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Re: A Friday Physics Problem

To: Jay Mitchell <jemitchell@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: A Friday Physics Problem
From: Doug Miller <drmiller@cyberhighway.net>
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 14:00:26 -0700
At 08:07 AM 11/22/99 -0800, Jay wrote:

Again I apologise if my timing is late - Digest only for me!

>If you start with tires that are much larger than optimum for the car's
>mass, the effect of the nonlinearity may still not be that great.

Enough to measure. Enough that I'd want the half weight car.

>> Ever wonder why "wider wheels/same tire compound" always gives
>> higher skid figures?
>
>Always? I've seen the opposite happen (admittedly in rare
>circumstances). 

On What?  Just curious. It would have to be a REALLY bad suspension
geometry to screw up a skid pad.

>> It is due to the non linear ness of the CF figure.
>> Which is why everyone tries to run wider wheels in SP over stock.
>
>Ever hear of "steering response?" That's as strong a motivation to go
>wider/lower profile as steady-state cornering. Autocross has relaitvely
>few steady-state features and lots of transient maneuvers.

Lower profile is a different issue, IMHO. Yes, lower profile does affect
steering response. As does shock settings, springs, sway bars, sidewall
stiffness/design and tire design.
But my argument is that the major benefit of wider wheels/tires is a higher
tire grip.

>> If the CF were truly linear then there
>> would be no advantage to a low CG on a skid pad.
>
>As I pointed by implication out earlier in this thread.

I think we are really agreeing on the basic points here. I'm 
sorry if I didn't understand the gist of what you were trying
to relay.

>No argument there. However, it is not true that a car's cornering
>capacity decreases in direct proportion to increases in weight, even if
>the tire sizes are the same.

;-)    ;-)    ;-)    ;-)

It is really tough sometimes to discuss something on the internet. I
guess I'm struggling with the nuances. As you wrote the statement
above, it follows my understanding. But if you are emphasizing the "direct
proportion", then I'm thinking that a better way to write teh statement
would be to say:
"It is TRUE that a car's cornering capacity decreases as weight is added", 
which may be exactly what you meant, but which I missed when reading 
your post.

>My autox car weighs 1330 lbs and has 8" rims with 225/45 tires, and I've
>gone to quite a bit of trouble to get it as low and as light as
>possible. Over the winter, it's getting lower still.

My car is a 2300 pound behemouth with 7 inch wide wheels.  I got LOTS of 
power, great transitional, but no steady state and crappy 60-0 times. I 
personally think that there are more steady states then most people think.
Which is why wings in A-Mod are so effective and CP guys are willing to 
widen their cars to get more rubber on the ground.

-Doug Miller



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