On Saturday, March 8, 2003, at 02:45 AM, Eric Linnhoff wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
>> Really!! Legal cite, please?
>>
>> Because the Bern Convention on Copyright says otherwise, and has been
>> US Law since, when was it, '86? '89? Something like that.
> ==================================================
> The Berne Convention was far from only about copyrights. Mostly, it
> covered
> artistic materials but was written in 1971 greatly predating email and
> all
> of its spam-esque anomalies. And I've never heard Heyward referred to
> as
> artistic. _Autistic_, perhaps. ;^)
Ah. I see what is going on here. A little knowledge is a dangerous
thing.
The Berne Convention does indeed address copyrights. When the US
joined the treaty on March 1, 1989 the practical effect was supersede
several sections of the 1976 copyright law. In particular, a copyright
notice was no longer required for the author/creator of a work to have
copyright; copyright vested the moment the work was set it tangible
form.
> For starters, the poster doesn't have a copyright on the written
> material as
> I seriously doubt they deposited two copies with the US Copyright
> office of
> their "creation".
Irrelevant. For the simple form, see
http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html, the section on "HOW TO
SECURE A COPYRIGHT". The executive summary is in the header "Copyright
Secured Automatically upon Creation". Registration of a work with the
copyright office gives the copyright holder additional benefits, but is
not required to have the copyright.
> Secondly, it came to me via email though Yahoo. I didn't
> go to it. Sure I subscribe to the list but I do not subscribe to the
> original author. That makes it unsolicited, from the poster. Yahoo
> expressly claims unlimited redistribution rights of any submitted
> material.
> Also, since this is an "open" list, "fair use" redistribution is
> granted by
> the list server. It's black & white in their Terms of Service.
Yahoo can claim to own the moon, that doesn't make it so. If I type
in an AP news item or a story out of a magazine and mail it to a Yahoo
list that doesn't mean that Yahoo now has the right to redistribute it.
Add in the fact that one can be subscribed to a Yahoo list without
ever visiting Yahoo (by a group owner, for example) or reading their
'agreement', I rather doubt it would stand a serious court challenge.
Last, I really don't think they *want* ownership of everything that
comes through their lists; one kiddy-porn story could cause the company
a world of hurt.
And your argument is sophistic; when you joined the list, you
requested all mail sent to the list. Not that that matters in any way
with regard to copyright.
> Then there's the concept of "fair use".
Irrelevant, as you were talking about using the whole work.
> It also can't really be considered "intellectual property" because
> nobody is
> willing to pay the owner to use it such as is the case with books,
> magazine
> articles or music.
You really need to take a college level class on copyright. Or at
least read the web page I referred to above. Since you asked for
cites, I'll quote the web page referenced above:
"WHAT IS COPYRIGHT?
Copyright is a form of protection provided by the laws of the United
States
(title 17, U.S. Code) to the authors of original works of authorship,
including
literary, dramatic, musical, artistic, and certain other intellectual
works.
This protection is available to both published and unpublished works. "
You will note that it doesn't say "has to be paid for" in there. And
if you haven't seen some of the stuff that gets submitted to literary
magazines by unpublished authors, well, trust me, most of it is nothing
*anyone* would pay for. But it is protected by copyright just as much
as Steven King's next work.
> To put it plainly, it isn't physical property either so that dog won't
> hunt.
Ah. So the nightly news isn't copyrighted? (It isn't physical
property, as it is going in the camera, out the antenna and into your
tv. But just try to claim it to be public domain. Same for football or
baseball, just to name two.)
You are sorely misinformed. To quote the copyright office:
"WHAT WORKS ARE PROTECTED?
Copyright protects "original works of authorship" that are fixed
in a tangible form of expression. The fixation need not be directly
perceptible
so long as it may be communicated with the aid of a machine or device.
Copyrightable
works include the following categories:
literary works;
musical works, including any accompanying words
dramatic works, including any accompanying music
pantomimes and choreographic works
pictorial, graphic, and sculptural works
motion pictures and other audiovisual works
sound recordings
architectural works
These categories should be viewed broadly. For example, computer
programs
and most "compilations" may be registered as "literary works"; maps and
architectural plans may be registered as "pictorial, graphic, and
sculptural works"
> I have a greater claim to the pictures I have posted on my Geocities
> web
> page as copyrighted material. And I know of several places on the web
> that
> have (technically) illegally posted copies of my pictures.
You have exactly the same claim, not greater or lesser. You have a
copyright, the same way I have copyright on this letter.
Oh, and note, sending it to a mailing list counts as publication...
> Your turn David. Care to cite case examples of email copyright
> infringement? Oh yes, check out _my_ new disclaimer below.
I hope you don't mind if I simply quote the Copyright Office instead of
citing a court case:
http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ66.html:
"Copyright protects original authorship fixed in tangible form. 17
U.S.C. sec. 102(a).
For works transmitted online, the copyrightable authorship may consist
of text, artwork,
music, audiovisual material (including any sounds), sound recordings,
etc. Copyright
does NOT protect ideas, procedures, systems, or methods of operation.
17 U.S.C. sec.
102(b).
"Under U.S. law, copyright protection subsists from the time the work
is fixed. Copyright registration is not mandatory, but it has important
benefits. For general information
about copyright, request Circular 1, Copyright Basics. See For
Further Information
on page 4 on how to obtain circulars and other information."
Also note the section on Newsletters.
You might also find http://www.piercelaw.edu/tfield/mtct/mtct96.htm
interesting.
> Eric Linnhoff
> WARNING: I reserve the right to use any email you send
> to me as either a testimonial of how great our world is, or
> as an example of the stupid things people send to me via
> email. If you do not want your email to be used in such a
> manner, DON'T SEND IT!
You can't reserve a 'right' you don't have. In this particular case,
insistence on this would be foolish; it would either end up with you
being the only person posting to the list (kind of perverse, don't you
think?) or simply being kicked off it.
David
Been there, wrote the papers, got the degree.
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