all trying to access for our individual vehicles.  While the cert
that began this thread has very little additional data i.e no other recored
number, date of despatch or destination other than "USA", does the high body
number, 986001-TS, and it's format not seem odd to you as a production
number for this time, 1958? 

Also, after your explaination do you believe that the 'Build Record' that
John H. mentioned would carry any additional data for this car?

All the best,
BillB
TS/30766-LO


-----Original Message-----
From: british-cars-bounces@autox.team.net
[mailto:british-cars-bounces@autox.team.net] On Behalf Of John Macartney
Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2007 5:21 PM
To: triumphs@autox.team.net; british-cars@autox.team.net;
bmcu@autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [British-cars] [TR] BMIHT Certificate Quandry

At the risk of too many words on this issue, I'd like to speak on behalf of
the guys at BMIHT who issue the build certificates as they are known to me
personally and up to 2002, I periodically worked closely with them in the
determination of data before certificates could be issued to people who had
requested them. However, I think it's appropriate to scotch a myth (or two?)
in the process.

John Herrera wrote, "BMIHT certs come from records made before the car was
built. The records show how a car was planned to be built, but due to
shortages or parts availabilty the car may have been built differently from
the planned configuration. This explains why some cars differ from the BMIHT
certs."

With respect John, I'm inclined to think someone has 'led you up the garden
path' a bit on that statement :) Perhaps you're unaware of the importance
and accuracy of what was known in different factories as the "Works Card" or
"Build Record" and at Standard-Triumph as the "Prod Tally." This is the card
that went with every car through the production process. Not only does it
record all the production and line build fitments but it also records other
data that does not appear on the BMIHT record. With the exception of the
commission number that was always printed, all other numbers are
handwritten. They couldn't be typed or printed in advance because no-one
knew with absolute certainty what those numbers were going to be. An example
would be the piston grading for each engine - and that data will come from a
similar build card that followed an engine through its production until it
was mated up with the transmission and body at 'build drop.' Furthermore, it
would not be possible to build differently from the planned configuration
because in the event of production shortages, the car could not and would
not be released to the Sales Department or the delivery company until it
had:

1. Had all listed shortages rectified and fitted, and 2. Had passed final
inspection. That would take place only when all the shortages on the
shortage list had been fulfilled.

To pass off final inspection and final finish as well, no car could be
regarded as fully complete until it had had all the Quality Control and
Inspection Department stamps on the Works Card / Build Record / Prod Tally. 
Only when it had gone through this process could it be released to the Sales
Departments (Home or Export) who in turn would release it to the delivery
company to move it off site.

As Geoff Hahn wrote, "My understanding is that they are reading a microfilm
of a 3x5 card that traveled down the line with the vehicle -- subject to
grease stains, tea stains or whatever -- and may not have been all that
legible in the first place."

Geoff is almost right on the button in this case. While the Prod Tally was
highly legible as the car emerged from the Paint Shop, by the very nature of
the document, it did progressively get very grubby indeed and made later
interrogation saometimes very difficult. However, BMIHT don't just check the
"Prod Tally" for Standard-Triumph cars before issuing a certificate. As many
will know, *triangulation* is often the way to verify data. In this respect,
all the info on the "Prod Tally" is then compared against another
microfilmed copy of the original sales invoice to the importer (for export
markets) and the selling dealer for UK Home market. This invoice replicates
data from the Prod Tally and when the invoice was written (typed out on a
Roneo skin) the Prod Tally was the source only document. And again, on
shipments made after 1962 to the U.S. it was the factory's responsibility to
issue a Certificate of Origin for each and every car that was shipped. That
document was produced by another section within the Export Sales operation
and again, the "Prod Tally" was the info source. That general process
followed by BMIHT applies equally to all Austins, Austin Healeys, Land/Range
Rovers, Morrises, MG's, Rileys, Rovers and Wolseleys and there's one helluva
lot of enthusiasts for those makes wanting Certs as well!

Now I don't know what BMIHT currently does in the production of certificates
since I left four or so years back, but I know the guys who do the research
and as they're both enthusiasts themselves, they strive really hard to get
the info RIGHT the first time around. Okay, no-one can claim that
interpretation and typo mistakes aren't possible and I reckon those guys
concerned will admit they've made one or two. Usually if they have and it's
proven to them, they'll correct it and issue another certificate. But please
give them a break and understand what they're up against.

Speaking from personal experience when I occasionally helped them out when
the workload became excessive, I came to know what it was like to spend
several hours looking at a very 'grainy' microfilm of "Prod Tallies" then
invoices, then Certs of Origin to 'triangulate' the data I had and to ensure
it was right. Now that's bad enough, but when the person sending in the info
obviously can't write intelligible English (even though it's his mother
tongue) and his handwriting looks as though he did it with his left foot
while asleep, you'll comprehend that proving a vehicle's true origin can be
a pain in extremis.

I hope this does something to set the BMIHT record straight? As for the
sidescreen TR that had an overdrive but now seems to have lost it, my guess
is it was taken out at a later date after leaving the UK and now sits in
another car. Equally, where a body number on a vehicle doesn't tie up with
the original build record, anything could have happened and a body swap
after an accident or during an earlier rebuild is a very likely possibility.

Jonmac
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